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A Better Loot System: Opt-in Master Looter

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Acidblood, Apr 6, 2013.

  1. Batzorig

    Batzorig Cupcake-About-Town

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    Honetsly, after reading this, and rereading my own post, I'm starting to agree. Personal loot solves a lot of problems, but it's a significant drop in 'coolness factor' I guess. However with the random microchip idea they have presented, I worry the odds will be high that loot will drop and it won't be of huge interest to anybody, but perhaps that's naive on my part.
     
  2. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm on both sides of the fence. I'm all for limited drops, DKP, and lots of time and effort required; for raids.

    For dungeons, I'm on the fence and this is probably due to dealing with so many randoms that just "need" on anything that they can.

    I guess we'll see what they do. In the end if the game is fun I don't really care, I'll adapt to whatever systems they use and embrace them.
     
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  3. Forge Darksteel

    Forge Darksteel Cupcake

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    My personal "ideal" loot system would be this:
    1. Personal loot in raiding: every person gets an item off each boss. This removes drama and give you something from each raid. Taking a queue from the recent dev post about randomized elements to gear, you still may not get the ideal item you wanted off the boss anyways, giving you a reason to come back next week.
    2. Rare loot: every raid boss has a pool of rare loot which may drop (i.e. there are 10 items which are in the rare pool, 1 will drop each time, 10% chance of that item), which is put up for roll and the highest roll wins. It can be a pet, mount, housing item, or gear.
    3. Crafting mats: just like every other MMO, rare crafting mats drop off the boss and crafters who have that profession leveled are given opportunity to roll on it. It cannot be BoP, as that defeats the essence of the crafting economy, to me.
    4. Trade window option: this takes the opt-in master loot option into consideration. If something drops for me off the boss and I don't want it, I can offer it for trade to another player within a window (say, 10 minutes). This allows for players who don't need an item to ensure it doesn't go to waste, or a player who is looking to make a little gold on the side to sell an item to the highest bidder (I used to do this in WoW all the time). It's a win-win feature.
    These are my thoughts as a long-time raider.
     
  4. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Agreed, if this doesn't mean it's a rare/epic/etc. This could work very well if there was only ONE or TWO unique rares/epics whatever then the rest are just random rares and uncommon.

    See above

    Meh, I've given up on the prospect of player-driven economy, it doesn't work since you're always better off with drops. We'll see though.

    So....like the normal system used in most MMOs today. Hopefully these basic systems are in place as MMOs shouldn't be limiting basic things.
     
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  5. Forge Darksteel

    Forge Darksteel Cupcake

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    I hear ya on the crafting economy part. It's so frustrating to have crafting be simply a side thing and not woven into the fabric of the endgame (or Elder game, in this case).
     
  6. Senescheal

    Senescheal New Cupcake

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    In my honest oppionion, personal looting should never include anything beyond common gear/materials. It floods a game with tons of "rare" items which in turn breaks the ecconomy whereby goldsinks have to be implemented taking the eyes of the big guys off what I would prefer getting, bigger and better game content.

    It would appear that WS giving everyone tons of opportunity to put toghther a core group to do regular raids with so there should be no need to change a roll system, that has worked in the past on other MMOs that have proven popular over extended periods of time.

    The question therefore is how many loot systems would it take to keep us happy? One for leveling, one for instaces/dungeons and then the tried and tested Roll for Raid?

    The easy way out would seem personalised loot, but other than ecconomics there are a few reasons to dislike it. If I may be so bold as to suggest a system whereby rolling is only allowed if the item is usable by your class or craft unless passed by all? In this scenario there is less hassle with loot sorting and rolling would only be required withing a gear or craft group.

    If drops are going to be frequent and tons of common gear is going to drop, it can be included in an "autoroll pool".

    Just my 2c
     
  7. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ditto.
     
  8. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Not just at elder game but even throughout leveling up crafting should yield better results than equal level drops.
     
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  9. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I would prefer the traditional NvG with an added need for chips option in all content. However i understand that a lot of people don't want to deal with loot drama so as long as in a raid i can set it to master loot ill be happy.
     
