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A Better Loot System: Opt-in Master Looter

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Acidblood, Apr 6, 2013.

  1. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    While I love the idea of this game, just based on gaming for the past 25 years and watching the communities evolve I'm not sure it can be done at this point.

    I could, and hope I am, be wrong. I just don't ever agree with forcing people to do things because then you're met with resentment, or they just walk away because there are other options.
     
  2. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ah yes, good times indeed. I am also hoping for something of a return to this in WildStar, but with cross-server LFD and no idea how difficult dungeons and general group content is going to be I'm a bit worried.

    ... Ok then, instead of me being a warrior, I'm also a Spellslinger, but the pistol isn't an upgrade for me (the chip still is) but it is an upgrade for the other Spellslinger... what's to stop me rolling need now? Also, even if my actions are justified the other Spellslinger does not have to seen it that way, and could still call me a ninja.

    Basically I can keep coming up with scenarios all day, and there is no way for a 'limited exclusion' system to possibly even come close to being fair about them all... rolling is just fundamentally flawed. Also read below before you reply, I've prepared a few responses to general concerns to save us a bit of time with the back and forth :)

    Which is exactly why I've included a master looter mechanic as part of the system.

    Please, read the OP before posting.

    Now, to address some common concerns (this will also be added to the OP):
    It's too complicated.
    If you don't want to dig into the depths of the system that's perfectly fine, it will just act like a Personal Loot system for you.

    Personal Loot = Everyone has to get something.
    This is a fundamental misconception. Yes, other games generally do it that way (IMO a flaw), but it does not have to be done that way, especially since this system supports loot sharing via a master looter. Yes loot will be dropped by a different formula compared to rolled on loot, but that does not mean any more needs to be given out on average.

    It reduces social interaction by removing the need to talk about loot.
    If everyone is just in Personal Loot mode then yes, but how is that really any different than everyone just rolling need? Also, I would argue that ninja looting, a virtually unfixable flaw with the rolling system, has a far more corrosive and negative effect on the community than doing a few dungeon runs without talking about loot.

    But I always do guild runs, and we discuss who gets what when it drops, so there is no ninja looting.
    That's excellent, but unfortunately the majority of dungeon runs in MMOs these days are not guild runs. Also, you do realise that by discussing who gets what you are essentially using a form of master looter with a council system for loot distribution; you've just implemented it on top of a rolling system. You can still do this, and probably better, with the opt-in master looter system, but the big advantage is that for less organised groups, or those with only 2,3 or 4 friends / guildies, you're not going to get one person spoiling an otherwise productive and enjoyable run.

    On a final note, and to address all three of these concerns together, the ideal for the opt-in master looter system would be for master looting to be used in all groups. It is by far the most social, productive and overall fair way of distributing loot, but that is of course assuming all participants are sensible, rational, and mature. This is rarely the reality however, and as such there is a need for systems such as Personal Loot, and by extension Opt-in Master Loot, which massively reduce the effects of corrosive elements on an otherwise good community. Also, if you still want a bit of randomness in your loot distribution there is always /roll.
     
  3. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    It's fair game for both of you, since something about that item is an upgrade for you. You both roll on it, winner wins. You don't have to be worried about being called a ninja unless you are one. And he's going back to his home server anyway, right? Back to that problem about anonymity, respect and entitlement... ;)

    But, based on what we know right now, how will we even know that the good part of that pistol is extractable? There's really zero case to be made here until we have the answer to that.

    Rolling works great when you're among friends. Which, conveniently, is also the best way to do group content. :)

    You've made claims like "majority of dungeon runs are not guild runs" - but that isn't a fact. And besides, what better way to encourage that behavior in players than to make the content markedly more fun and successful when done by a team as opposed to a group. Train the players, and they will learn!
     
  4. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    So...you're all for community but only if they're part of your tight-knit group?

    Just a lot of inconsistencies between posts, most times it seems that you're saying whatever you need to to prove the point you're aiming for in your current post.

    Speaking of overarching community, then saying that you can train people to only want to do group runs is counter-productive.

    As an aside, I personally guarantee that there won't be much challenging solo/dungeon encounters. We've discussed the issues on raids and I maintain that the problem here is more the logistics of pulling the group together and coordinating inept players to do their job, so we'll exclude those, but single-group dungeons, I'm betting, won't be a challenge for decent players.
     
  5. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    I think my messaging has been pretty clear and consistent, actually.

    I'm all for building community through accountability and responsibility. One way to do that? Difficult group content where players won't have success unless they play as a team. Then, meet and practice with players that you want to play with again. When it comes time to run group content, that short list should be your first call... then, if you have to, you fill a slot with a pug player.

