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40 mans: Not all they're cracked up to be...

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Destian, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    I realize that I'm making my very first post on this forum a semi-inflammatory one, but I still think this needs to be said...

    I raided 40 mans back in vanilla WoW, including Molten Core and Onyxia. A lot of people look back on those with fondness. While I did enjoy finally getting bosses down, I can safely say these were NOT the most epic experiences of my WoW career, and I'll explain why at the end of the following list...

    Six Reasons 40 mans aren't all they're cracked up to be

    1. The primary purpose of such a large raid size was to slow endgame progression

    Endgame progression in vanilla WoW was sluggish, and it had to be because Blizzard wasn't exactly introducing new content to the game at breakneck speeds. Every raid boss in Molten Core dropped 3 pieces of loot, meaning that it would literally take months upon months to gear up everyone in the raid.

    Later, systems were added to the game to make this molasses-slow progression obsolete and completely unnecessary for the experience.

    2. "Challenging" and "Tedious" are not the same thing

    40 mans were difficult to manage by nature. This wasn't just because you were trying to get 40 people to march in the same direction. It was also because, the more people in a raid, the more things that could possibly go wrong. Was it fun to wipe because one healer screwed up and let a tank go down or because one tank missed a taunt? Player error aside, when a single player in a 40 man had internet connection issues, it could mean the other 39 players were going to suffer for it.

    At some point, it's no longer a question of "challenge" but simple bad luck. It wasn't fun then and it's not going to be fun now when a raid wipes because an esper misses a skillshot heal on a tank.

    Just hope that the devs aren't fond of "make or break" mechanics that all players must avoid or the raid wipes: All it takes is 1 person in 40 to have a lag spike at the wrong time and it's GG.

    3. Particle effects...X40!

    All too often, 40 man raiding was more of a test to see whose computer was beefy enough to handle it than individual player skill.

    That aside, what happens when we miss telegraphs because you're standing in a large group of players and cannot even SEE the ground?

    4. 40 may as well be 100, or 1,000

    Unless the folks at Carbine are going to be extremely clever, there's another problem with 40 man raids that will persist in Wildstar: There is never a time when any one player is going to be interacting with the other 39 members of the group.

    Think about it: Healers are assigned to tanks, tanks are assigned to bosses or off-tanking, DPS are assigned to specific adds.

    The portion of the fight you're individually going to be assigned to will likely be a subset of a bigger fight, and that means the rest of the fight is barely in your periphery, let alone the players taking part in it.

    Even in gigantic 40 person tank-n-spanks, you'll have a hard time convincing me that you couldn't subtract 20 players and 50% of the boss' health and not have the exact same experience.

    5. Less like a guild, more like a corporation

    Assembling and maintaining a 40 man raid is a herculean task, but one of the bigger perils of doing so is the risk of the raid splintering. The larger the raid, the more informal the overall experience will be (more on this later) and the easier it for players to walk away, lured by another guild with the promise of better loot.

    In fact, vanilla WoW's 40 man raids were notorious for giving rise to a system where players used guilds as stepping stones to better guilds, and "headhunter" guilds were perfectly happy to steal the best-geared members from each other.

    The end result was an endgame that felt a lot more like a job market and raiding that felt like a day at the office: Show up with bunch of strangers at the same time and place, do your job, don't be disruptive, then get paid (usually in DKP).

    Even the biggest, most successful raiding guilds always seemed to succumb to splintering and fell apart in the end.

    6. No one has 39 REAL friends

    As I mentioned at the beginning of the post, I raided in 40 mans in vanilla WoW, but I can safely say that the absolute most EPIC raid experience I ever had was when we finally downed Ragnaros...in Firelands with my 10 man when I returned to WoW years later.

    Why? Because I knew these 9 people. I LIKED these 9 people. Unlike the hulking roster of 40 from vanilla, I enjoyed the company of every person in this raid. When we finally achieved victory over Rags, it was something we could all celebrate together because we hadn't just done it as a group of 10 players but a group of 10 FRIENDS.

    Ultimately, we play MMOs for the social connections we make, and 40 man raids don't exactly foster socialization. Aside from the fact that everyone needs to be silent so the raid leader can be heard, there's not much point in growing too attached to any of your co-workers because the odds of them leaving for a better job are fairly high.

    When I raided with a 10 man, I was able to do so with people I liked. Odds are, players raiding in a 40 man are going to be doing so with at least one player they DON'T like, and forcing players to deal with people they hate for the sake of progression is the first step toward encouraging players to ask themselves "Is this worth it?".

