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A Better Loot System: Opt-in Master Looter

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Acidblood, Apr 6, 2013.

  1. Eliat_kuni

    Eliat_kuni Cupcake

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    Can I quote you each time someone want to kill the dungeon finder because it will destroy the community? :)
     
  2. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Personal loot in an MMO isn't interesting or fun, and in fact removes much of the surprise and interest out of the loot drops as a group.

    The only place there would be "drama" is in a puggable raid situation, and Carbine already committed to not having puggable raids (in a practical design sense.) In other words, no LFR. If you're in your guild, ostensibly the only way these raids are going to happen, this really won't be an issue.

    I'd really like to see this issue not be a distraction for Carbine, and worse, change what appears to be a very deep customization system for what I think is really a phantom problem.
     
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  3. Scrapple

    Scrapple Cupcake

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    well the gear themselves are categorized into 3 types Light, Medium, and Heavy

    "MMG: How about gear and more importantly the different types of gear specific classes can use? For example, Spellslingers are always shown using dual pistols, Warriors are always using giant swords etc. What different types of weapons and armor can we look forward to using?


    MD: In terms of armor, you will see a lot of what you might consider to be standard fare – Light, Medium, Heavy, and things like that. Obviously, whatever class you choose will determine what types of armor you can or can’t use.
    Weapons are completely and utterly tied to your class. Let’s take the Esper class – Esper’s use a psyblade and they will always use a psyblade. That’s their class’s weapon. Now, there are literally hundreds of different types of psyblades that your character might use – and all of them have different looks and wildly different utilities – but you won’t see Esper’s running around with a giant laser gun or something like that."

    didn't mention rings, trinkets and stuff like that but I'm guessing they will be stat specific.
     
  4. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    For me, much of the fun of large group raiding is also seeing what everyone else got! Or getting razzed for *not* getting that drop you've been hoping for weeks.

    Having that excitement internalized to only what happens to you specifically is a major downer! See: LFR in WoW... the content is so easy of course which is part of the problem, but then when you get nothing and you see no one else getting anything... it's like... "what did we just spend our time doing? No idea."

    Again, I think personal loot only has a potential use in the LFR-level group content and right now it doesn't look like we'll have that in WildStar.
     
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  5. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, to be fair, I'm an attorney. I can play 20 hours a week at most some weeks. I'm a casual player. I don't hate casuals, I hate the casual attitude that everything must be done for them and must be done quickly. I'm fine taking a year to hit cap and start raiding. I'm fine consuming all the lore at my own pace with my wife and kids. I'm fine being unable to solo and forced to be social and make friends to advance.

    I'm definitely not against casual players per se, it's the attitude that seems to be common with them and how developers handle them that I'm against.

    I don't need the game to be easier, so I can fit more in within a 1 hour play time window. I just don't. And everything you mentioned is exactly what I do. I'll join the roleplaying server. I'll join a great guild with lots of likeminded players, and I'll make a ton of friends on the server. I always do. And the roleplaying servers are always the most adult with the best communities.

    I'll be fine. That doesn't mean I shouldn't voice my concern that the MMO industry is moving backwards in terms of fostering a great social community. It's unfortunate because the actual gameplay is advancing in leaps and bounds.
     
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  6. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Fair enough, I can respect that stance. I haven't quite given up hope the industry goes back to its roots though. We're seeing a huge push with more sandbox gaming, EQ3 is going to be the biggest ever. All the original MMOs prior to Warcraft and EQ2 were Sandbox, not themepark. So, it's happening there. Why can't the social system return as well. They worked.

    If I *did* give up hope. And admitted defeat that all people are <REDACTED>s and there's no way gamers can police themselves, so that we need the developers to implement a method to control our out-of-control greed. Then, under that scenario, I do agree with your suggestion. I think it makes sense. I'm just hoping we're not really to that point yet. Thought, you may well be right in saying we are.
     
  7. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    GW2 has it right. Open a chest, get your loot. You have no clue what everyone got and if they don't want to they don't have to tell you. Most times people are all too willing to give up what they got if it benefits you, I know I always do.
     
  8. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think this is a brilliant post. I agree 99% with your thoughts and feelings. The only part I don't like is the end, but that's only because I'd prefer never to have personal loot, as well as never have raid finders. I do love that WildStar is bringing back raiding as a hardcore only option. I'm casual, I may never get to raid, but it will be fun to see the amazing armor and weapons people bring back. I can't wait to inspect them!
     
