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A Better Loot System: Opt-in Master Looter

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Acidblood, Apr 6, 2013.

  1. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    Edit: I've changed some of the wording and layout to hopefully explain it a bit better. Also pictures!

    With the details of Circuit Board Crafting recently released there has been a lot of unease about it's potential for increasing loot drama due to the extraction mechanic. Now rather than throw this mechanic out (as it is a good way to remove items from the game), I propose that WildStar simply have a better loot system than the standard of rolling on loot, which let's face it, isn't particularly good to begin with... Edit: If you would like to argue that it is, please by all means spell out it's virtues and how to solve it's flaws.

    Presenting the Opt-in Master Looter system:
    The basis of the system is that everyone gets their own loot (Edit: i.e. Personal Loot) that only they can see and pick up; so no more need/greed/pass and no more ninjas! However unlike standard systems of this type, in order to facilitate the sharing of loot in groups, and especially in organised raids, you can opt to give your loot rights to someone else; that person then becomes your nominated master looter. By opting in and giving your loot rights to a master looter any loot that you would have gotten, beyond a given threshold, instead goes into a pool (along with any of the master looters loot) to be distributed later by that master looter.

    Scenario 1: On a guild dungeon run the group leader could be a nominated master looter and the other 4 party members opt-in at the rare loot level. All rare or better loot that drops for any of the party members now goes into the master looters pool to be distributed at the master looters discretion. Note that loot in the pool can only be given to someone who was opted in to the master looter for the items rarity level at the time that that particular item dropped. The timing of when the loot is distributed is entirely up to the master looter and can be done even after the group has disbanded.

    Diagram 1: 5 man group with single master looter.
    [​IMG]

    So why the opt-in, why not just impose master looter in groups, or have 'group loot'?
    I'm glad you asked. Basically by making it so that players can opt-in to a master looter it means they don't have to trust anyone they don't want to. Edit: It also allows for more complex scenarios than an all or nothing system, but more on that later.

    Scenario 2: In contrast to the example above, say you are doing a pug with a friend, or even just a casual raid. You and your friend may decide that you are going to be a master looter so you can share loot drops with each other. No one else in the group has to opt-in to you as their master looter, they can just keep all their loot to themselves, but of course by not opting in they don't get to share in your or your friends loot either.

    Diagram 2: Combination of personal loot and master looter.
    [​IMG]

    Opt-in master looting also has one other big advantage; multiple master looters in the same group.
    Yes, that's right, by essentially giving players the ability to give their loot right to anyone else in the group or raid, i.e. opting in to a master looter, you can set up complex master looting scenarios supported directly by the game itself.

    Scenario 3: Say 3 guilds of different sizes, and with their own loot thresholds and ideas for distributing loot join forces to do a raid. With the opt-in master looter system you can easily set it up so that each guild has their own master looter with each guilds respective members loot drops going into their master looters pool. Each guild can then use their own rules for distribution (DKP, EPGP, etc.) and distribute their loot at a time that best suits them, no inter-guild dramas, no fuss.

    Diagram 3: Multiple master looters.
    [​IMG]

    A quick note on implementation...
    With a good UI this system should be very easy to understand and manage, and being built into the game you should be able to have all sorts of stats and tracking so that everything is transparent to everyone. And if it really scares you, just pretend it's a run of the mill Personal Loot system and don't even think about it.

    Mock-up of UI
    No yet opted in
    [​IMG]
    - Click Nominate or Opt In to nominate someone as your master looter. They would receive a message box asking them to accept.

    Opted in
    [​IMG]
    - Click Opt Out to go back to Personal loot

    Master Looter
    [​IMG]
    - Click Step Down to stop being a Master Looter, returning all those opted to you back to Personal Loot.

    Pool loot distribution
    [​IMG]
    Items would be tagged with the player they dropped for and anyone else eligible to be given that item. As a fail safe any undistributed loot would automatically be sent to the person it drop for after a period of time, e.g. 7 days.

    Note: These are just quick mock-ups, I'm sure the final UI would look much nicer and have more features. Also any reference to any persons or guilds is purely coincidental.