    In conclusion, I feel that 40 mans are the wrong way to go.

    Aside from them being laggy and conflicting with WildStar's own mechanics, aside from the fact that the number of players has little relevance on your own personal experience, aside from the "job market" they give rise to, a 40 man raid doesn't help in the one thing every MMO should be trying to do for it's playerbase: Give them a group of FRIENDS they'll want to play the game with for years to come.
  2. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    This may sound cheeky...but my conclusion is that you are just a few years too late to make them reconsider. It's comming! Weither it fails or succeeds...I personally think only time will tell.

    Your only comparison for 40 mans was WoW......trust me when I say that with 1 example you can't say some of this stuff for certain.
  3. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    <Mod Face> Keep posts constructive and not inflammatory </Mod Face>
  4. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    I can say for certain that all of this was an issue in WoW and, unless Carbine has figured out some means of changing basic human nature, we WILL see it again here.

    And yeah, I recently discovered Wildstar so I realize 40 mans are already in.

    I highly suspect Carbine will learn the same lesson Bliz's devs did from vanilla.
    Mountebank likes this.
  5. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    The only thing "hardcore" about 40 mans was the "hardcore" headhunting that went on.

    40 man mechanics typically need to be dumbed way down because you have to manage so many more players.
  6. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    Ok, thanks for stopping by, I guess we'll see you when Carbine finally learns their lesson.
    schmell likes this.
  7. Mel

    Mel Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have never attempted to join a raid of such magnitude... That being said, I am totally willing to try them on for size! I figure that most groups will be pugs formed from the general chat channel. But content of epic size could be epic. As for the amounts of loot, you win some, you lose some. I am sure you can tone down spell effects from other players in some way? I am sure you will not need the best rig to run the content? But it may just give me a reason to upgrade my system.......
  8. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Also you talk like you only listed problems that can only be solved by changing humans.....

    Yet you listed multiple things that can be taken care of without changing mankind!
    For example:
    Also no offence but this below is your own personal feeling towards that process. I had a completely different experience from that time.....guess you were just in the wrong guilds then....to bad for you though.
    Wendo, Saybel, Ianpact and 2 others like this.
  9. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    I intend to give the game a try anyway, but it's not difficult to see what's going to wind up happening down the road.

    I didn't mean to imply that some of it isn't related to game mechanics, but the underlying issues of human behavior are still there and still going to rear their ugly heads.

    And it WILL happen here.

    Will people join 40 man raiding guilds for:

    A) The friendship and camaraderie they feel toward 39 other players they barely know.

    or

    B) Loot.

    When approached by another guild with the promise of better gear, will these same players:

    A) Stick around because they don't want to betray a group of people they barely know and only joined up with for a shot at personal reward anyway.

    or

    B) Leave for the promise of better gear.

    40 man raid guilds are, by nature, unstable and largely transient. In a 10-20 man situation, anyone in the group getting an upgrade will help the entire group. With the amount of turnover in 40 man situations, another player getting a piece of gear just meant they were more likely to be headhunted.

    It made the entire game a mercenary situation where everyone was in it for themselves, and the fact that even the most successful raiding guilds often fell to pieces speaks volumes about this.

    40 man:
    -Isn't necessary to craft an epic and challenging experience
    -Isn't necessary to drag out progression
    -Isn't conducive to players finding guilds they can call "home"

    ...And nothing short of a drastic change in basic human nature is going to fix that.

    If you never saw headhunter guilds and splintering guilds during vanilla, you need to double-check and make sure you weren't playing Team Fortress or something. ;)
    Mountebank likes this.
  10. lacrimstein

    lacrimstein Cupcake

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    What are "Guild Circles"? I've heard of "Circles", but not "Guild Circles" before. Is it going to be something similar to alliances in GW1? That would be a great feature!
  11. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    Honestly just a terrible troll, hitting all the same basic points that every other bad troll hits. It's always Molten Core, and always too hard to get 40 people together. Translation = bad player in bad guild

    Awesome, then your problem is solved since there will be 20mans.
  12. GoatSlayrr

    GoatSlayrr Well-Known Cupcake

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    A little late, but a friendly bit of advice...

    Spitting on people's rose colored glasses doesn't help them see things better, it just gets them that much closer to the inevitable blind rage about casuals ruining games.

    But anyway...