  10. Forge Darksteel

    Forge Darksteel Cupcake

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    Master Looter is always an option; if I trust the raid leader to run the raid, then I have to trust they will be fair with loot. I'll be sticking with guild-only raids either way! ;)
     
  11. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Auto loot distribution with threshold limits on quality is as automated as I would like to see it. Where you can still see notification on who got what. It is cool to know what's going on and also allows for you to engage with others, should you be looking for something you need, without always asking, "What did you get."

    Total personal loot; a loot is randomized to the player and only they can see their loot, I am against.

    As it stands, we have a button to find random people, a button to teleport to a location and now it is being advocated the loot be automated. With each of these convenience and ease methods, the game takes steps to be rather shallow and unappealing for getting involved with for long term play.

    I really don't want another silent game where no one even speaks, as there is no need; other players are just bodies there to help complete content and have no impact on one another.

    Yes, there may be some drama, but that is all part of interacting with other people. You can't eliminate any chance of a negative situation without removing the positive human aspect of the equation and thus make the game cold and sterile.
     
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  12. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    A PUG is a PUG. Whether they were brought together by an algorithm or a text message is irrelevant. Or are you saying that people should not be able to pug missions, and open world events? Or when you say ‘group content’, are you just talking about raids? And if you are just talking about raids, then what does an algorithm have to do with that, being they are ran by Guilds, and Guild Alliances.

    Personnel Loot removes the politics from loot drops within a group. This is personal opinion, but might as well be fact. Now if you have a need to know what everybody received on their drops that is your personal quirk. I have no need to know, and I feel Personnel Loot makes life within a group a lot easier.

    As for the politics of dealing with cross server populations within a group; having a Global Handle such as what COHV had would go a long ways in handling that problem.
     
  13. Zapp Brannigan

    Zapp Brannigan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sure, but I warn you, boosting my ego is never a good thing.

    And @Mat'hir Uth Gan, thanks for the calm reply. I didn't word my post in the nicest of ways and you would have been right to have a go at me.

    In this particular case, I think the OP's suggestion is something that caters to both sides of the equation. Casuals who are pugging a raid don't opt in and don't have to worry about ninja looters, though if someone gets a piece they don't need, or a piece for a different class, those who didn't opt-in are SoL. On the other hand, the raiding guilds would obviously have everyone opt in. It could even allow for, say, a built in DKP system. Having opt-in master looter would really expand options in a good way, imo.
     
  14. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    But it sounds, from what you wrote, that you are interested in doing group content primarily to character as opposed primarily doing it to better your team. IMO, that's a problem. If you're not loyal to your team, how can there ever be great team content since everyone is playing for themselves?

    My feeling is that group content should mean "well practiced team" not "warm bodies with 30 minutes to spare". This is absolute;y true for raiding, but I'd like to see hold true for dungeons as well.

    Open world content is a different animal. In GW2 as an example, it's just zergy and designed for the lowest common denominator player who might just happen to be walking by. Low value for group minded players, and no group or communication required to beat it. Blizzard did a good job with world bosses in Vanilla, however. There was rarity... it was always a race to get to the boss first and get the tag. Guild competition especially on PvP servers was intense. And the bosses had worthwhile sought-after rewards.

    I don't think there would be any loot drama if group content was something players did with guildies and friends, instead of random strangers who came together at the last minute.

    And to be quite honest, I feel loot drama in general is very 2005. It's not a real thing anymore, everyone seems to be overstating it. Players are rewarded so much and so often, they don't feel like they are getting cheated out of something because the next purple pixel teet is dripping just around the corner, and they just have to lap it up.
     
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  15. Lyas Tyrell

    Lyas Tyrell Cupcake-About-Town

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    Source on this?
     
  16. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    OP has been edited and update to hopefully explain it better. Also I've included a few diagrams to give people a more visual idea of how some common scenarios might work with the opt-in master looter system.

    If you did not understand the system before, please re-read the OP.

    And below are some replies to some of the issues raised in this thread...
    If all you want it to be is a Personal loot system, that's all this system will ever be too you.
    Obviously you never did PUG groups in WoW (or other MMOs), as there is plenty of loot drama in them too. Also the reason I suggest this system is for the very reason that I don't want to see circuit board customisation nerfed.
    I know that, but what stops say a DPS warrior rolling on tank gear just for the circuit board even though there is a tank warrior that could use the whole item?