    To address some common concerns raised so far in this thread:
    It's too complicated.
    If you don't want to dig into the depths of the system that's perfectly fine, it will just act like a Personal Loot system for you.

    Personal Loot = Everyone has to get something.
    This is a fundamental misconception. Yes, other games generally do it that way (IMO a flaw), but it does not have to be done that way, especially since this system supports loot sharing via a master looter. Yes loot will be dropped by a different formula compared to rolled on loot, but that does not mean any more needs to be given out on average.

    It reduces social interaction by removing the need to talk about loot.
    If everyone is just in Personal Loot mode then yes, but how is that really any different than everyone just rolling need? Also, I would argue that ninja looting, a virtually unfixable flaw with the rolling system, has a far more corrosive and negative effect on the community than doing a few dungeon runs without talking about loot.

    But I always do guild runs, and we discuss who gets what when it drops, so there is no ninja looting.
    That's excellent, but unfortunately the majority of dungeon runs in MMOs these days are not guild runs. Also, you do realise that by discussing who gets what you are essentially using a form of master looter with a council system for loot distribution; you've just implemented it on top of a rolling system. You can still do this, and probably better, with the opt-in master looter system, but the big advantage is that for less organised groups, or those with only 2,3 or 4 friends / guildies, you're not going to get one person spoiling an otherwise productive and enjoyable run.

    On a final note, and to address all three of these concerns together, the ideal for the opt-in master looter system would be for master looting to be used in all groups. It is by far the most social, productive and overall fair way of distributing loot, but that is of course assuming all participants are sensible, rational, and mature. This is rarely the reality however, and as such there is a need for systems such as Personal Loot, and by extension Opt-in Master Loot, which massively reduce the effects of corrosive elements on an otherwise good community. Also, if you still want a bit of randomness in your loot distribution there is always /roll.

    Thoughts? Comments? Constructive criticism?
     
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  2. Zee

    Zee Cupcake

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    If I'm correct, there will be not loot rolling in WildStar. Loot seems to be personal (think Diablo 3 or GW2)
     
  3. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Well i think the looting system is different in WS anyways but let's give it a go anywayz :D
    Edit: Just like to the post above me :p thought i read it somewhere aswell.

    If your looting thoughts go on:

    Well isn't WoW's looting mechanic (if changed a bit) good for this aswell?

    Then you have:
    Need
    Greed
    Need for Extraction

    Make sure you can only need on your class gear, and mayby make it so people can't need on gear they already have in their bags or on them. But you can still need for Extraction on those gear.

    Cause if i read your idea, it sounds so complicated for something which can be done more easily.
    Mayby it's also that i don't want to waste time thinking about looting too much in-game, or who i give the rights to or anything. I just want a system that can be done without all that.

    But that's my opinion.

    Though i like how you thought of the problem and came up with a solution, which is ten times better then just say ''i see a problem''. So keep it going :up:
     
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  4. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Indeed. The WoW System is fine...For you know, premade groups.

    Everything else is always kinda annoying, pugs, picking randoms with you etc. Nice solution tho.
     
  5. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    The solution for me would be to get rid of cross server queueing. Hopefully the game does a good job of promoting grouping as a necessity, and then the reputation people earn on the server should bear out. If they are greedy and selfish, then they won't be invited to groups.

    Someone else mentioned it earlier, but I'd like to see some sort of reputation system where you can click a player and see their rating as determined by other players they've spent time with. I think most people would be more than willing to give the thumbs up to a good player that wasn't greedy, as opposed to some arrogant prick that tried to take all the loot. I'm not big on gear score, but if I have to pug, a reputation headsup would be useful.

    I also tend to go to the forums and help keep an updated list of all jackasses. Back in Everquest, that worked insanely well.
     
  6. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Reading other threads would be useful. You can choose to que with your own server only. End of story.
     
  7. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

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    Um...looks complicated. People, considering most people joining a group will be...HERP DERP, won't care about making such choices. Ultimately, your idea will not be used at all.
     
  8. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    Source on that? Because from what I heard from PAX it's a standard rolling system.

