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40 mans: Not all they're cracked up to be...

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Destian, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Dexsoul

    Dexsoul New Cupcake

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    I'm not trying to halve the raids in two. I'm just saying that keeping with the number 40 just because of nostalgia purposes doesn't warrant the hassle of logistics when they could reduce the size a bit, 30-34, and achieve the same effect. 6 more people won't give you an extra feeling of "epic & immersion" but in the logistic department it would give you some breathing room to work with. The difference in the raid size also makes it easier for 1 guild to reach maybe 2 cores with a positive effect on the guild (officers training new recruits in the 2nd core), resulting in more people raiding instead of benching for a possible spot in the only core available which many times results in people leaving. It's a better scenario all around.
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  2. WavE

    WavE Cupcake-About-Town

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    People are mainly arguing for the idea that less people in a raid is a more stable model according to past successful ( and unsuccessful ) mmos. However without knowing the reason why carbine made this design decision the thread has just gone back and forth, and become even volatile due to everyone's very different experiences in raiding.
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  3. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    And i would argue that 6 people makes a negligible difference in logistics. Honestly i don't think the difference between 30 and 40 would be noticeable in the slightest.
  4. Dexsoul

    Dexsoul New Cupcake

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    If you really think 10 people won't make a difference in logistics, well... you don't have much experience as an officer then. 10 possible healers, 10 possible tanks, and they wouldn't make a difference, really?

    Then why not 50 then. The bigger, the better epic feeling, right? Wasn't that the whole argument? Hell why not go to EQ roots, since it doesn't make a difference.

    It boggles my mind the fixation with a number decided 10 years ago like it is some sort of dogma till the end of times.
  5. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    There is no fixation, 50 would be fine with me too. I just want something bigger then 25.
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  6. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    lol . wow people just wont let it go.
  7. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    No it doesn't because what is often a bench for you won't be a core raider for someone else. This is why keeping friends on family around to be able to fill in holes is so important, and Carbine realizes that. Its a big part of why there is so much overlap between gear and why they are overlapping content types so much to make pvpers want to have raiders around (bosses for Warplots) and for both pvpers and raiders to keep those who solo around (for easier access to rare materials).

    Your "community" argument also has no basis in fact. Once you get past 2-300 people groups naturally break down into sub communities anyway. Instead of being person being part of the community you become part of a community, or rather several communities with overlap. You can't poach a player who is happy where they are at. Just like how you can't turn a fan of cake into a fan of pie at the drop of a hat.

    Implying nostalgia is bad:


    Sounds like you are more annoyed with having to actually use those social skills in a genre predicated on social interaction. Boo hoo?
  8. Hypoxia

    Hypoxia New Cupcake

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    Over that past few weeks, I have noticed an ever growing trend of negative pushback toward the 40 man raid system. I have seen a lot of individuals making blanket statements about how their feelings toward 40 man raids are shared by the general community. What I’d like to post is a forum that combats the negativity, highlights people who enjoy, and are looking forward to the 40 man format.

    I am a 30 year old software engineer that works in the field of gaming (not Carbine). I was baptized into competitive gaming at 18 years old when I would ditch school and play CS1.6 at my local lan center. Then came WoW and ended the FPS saga of my life. I was young at the time but was apart of a great guild “RUN”, that was one of many 40 man raiding guilds on Frostwolf. We had a few slow night to start but it didn’t take long before we were in and out of MC, or AQ within four hours. I look back on those raid fondly, not just because of content, but largely due to having so many people on at once. There were a ton of jokes and a lot of fooling around but somewhere in there a boss would die.

    For those who would argue that 40 mans were hell, I’d say you weren't with the right people. A major factor in our success was our leadership. The men and women who organized and lead us were great but could be unforgiving at times. I even lost a few raid spots to my own immaturity and lack of responsibility. Now the tables have turned and I am the leader. There is a ton of work that goes on behind the scenes and it took time before I was good at it. But now I have a great guild, a great group of friends, and a well oiled raid machine that is fully capable of killing bosses when we need to.