  9. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm not entirely sure GW2 did anything right, maybe hidden jumping puzzles and the combat. I was in an incredible guild, Arcanix, with one of the most charismatic and invested guild leaders on the planet. We did the Lion King video in beta, he made a brilliant machima, and the guild set up event after event to keep us entertained. Despite being casual, I hit cap in under a month. The Wpvp was broken. Orr was broken. There was no set role in a group because of no tanking or healing. There was no raiding and after doing the two dragons a thousand times each, that became boring. The dungeons were fun but were a complete zerg because of no class roles. It encouraged rezzing and helping players on events, but EQ did the same thing by having Support oriented classes. Anyway, even a superb guild couldn't keep me in that game because at it's core, it was a solo game. Even the loot system privatized loot. Everything was about your character and little else. Yes, you had to group up to accomplish some things, but it was always as a solo player participant in a mass zerg. Rift had already done this. I think they did it better.

    Anyway, I want to know what everyone got. I don't have to get the loot to enjoy seeing it drop. I enjoy seeing the stats and the look, etc... Why take that away. It's a nice social perk that I can be happy for someone else to get something I helped them to kill.
     
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  10. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Different ideas, which is fine.

    Personally, I don't care much about what other people got. I also don't prefer to spend my time in a dungeon with a bunch of bumbling kids for nothing. Sorry GW2 wasn't your cup of tea, not every game can be everything (or anything) to everyone, but they did a LOT right and continue to this day. We won't see eye to eye on that so I won't waste my time 'making my case'.

    You obviously never played Fractals either, there was no zerg. Their first dungeons I would agree to your point completely, that changed and improved. The zerg wasn't due to "no trinity", it was due to the players at the time not understanding how to manage dodge, kiting, or aggro. Again your experience seems limited to the first couple months so it's understandable that you view it this way.

    WPvP...again was fine, minus a couple exploits.

    I would wholeheartedly disagree with anyone saying Rift did anything right, that was the single-most uninspired game I've played to date. I could make a world out of cereal boxes that felt more interactive.
     
  11. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    I feel the exact same way. I may indeed be on the outside looking in for some of the hardcore raids, but the awesomeness of seeing other players around town with the loot, and hearing the stories when X guild defeated Y boss for the first time... epic stuff, and a classic example of the journey being as enticing as the destination!
     
  12. TehTic

    TehTic Cupcake

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    I believe that we all need to take a step back. As that passions rise and lead into other such things as character attack and on. Though this could be quelled by carbine it seems that the information just is not ready for release. So in turn I believe we need to simmer down and wait.:cautious:
     
  13. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    If GW2 did anything right, I'd be hard-pressed to say it was loot, or anything to do with group content at all.

    I think it's a very important social construct in a multi-player game that you see what other people are doing, getting and progressing. Because even if you didn't get an upgrade you still get a kick out of the fact that someone on your team did - and that's the most important part of group content: group progression, not individual progression.

    I still don't see how this modding system would cause trouble anyway.
     
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  14. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    LOL
    I think you're the only one getting worked up. I, guaranteed, would never head in that direction. It's a discussion/debate/whatever and on the internet with people I don't know, I couldn't possibly be invested enough to get upset.
     
  15. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I respect that, for you.

    The only time I care if someone else gets an upgrade is if it's a close friend or a guildie. Most groups probably won't have either of those things and even if they did I still would prefer personal loot so that we all got "something" and if we couldn't use it we could trade it for something we could.

    I have the same nostalgic viewpoints of the older raids, outdoor dungeons and all that, however it constantly amazes me how many of my peers (20 year gaming veterans) constantly want things to be "like they were", without realizing that it isn't possible. Gaming has advanced, and will continue to advance. It's like everyone that hates every Windows upgrade because it's different...eventually they'll have to use it because their version won't be supported, might as well embrace it early.
     
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  16. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Ah, that's the difference! I think most groups *should* have those things (friends and guldies). And in WildStar, at least from the sound of raiding, that will be a requirement.

    If players expect to do group content as a solo player who was brought together with strangers by an algorithm... well, that's not the right direction for group content in an MMO. Similar problem with GW2 in how they handle loot and large group content... you don't need a team, or a strategy... you just zerg it, and are generally let down by whatever the outcome is, especially loot wise, because there was no team effort. Just a gathering of people in the same place at the same time playing along side each other, not 'with' each other.