    Yeah but what decides 'class gear'?
    I mean weapons may be per class in WS, but armour isn't, and with the limited action sets two characters of the same class could want completely different stats, or two characters of different classes could want the same stats... not to mention rings, trickets, whatever else... and with extraction it's possible you may want a circuit off some non 'class gear'... so having the game decide is a poor solution at best and annoying limitation at worst... not to mention you still have the problem of asshats who are going to roll need on anything they possibly can regardless.

    Also, yeah sorry, I've tired to clean it up a bit so it should be easier to understand now.

    But that's the beauty, it doesn't have to be :) By default and with absolutely no understanding or choices or anything by anyone it will just act as a standard 'everyone gets their own loot' system.
     
  9. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    I don't think Opt in master loot is a good idea, if I'm leading a raid and there's a master loot option, I'm using it. If people don't trust me with that responsibility then they're more than welcome to not be in the raid group.

    I sincerely hope this is some sort of distributed loot system, maybe have personal loot for trash but then have any "trash epics" and boss loot go through master looter. Gear distribution is one of the major ways guild leaders can reward their players and inspire a bit of friendly competition. If everyone is getting a bit of gear anyway then that extra motivational factor to do better is also gone. I saw it in GW2, people didn't care what anyone really thought of them as long and the bosses dropped, they got their loot.
     
  10. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Thanks Malorak! If only I didn't have 10 massive posts in that thread on the topic!

    Just because a handful of people on the server might queue together, it doesn't really help foster a select community. It's an all or nothing concept, and it only works really well if soloing is removed altogether, and grouping is the only way to advance in the game.

    You know, like MMOs used to be.
     
  11. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    It is hard to have an intelligent conversation without knowing the current loot system mechanics for Wildstar.

    However, getting overly complex with looting mechanics isn't required. A simple need or greed system with an exchange timer (similar to that used in SWTOR presently) would handle all purposes.

    We have to remember, no manner of mechanics is going to fix the issue with people attempting to be greedy. Human communication and agreement on what to do is the most flexible. Actions players choose to take then reflect on them for any future consideration when it comes grouping with them.

    Sure with a cross server queue system you will get people who try to be overly greedy, but worst case is everyone rolls need on everything and loot is just left up to chance. Again though, with an exchange timer, you can attempt to use diplomacy and appeal to someone's better nature or even decide to remove them before attempting to continue on.
     
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  12. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ah, reminds me of wow.

    You cannot kick this player for 8 minutes.
    You cannot kick this player while in combat or soon after combat.
    You cannot kick this player during loot rolls.

    Add to it the fast pace of heroics and a tank who doesn't care you're trying to kick the ninja/idiot/jerk and you get the picture of how useful the votekick was.
     
  13. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    My issue with this is that it's an anti-social system. Instead of forcing players to police their own groups and be selective with whom they spend time with, it just tries to make PUGs more convenient and retard social interaction. Player reputation should matter in MMOs, like it used to in the original MMOs, Ultima Online, Everquest, even at late as Vanilla Warcraft. And yes, dealing with ninja looters and asshats is annoying as hell, but a good server community quickly weeds out the bad apples. I've seen it done.

    I don't think the answer to these problems is to stick your head in the sand and hope the game has some mechanic to pre-determine loot pinatas or trash drops. Half the fun is getting something useful to drop, the other half is the suspense if you'll actually be able to get it. A group should be able to work together to beat all challenges in front of them, including the "who gets what" issue.

    Take out dungeon finders. Force people to interact with others and create a friends list of players they know are honorable and considerate. If the same server has the same people looking for groups all the time, eventually everyone gets to know everyone else. Even asshats will straighten up if they know the alternative is to be blacklisted on the server.

    In the end, it always comes back to individual servers policing themselves, or it should. That's how MMOs started, and that's what they should return to.
     
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  14. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah, for organised runs you would want everyone to opt-in, and it would be to their advantage to... as in by opting in you get to share in the whole raids loot (think standard master looter rules), so if an item doesn't drop for you but it does for someone it could still be assigned to you. The UI could also support a 'you must opt in to join this raid group' type of things to makes it easier for guilds... the possibilities are there.