    There are only two ways I know to distribute something 'fairly'*:
    1. Completely random. i.e. Personal loot.
    2. An accepted decision between consenting parites. i.e. Master Looter.

    If there is a third way please tell me, because in all my years of MMO gaming I am yet to see it.
    * I say 'fairly' as the perception of fairness is often very different to the reality.
    Good point, I do enjoying seeing items even if I don't end up getting them... but that is more of a presentation issue than a mechanics one.

    For example there is no reason you couldn't have an option for any magic/rare/epic items you pick up (or that are picked up for you by the master looter) shown in 'loot' chat, or even a special boss loot window. If you really wanted to you could even have everything drop in the world but you can only pick (vacuum) what is assigned to you... like I said, that's all just presentation.
    Basically the issue is that by making chips extractable you open a whole load of possibilities when it comes to what items people will want. For example, say I'm a Warrior, but a pistol drops that has a sweet chip in it, I can't use pistols, but I can use the chip, so now I want that item... but so does the Spellslinger in the group. Being as he can us pistols he thinks he should have first dibs, but seeing as how this is his first time through the dungeon and I've been running it all week just for this chip I think I should get a shot at it as well. Now you might agree with the Spellslinger, or you might not.. I might just roll need anyway... point is; loot drama.
    I see your point but Personal loot, and Opt-in Master Loot, does not necessarily mean more items per boss; not everyone has to get something, just like not everyone has to get something now through rolling. I do admit that there is the possibility of getting multiples of the same item (as loot would still be dropped per player), but with a decent RNG anything too extreme should be incredibly rare.

    As for loot distribution in the scenario you mentioned, the simple answer is 'however they do it now'. DKP, EPGP, Council, etc. however guilds want to distribute their loot they can, and if they can't be bothered to organise something like that, they can just stick to personal loot.

    Nice ideas, but far to schizophrenic. Loot systems, like any system should be simple, and idealy powerful and flexiable as well.
    Thanks for the input. As I've said above, Personal loot, and by extension Opt-in Master Loot, does not necessarily mean that the number of drops has to increase; it's just poor game design (IMO) that it generally does.

    With regards to only being able to roll on what you can wear, it's an OK idea, but really only limits freedom without even coming close to fixing the problem; people who just need on anything they possibly can.

    As others have pointed out, ideally ninja looting is policed by the community, but with cross-server dungeon finders this becomes a much harder nut to crack. For me at least, the slight loss of all loot being communal (opting in means you can still share with friends) is a small price to pay to removal of all the negative actions (ninja looting) and repercussions (kicking, infighting, acquisitions, ignoring, etc.) that comes from having a rolling system as the 'best' option.
    For someone who is so anti 'modern MMO design' I find it strange that you use modern design as a excuse for why the current system of rolling on loot is 'fine'... but OK.
     
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  17. TehTic

    TehTic Cupcake

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    Thank you for a well delivered solution. I definitely feel this type of solution is workable. But I believe we need to see what type of loot mechanics are already implemented.
     
  18. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    Agreed, but it doesn't hurt to get a bit of feedback and refine the idea in the mean time :)
     
  19. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Sure I have, but that was back in the day before the era of anonymity and entitlement we are in. And during that time is when I built up long term friendships and a guild to run with!

    And I think that gets to the root of my hope for this game and the genre in general - to get systems and content in place that foster a team mentality first, and bring accountability into the mix. Otherwise, these games will just stagnate if we just keep bringing random people together in a group to do something intended for a team.

    Hmm, I don't think we know enough about the system to say that players would even be able to determine what is "extractable" before it's looted. And with each class only having one weapon, it would be easy peasy for Carbine to make it a hidden "Class Need" before regular "Need" in the roll mechanic. For example similar to how WoW does profession recipes.

    I'm not sure what that means.

    Anyway, I respect your opinion and the time you take to synthesize your points. It just so happens I feel that this very thing is contributing to pushing the genre at the precipice of doom :) I love the debate and discussion though, because it's honestly only through this process that we have a chance of learning from each other and opening up to a new point of view!
     
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  20. Vembumees

    Vembumees Cupcake-About-Town

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    As lethality mentioned, a diablo 3'like loot system is horrible for raiding, since RAID loot is to improve your team not to selfishly improve yourself (replying to those that asked for the d3 loot).
     

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