    One aspect I've struggled with over that last few years of guild leading is the limited raid sizes that many games have gone with. I was shocked and excited when I heard that Wildstar was incorporating 40 man raids. It didn’t take long for my phone and email to blow up with old friends and raid members asking if we were “Putting the band back together”. My response “Hells *#%^ing yes we are!”

    All though I do not consider myself hard core, I am well organized. I’ve haven’t needed to raid 40 hours a week to keep up with progression. We may not always get the first kill on the server but we we're never far behind. My point is the only thing dated about hardcore raiding is the term “hard core raiding”. There are those of us that know how to get <REDACTED> done and just because there are individuals out there that have had bad experiences, please don’t speak for the rest of us. You are comparing a 10 year old raiding system made by a different company to a system that no one has any facts about. Blizzard stated 1% of players participated in 40 man raids at a time when only (a guess, I could be wrong) 500,000 players played. Thats about 5,000 total players. Of that, how many do you honestly think are still around to play Wildstar? 10 percent? So that leaves us will 500 players with any real experience with 40 man raids. Now my numbers could very well be off, but the point I'm trying to make is only a fraction of the players out there actually had a credible opinion. And there are plenty of us who had positive experiences. Please stop talking for the rest of us, we are capable of speaking for ourselves thank you.

    Another complaint people have been jumping on is developing content for the 1% is not fair. I do not understand this philosophy. I roll one character that I spend 90% of my time on. That's one class, one race, one story, one play through. I would argue that a large majority of players are similar in this regard. Even still, I am a raider. I do not PvP particularly in arenas. Why? I AM NOT GOOD AT IT! And yet you do not hear a clamor for Aeneas to be dumbed down or removed. The players who are at the top got there the same way I got to the top of raiding; a <REDACTED> ton of practice and experience. What I'm trying to say is there will always be a part of a video game that does not get explored by the entire player base. If large scale raiding is one of them, so be it.

    The moral of the story is there is a population of players that do want 40 man raids. Why can’t Carbine cater to us? Why must our preferred playstyle be removed from game? In todays world of gaming it is no longer possible to appeal to everyone and that just how life is. But there are a ton of other options as well. I do not have the option of raiding 40 man content in any other game. I’m not telling you that you have to come to my raids or even play Wildstar for that matter, so please don’t tell me that I can’t have my 40 man raid because you can’t make them work.

    Sorry the wall of text...
    ~Hypoxia
    lacrimstein and zook1n1 like this.
  9. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    This belongs in the other thread as its still the same topic.
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  10. zook1n1

    zook1n1 New Cupcake

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    When people say "40 mans were hell", I think they are experiencing the opposite of the "golden age" effect, where they only remember the terrible times they had in WoW's 40-man raids. Here's a simple fact a lot of these people seem to forget: If you were spending 4-6 hours a day, a couple days a week farming MC, BWL, and Onyxia, you weren't having a bad time. Nobody sits down and does something they hate for 4-6 hours unless they're completely insane. I understand that 40 mans weren't perfect, but they were a hell of a lot of fun, for a lot of people. For me, it wasn't the fact that it was 40 people, it was the fact that I was teaming up with a TON of other people to kill a very powerful boss over the Internet. I had never experienced anything like that ever before, and I became addicted to it. Some of it was tedious, yes...but MOST of it was awesome.

    Later on, Blizzard made improvements like reducing the raid size, so I'm not saying the system was perfect but it was truly amazing for a lot of people, including me. If you were slamming your head against a boss repeatedly for hours on end and you weren't having fun, then the issue, for you, was with the game as a whole and not with the raid size.

    So, in effect: it doesn't make sense when people claim '40 mans were hell' like that one simple variable made the game unplayable. If you were there to experience it, you were having fun, because if you weren't having fun, you would have quit, unless you're insane.
  11. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    That is not actually accurate. There is a difference between "fun" and conditioning. Whether that comes from peer pressure, the need for more performance, the need for social ladder "respect", or even just the jackpot like rush of winning a piece of loot, people the world over have proven time and again they will go to unhealthy lengths to achieve a goal. I firmly believe that many of those people didn't have fun in a 40 man scenario, but its not at the fault of the 40 man.
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  12. CriSPeH

    CriSPeH Cupcake-About-Town

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    There are 40-man Raids -> ppl complain about there being 40-man raids
    There are no 40-man Raids -> ppl complain about the absence of 40-man raids.