    The advantage of not having it forced though (i.e. like loot rules in WoW) is that like in the other examples I gave, you can do master looter for just you and a friend in a pug, or you can join a casual raid without worrying that your not going to get loot (assuming it drops for you). Or, like I also gave a quick example of, you can have a separate master looter for each guild in a joint raid, and the game basically splits the loot for you based on what drops for each member of each guild.... if one guild only has 5 members and one has the other 35 then the larger guild is going to get a lot more loot, but the smaller guild will still get some.
     
  15. Zee

    Zee Cupcake

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    For instance look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdOR-NhpdAo. They are in a group and there is no rolling for loot.

    I know it doesn't mean that there will be no rolling in raids or dungeons. But if a roll system would be in the game I think it would be global and not just for certain content types.

    A personal loot system removes all the issues with loot stealing etc.
     
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  16. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    In a perfect world yes, but as much as you, or I, would want to return to a time when being social and a decent person was a prerequisite to playing MMOs (or at least getting anywhere in them), outside of some indie MMO I just don't see it happening.

    Not to get into a personal debate with you, but I am not sticking my head in the sand, I am trying to come up a solution that isn't just 'let's just go back to what we used to do, cause well, it kinda worked', and as much as I like the suspense of a good loot roll the reality is that more and more these days it is ruined by someone who really just does not care and will click need on anything. And yes they may slowly be weeded out, but with x-server dungeon finders looking to be here to stay how about we start coming up with was to deal with it that's more than just wishful thinking?
     
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  17. Zapp Brannigan

    Zapp Brannigan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Watch as the game dies a swift death!

    Like it or not, the casuals that you seem to despise are what bring in the money now. Money is required to run the game.

    Yes, if everyone wanted to get together and have a strong community to run dungeons and weed out the <REDACTED>s, that would be fantastic! But it's not going to happen in this day and age.

    You could, however, form a guild with like-minded people. Make alliances with other guilds, bring in friends, make the server yours. You could start now. Think about it, a server where a large majority of people agree to tick the same-server only box, where you can form rivalries and friendships like in the days of yonder. Because it's still possible, you just have to do it yourself and not have the game force people into it.

    As to the OP's suggestion, I like it. If people want to share in each-others loot, they can. Also, having personal loot doesn't mean that personal loot would have to drop every time; In a raid with 10 people, only one epic item might drop, but if you're opted in to master looter, you have a greater chance of receiving it if the person who would have received it doesn't need/want it. It sounds like a very non-restrictive system.
     
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  18. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yes, but they may have just had the threshold set higher than green items or FFA loot or something, as clearly the player was the stalker, who could see the green pistol, yet it went to the solider.
    Which is what I am trying to achieve (and I believe this system does), but the main problem with only a personal loot system is that it makes it very hard to share loot... or at the least you are going to end up some major guild drama when someone doesn't want to hand over an item... which this system attempts to address by having nominated master looters that other players (that trust the master looter) can opt-in to.

    A dual personal loot (for solo and small groups) and master looter option (for raid groups) could also work reasonably well, but this systems offers the best of both and with the a lot more flexibility in between, and like I said, with a good UI (pretty much a button in the group panel and some extra management stuff for raids / guilds if they want it) it really won't be complicated at all to use.

    Anyway I really should get some sleep, and hope you all at least attempt to understand this system (it's not that complicated, just a bit different), as I really do think we can do a lot better than rolling, especially for WildStar.
     
  19. ImmortalExile

    ImmortalExile Cupcake-About-Town

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    I really would prefer a personal loot system instead. Kill the boss/mob and he explodes with goodies, and you only see yours, thus you don't have to loot roll. At the same time, all the rare loot would still be a smaller percent chance to drop anyways, so the thrill of the whole encounters end is there!
    That's just a preference. I'm fine with a traditional loot system, too.
     
  20. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    If it fits with the Wildstar looting system it looks a good idea.
    It sits transparently in the background for those not using it (so understanding it isn't necessary), using it is simple (select person you want to allocate loot) and it allows more flexibility than other systems (ie the multi guild raid example). Can't really see any downsides (it can always be used in addition to more traditional systems to give people options) - well thought out by the OP. /tips hat.
     

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