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40 mans: Not all they're cracked up to be...

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Destian, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Huge thread already going on this topic. Enjoy :)
  2. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm writing this knowing that someone has probably already said it in this behemoth of a thread, but here goes.

    I've been in other threads on other websites about this same topic. And there was without a doubt a lot of controversy. From what I've gathered from others, people are concerned only about the difficulty about two main things:
    1.) getting all of the people together
    2.) 40 man mechanics requiring very little skill

    The first doesn't need explanation. People are concerned about getting that much people to cooperate together. Fair enough, but it's doable. 40 people isn't really that much in an MMORPG. Hell, with open world raid bosses, it happens instantly.

    For the second, it seems that everyone is only concerned about what they've gone through in past experiences. And here is what I kept saying; they have no idea how the content of these raids will look. They've been so disappointed with their 40 man experiences, that they think that's the only way it can be. But how many 40 man raids have they actually done? Three? Four? And all from one game.

    Instead of speculating how the raids could be put together properly - how Carbine might be designing them in order to avoid past mistakes - people just kept dredging up the past. It wasn't until 9 pages into the thread that somebody finally said, "Wait, what if they aren't making "Onyxia in Space'?"

    I'm thinking (and hoping) that 40 man raids will turn out having not only the difficulty of organizing and managing groups, but also content that takes advantage of the size of your party without simply adding more health to a single boss. The problem with past 40 man raids seemed to be that all 40 members of the group had the same goal; take that mother-trucker down, regardless of whether you were healing, tanking, or spanking.

    There's a lot of potential that Carbine has with these raids. People assume that they'll be in giant, dome-like rooms, with a giant mob in the middle for everyone to glare at menacingly for 15-20 minutes. No one has thought of the possibility of their raid groups end up in separate rooms, for instance.

    Going back to WoW (since it's the only game that actually had 40 man raids), I don't think it was the size of the raid that was the problem, but the content they were designed with. People forget that the game mechanics back in vanilla weren''t exactly thrilling. Hell, look at Ragnaros' mechanics: throwing fire about and a knockback. Woooow.

    I think some of the encounters in WotLK would have made amazing 40 man content, or at lease something similar. Particularly, the Thorim encounter from Ulduar, and the Thaddius encounter from Naxx. These are two examples of an encounter that require your raid group to do two separate objectives.

    For those who are unfamiliar, in the Thorim fight, one team is in charge of fighting off waves of enemies, while the other is in charge of breaking though a gauntlet of different fights to get to the main boss. The gauntlet group needs to get to the boss fast enough because the waves will not stop coming until they do. Once they reach the top, the raid comes together again, and you start fighting Thorim himself, which has a variety of mechanics on his own. Of course, if one group fails, then the whole encounter is failed.

    The Thaddius encounter requires the raid to be split in half again, although the objectives are more similar and the group is working together more. Honestly, the Thorim encounter is a much better example. This time, the objective is to fight two separate mini-bosses. If either mini-boss is dragged off of their platforms, the raid is wiped. However, from time to time, the mini-bosses toss the tanks toward each other, meaning that the tanks have now swapped places, and they have to taunt the opposite mini-boss before they leave their respective platforms and wipe the raid. meanwhile, the DPS needs to make sure that each mini-boss' health remains at a similar percentage.


    Like I've said, 40 mans don't need to be a bunch of people smacking a giant dragon, but people assume that this is how it will be because it's what they've seen in the past. That being said, I'm crossing my fingers until they bleed. I'm being optimistic, but from we've seen from the 5-mans, it seems like Carbine is developing really heavily into these telegraphs. I know, I know, we've only seen the level 20 content, but all we ever hear about in this game is "telegraphs this, telegraphs that." I just hope they know that they need to have other encounter mechanics in addition to telegraphs.
  3. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sprac thank you for actually posting on topic. Great post!


    To anyone the other posters. I am perfectly aware of that thread but it too negative and has more emotion then I want.

    If your going to post please be on topic, other wise please PM me.
  4. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah, I ended up posting it in that thread as well, but honestly, posting anything in a 30 page thread is a little disheartening; it may as well be dead at that point. Also, I appreciated the "stop being so GD negative" rule. A little objectivity would be great.
  5. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah the negative posts about raiding were starting to annoying me. I get that if someone didn't have a good experience but I've found that it's mostly been their fault and they are just butt hurt about not getting their pixel staff.
  6. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    I think your opinion on 40mans is already set in stone from reading this.


    <Mod Face> The thread is still just discussing 40mans however so I am merging it into the big topic. </Mod Face>
  7. TuxedoMask

    TuxedoMask Cupcake

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    Outside of the normal things, the thing I'm most worried about is Server Population. The highest populated Servers will have the best guilds that Raid consistently or just More guilds. So beside having to get 40people and all the other pre-req which is tough enough, being on a low or medium server just puts you at a further disadvantage, when if you were on a higher populated Server you would have more consistent groups just because there are more people on that Server to pick from.

    I saw a bit on how they are doing Crossrealm things and idk, just worries me because that Redacted, was that or is that suppose to say Raids? There isn't any crossrealm trading though so how would the distribution of loot work if it does allow for xrealm grouping into raids.

    "There are some limitations to our systems, however. We sadly can’t allow you to explore the world as a whole with your friends; as the world would quickly become too crowded. But anytime you enter instanced content, whether through battlegrounds, dungeons, arenas, or <REDACTED>, your entire party will all be able to play together. There is also a limitation on being able to trade items. Because we feel the economy on every realm is very important to maintaining the economic stability of the realm, you cannot trade with your friends from other realms."
  8. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    Don't merg the threads.... The point was to have a place to get info for my video I am doing in a place that wasn't all butt hurt gamers.... I don't want to read threw all this negative <REDACTED>...wtf. GG mods
    TuxedoMask likes this.
  9. lacrimstein

    lacrimstein Cupcake

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    Loot distribution has nothing to do with trade, with the exception of Master Loot. My guess is that there will be a dedicated interface for that.
  10. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    GG trying to circumvent the entire point of a forum.
  11. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    To have different threads for discussing different topics? My bad :p
  12. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Its not a different topic, which is why the thread got merged. Wanting to start a new topic to "get away from all the negativity" when the negativity just so happens to be the other side of the argument is against the very idea of a forum.
  13. WavE

    WavE Cupcake-About-Town

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    your flaw their is there is not just two sides to this discussion.

    Also wanting to diverge a very volatile topic into a less volatile one is a noble and even correct thing to do in my opinion.
  14. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    You don't have to convince him, but you do have to convince the mods, since they would be the ones "trimming" said thread of any "volatile" posts in order to keep things nice.....not to mention technically the Op would have to agree whats nice and what isn't because obviously this thread "isn't" according to him.
    Livnthedream and teh_ninjaneer like this.
  15. WavE

    WavE Cupcake-About-Town

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    I would say the mods are trimming a bit more then the fat out of this thread...

    That aside though, I think the main point we can get out of this thread is that many people have many very different opinions on the subject.

    And that those opinions however elegantly put or negative, matter absolutely zero when it comes to what carbine is about to do for raiding. ><D

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