    It has nothing to do with the Raids!
    Livnthedream likes this.
  13. Dexsoul

    Dexsoul New Cupcake

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    Bench are usually new members with no previous relation to the guild, mate. Your guild is rare if the total of bench people is composed of family/friends. And highly unlikely to be a hardcore guild if it were the case cause I really doubt you have 10-15 hardcore friends/family that would sit on bench. Or maybe your definition of friends is different than mine.

    Happy? Are we really talking about progression status guilds? Cause it looks like you are talking about casual guilds that raid rarely when they can maybe once or twice per week. Progression guilds are about doing content at a different pace than your mom & pop friends guild. Happiness is out of the picture if competition is on the line. Moreover if the game is getting a system ranking like the one Carbine is trying to introduce, being in perpetual recruitment will be key in order to keep up. The type of players that are usually attracted to that type of competitive context aren't the type that would refuse upgrading to a better positioned guild, if the one they are in is struggling in a certain boss. It happens in other esports/sports/activities all the time, why wouldn't it happen here?

    My argument is that the feeling of immersion is BS. If only it was so simple to indulge people. then why not increase it more and make raids of 50 or 60 people? Wouldn't that feel a lot more epic, "complex" and refreshing since it hasn't been done since pre wow times? No, waving the 40 man flag over your nostalgia goggles as a hook is more efficient, just a bit underwhelming from my goggles and less interested considering some of the issues those sizes of raids tend to create.

    I guess criticizing something about Wildstar in a site crowded with Wildstar fans is controversial and unproductive. Lesson learned. There really is no point in continuing the discussion, just let the thread die.

    All we have to do is wait and see how Carbine resolves the common issues that usually arise, since as stated by them, "it's an experiment".
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  14. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    No, "top end" hardcore guilds have a thorough bench, usually with a running alt raid too so they can switch out on the fly at all minutes. Its easy for them to recruit because those kinds of players are always willing to join. That isn't "poaching". Poaching is coercing a players from another guild to join yours, which if the player is happy, either through progression or environment, they won't. Also, do not pretend that the majority of this thread is actually talking about one of the top 50 guilds, that is absurd and you know it.

    Eq topped out at 400k subs, Vanilla WoW topped out at 8m. The nostalgia factor is just a little different there don't you think? Sure, "40 man" is arbitrary, after all 42 man or even 36 mans make more sense (7 or 6 of each class respectively instead off the odd numbers) but that isn't what they chose to go with. Even the "problems" are not really an issue of size as those same problems occur in 25/20 mans. You could argue that size is an exponential increase, but again, that is all an issue of social skills, much of which is determined by the leadership. If "social problems" incurred by raid size were such a problem, then why was there an almost unanimous front put up by top guilds in Vanilla damning Blizzard because cutting 15 players from their raid sucked? http://wow.joystiq.com/2006/08/14/death-and-taxes-on-the-raid-size-change/ Reading the responses there are rather telling too, especially with how Carbine has said they want the endgame population to work.

    Don't even start that "You're picking on me" <REDACTED>. I have been rather vocal in criticizing Carbine on multiple topics, including raiding. Simply put, your arguments suck because there is no ground to stand on. You don't like it, fine, don't do them. If you want to try an convince someone to agree with you, you need to try harder than arguments that are easily seen through.
  15. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    <Mod Face> Threads merged. </Mod Face>
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  16. WavE

    WavE Cupcake-About-Town

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    which threads??
  17. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    All of them
  18. WavE

    WavE Cupcake-About-Town

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    dammmmmmmmn
  19. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am putting together a video of the pros and cons on 40 man raids.

    I am looking for both sides but please keep your personal feeling out of this thread, I want experiences over "I was screwed once therefore I hate them."


    Edit: I know there is a large thread on raids but it's different and not what I am looking for.
  20. Wendo

    Wendo Cupcake

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    Syn and Livnthedream like this.

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