    /popcorn
    Crminimal, Sayantan, Sarpadon and 8 others like this.
  13. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    its probably the same thing, I just used the phrase to describe small guilds who can ally together and chat with each other. It will allow smaller guilds to form up and do 20/40 content without having 1 big guild. ....so whichever it's called, this has been announced months ago for that purpose.
  14. filanwizard

    filanwizard Cupcake-About-Town

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    I experienced much bigger raids in EQ and trust me a big guild still can end up feeling like family. My EQ guild I even still know some of the people. Try a 72man raid from the EQ days and that was after they did instances... before that they got much bigger and amazingly everybody knew each other.

    Guild members being transient is not a function of 40man raiding but in MMOs it is generally a function of flags/keys/attunement, It is also a function of someone who wants to be at the top rather than someone looking for a guild to call home. progression raiding and a guild to call home are not exclusive of each other, My EQ guild was #1 on the server for a long time but we rarely lost members and never poached directly.
  15. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    My guess is he's talking about guilds that are too small to field a 40 man team of their own so they get together to do so. I did this in vanilla, myself: In truth, it doesn't make anything better.

    The majority of the issues do not stem from the difficulty in managing 40 people (it's an issue, but far from the deal-breaker) but the issues surrounding the environment created by such large raid groups.

    It turns the endgame into a corporate environment where, ironically, you wind up being more at odds with the people on your own faction than the enemy faction.

    If you think things will be different for Wildstar, give me SOME reasons. Has Combine mentioned anything they're doing to prevent guild hopping, headhunting, etc.?
  16. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    Then you experienced a fantastic rarity and should count yourself lucky.

    On Alleria, the headhunting and guild collapse were unbelievably commonplace.

    "Steppingstone" guilds were routinely screwed-over by this: Their 40 man got some gear, then the most geared people would be headhunted. They'd bring in some new people and do some more gearing, only to experience more headhunting. It put these guilds on a slippery slope that was extremely difficult to climb.
  17. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh, I know, and I'm fully prepared for that.

    I'm not worried: They'll remember what I've said here when they think everything is going great in their 40 man, only to wake up one morning to learn that the 15 most geared people have left to join another guild. :)
  18. Ripper McGee

    Ripper McGee Founding Member

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    I, too, played original EQ (Lanys server), pre-WoW, and I can definitely attest to the raids being "work". Yes, they "could" be fun, barring full wipes, corpse runs, ninja looting, party-balancing, etc... and yes, reputation was everything back in the day and everybody knew everybody. There were still jerk guilds and poachers even back then - always were, always will be.

    I can see the OPs point, to a certain extent. What mechanisms will be in place to emphasize fun, not just grinding and guild/raid management.?
  19. Kujaix

    Kujaix New Cupcake

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    1. The Primary reason for WS 40 man Raids is for people who like them or want to try them out. I doubt in 2014 we will have bosses dropping three pieces of gear or that there is any possibility of downing a 40 man and getting absolutely nothing.

    2. Honestly this is an issue with any group content not 40 mans. Tank wipes, Dps breaks CC or pull too much aggro, and healer can't keep up all can happen regardless of the size of the group. This is actually worse in smaller groups. Fist person I have heard say 1 person could wipe the entire 40 man. I have heard nothing but stories of people going AFK during bosses. People going AFK or 1 person screwing everything up are issues with how the boss was designed. Not inherent to 40-mans.

    3. I'm sure the Devs have thought of this. Think a bigger issue is everyone running around like GW2's big fights.

    4. How is this any different than attacking Deathwing's toe in a 10 man or on add duty in a 25 man? This is also a very personal issue. Maybe some people enjoy being a giant cog in a machine.

    5. Again personal and also not solely the fault of 40 man raids. I believe the difficulty in gearing up Raiders played a large part in this. Obviously if it took incredibly long for people to gear up the people who did it more quickly would seek each other in order to play the next raid.

    6. This is just a big anecdote full of a lot of assumptions on on how other people think. Not everyone cares about the social club in an MMO. Some of us do just like to level, fight big bosses, then go on with our lives. Also a giant assumption it will be as bad as you think.

    How do you know that? None of us have any idea how their Raid(s) will be designed. Obviously they are not going to include a WoW style raid in their own game.

    Let's not speak for other people. Many people like chaotic ground wars which is the worst WS Raids will be. Unlike a Raid in WoW we know we'll be moving constantly.
    Mathness likes this.
  20. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    There are no "mechanisms in place to emphasize fun", if you don't like raiding and dont like the ups and downs that come with a large team activity, then don't do it.
    Livnthedream, Vyril and BLAPPiN like this.

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