    And that's something else. Personal loot also doens't mean you definitely get something. Only *if* you get something, it's assigned to you privately.

    I think some of this very discussion is at the root of the downfall of group content in MMOs to be quite honest. Group content should really be designed to be consumed by well-practiced teams only, not any assembly of warm bodies who are just lining up for the shiny at the end.
     
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  17. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh how I would love that, unfortunately the mantra of MMOs lately has been accessibility. Most people wouldn't cut it in challenging content, to be honest most players now wouldn't cut it in most REGULAR EQ farm groups. Sadly that's just the direction of games in general (and a complete tangent I could go on for days on) and it bleeds over into EVERYTHING, even every day life.

    If there's a way to combat it, without law-breaking actions, then I'm not sure what it is. We can hope for more out of each title, in the end I just hope for enough to get me to the "next big thing" because I haven't even been able to find that lately.
     
  18. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Fair enough, I can respect your opinion on this.

    You are correct on Fractals, I lasted in GW2 roughly two months. And the last month was just because my guild did everything they possibly could to keep people interested. It's sad too, I wanted to play that game for years. It just had nothing to keep me invested. I understand games get better over time, but when that initial wave of disappointment crashes down, you're just done with the game forever.

    Wpvp had massive bugs with the trebs being unreachable and with the graphics glitch that fifty people could see and kill you, but you wouldn't see them. It was fun besides that.

    I'm with you on Rift. I thought the collection system was phenominal. And I enjoyed some of the social battles, but the lack of defined class roles killed that game for me. Hated how everyone could be everything. Rift held me for two months too. As did SWTOR.

    It's sad. EQ1 I played for 6 years. EQ2 on and off for 3 or 4 years. WoW on and off for 5 years. I tried just about every other major MMO (FFXI, AoC, Vanguard, Rift, SWTOR, GW2) along the way, and I can't get past two months. Aside from FFXI and Vanguard, I usually hit cap in Month 1, and then experience the broken end game for month 2. And then I quit because the game sucks, and I see fundamental design flaws that I don't feel can be improved to make my experience better.

    I hope to God WildStar isn't another two monther. At least EQ3 is coming out at the end of the year, or thereabouts. So, there's a backup plan. I'm just not thrilled with what I've heard out of that camp so far.
     
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  19. Batzorig

    Batzorig Cupcake-About-Town

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    Here are my thoughts on this idea.

    Opt-in Master Loot: Kinda cool sounding, but here's the one problem I see. Everyone opts-in. It's a 40 person raid. You now spend the next 6 weeks figuring out who gets which item, because the boss just dropped 40 of them. That's hyperbole, but still, I honestly can't see downing more than 1 boss a night if you have to figure out how to hand out 40 items to 40 people. This sounds like it will increase loot drama even more than the CBC system itself.

    Personal Loot: I think this may be the way to go with Wildstar, but certainly not the only way. With the explanation that it will be very hard to get a perfect BiS item, it makes sense to me that people will need to do a lot of fiddling with gear to try and get close. The easiest way to make sure everyone gets enough stuff to do the fiddling is to give out more loot, since most of it will be unoptimized. It would also help end Loot Drama, but it does diminish the social experience of getting loot and the camaraderie therein.

    I will be interested to see what course Carbine takes with this.
     
  20. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    I disagree with the direction you went, but you do bring up a good point about having an over-abundance of loot drops per raid boss, or raid.

    Again, I like how EQ, EQ2, and vanilla WoW did it where you're basically only able to get to the raid boss once per week at most, and the boss drops 3-4 items. I like DKP administered through a guild. For me, that's how raiding should be done. The way SWTOR did it with pre-determined loot in a chest was bleh. At least you could see what others got though. And I got the same item over and over, while others wanted it. Nothing could be done, so in that regard, I do like the opt-in idea from the OP.

    But I don't agree with the current popular mindset that you should get something every time you raid or every time you run a dungeon. I thought Warcraft's Molten Core was flawless. Each boss dropped a select loot table, at least one of which was desireable for every class. It took a long time to get all the gear you wanted, but raiding was fun and well done in WoW, so it was fine. A handful of items per boss. Each boss dropping a different loot table. Each raid once a week at most. Extends the end game, and its fun to see your guildies get stronger. I also enjoyed the strategy of how to use your DKP.
     

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