    Instead, these games train players to just erase their memory and grab a new set of 4 strangers the next time they head into a dungeon. That's the stuff we have to fix, and once we do, this whole thread about alternative contrived looting systems doesn't even need to exist.
     
  6. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Nothing's really broken at this point. The people that you label as being entitled could turn around and do the same to you, feeling that you're more "entitled" to educate them on gaming the way you feel it should be. Far too much 'holier-than-thou' in the community as a whole. It's 'your way' or it's the wrong way.

    Personally....in the end I really don't care what system there is, I'll adapt and succeed, I just hope that the community shows real follow-through, rather than more preaching and assimilating.
     
  7. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Getting back to the topic at hand, it doesn't make sense to impose a contrived solution or dumb-down a game system to accommodate for these fringe cases. I'd much rather prefer that players and developers spend time and resources on using and improving tools to help the social structure, and bring players together in a much more permanent way, allowing them to focus on teamwork and fun.
     
  8. Rawhide

    Rawhide Cupcake

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    I see the want from people in games for Designated Looters, but, in my 12 years of MMO gameplay / raiding, 9 times out of 10 I see DL's and DKP doing nothing more than keeping the L33T Ub3R L33T and the people with fuller lives begging for scraps.

    If a loot bag hands out loot to people every time, then that works evenly. But when UB3R L33T raider tank doesn't get an upgrade and he sees Mr.Casual get an upgrade because they are far easier to come by for him, it's crying time. In L33T raider, DKP concept, only the fullest of the full time deserve rewards.
     
  9. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Depends on the situation. If i join a guild that raids 4 days a week and i make sure to show up every day then damn right i don't want someone who only makes 1 or 2 raids a week to have the same loot rights i do. That's the best part about dkp though, if you raid half as much as someone else you should get about half the loot. If you still outbid me getting less dkp a week thats fine. Now if we are doing some pug with out of guild people i always push for need v greed.

    Im not going to go on a tirade here but i really hate this idea that people who raid a lot cant have lives...
     
    Rawhide likes this.
  10. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    Free for all loot works when you're among friends... but I take your point, and while I will try to do as many runs with friends / guildies as I can, it's not those runs I'm worried about.

    While I don't have any figures to back up my claim, you don't have any figures to dispute them either, and when you consider the speed at which LFD groups are formed, and that the majority of players are not the social guild run types (otherwise why would we even be having this conversation) it is not hard to imagine that what I said is true.

    I don't disagree with you though, and in fact it occurred to me that an unintended consequence of this system may actually be to encourage players to form social groups and bonds. Think about it, if you have a personal loot system with no increase in the average amount of loot dropped compared to a roll system, then personal loot isn't going to give you what you want most of the time. This is why most games with personal loot go crazy with the drops, but WildStar shouldn't, because, with this system there is an option (namely master looter) which allows players to distribute drops in a manner similar to if not better than rolling. The catch is, well catch if your an asocial player at least, is that in order to take advantage of the master looter part of the system you need to be with people you can trust, and you can only start to trust people once you start to get to know them.

    So in summary, if they stick to their dungeon finder ways under a system like this (opt-in master looter with no increase in loot drops beyond a rolling system) asocial players will take a lot longer to gear up than those that talk, co-operate, form bonds and work together. And that is what I would call excellent game design; even if I do say so myself :) ... Edit: Well maybe except for the whining your going to get on the forums to begin with, but I'm an optimistic armchair social engineer, they'll come around.
     
  11. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    There's a lot of stuff we don't know about the content in the game, but here's a situation we do know will exist via convention interviews and so forth: public, scaling combat scenarios. Someone with the Soldier path starts a "hold out" type mission where he has to defend a device or an area through 3 or 4 waves of enemies, and this encounter will scale depending upon how many people in the area, whether they're grouped with the Soldier or not, show up to kill mobs. There could 5 people or there could be 20 people. Whichever kind of loot distribution system is used needs to fit this scenario and, say, a 20-man raid boss kill; and in the case of the public hold out mission I'd say it's expected that everyone will be rewarded somehow when the giant, raid monster looking thing goes down.
     
  12. Draegan

    Draegan Cupcake

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    As long as loot doesn't boil down to me collecting enough tokens to get gear, I'll be happy with any system.
     
  13. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    A number of people have brought up the idea, with the intention of preventing ninja looting under a rolling system, of not allowing you to need on an item that isn't for your class. I have never liked this idea for 2 reason:
    1. It is an artificial barrier with a close link between effectiveness and level of restriction.
    2. As I've already pointed out, ultimately it does little to prevent the problem of ninja looting.
    As an alternative to 'selective needing', I would like to propose the idea of skewing the odds for Bind on Pickup items. The goal being that instead of reducing what you can roll on, it would increase the chances of giving you your classes item in the first place. This has three benefits over selective needing:
    1. It doesn't artificially prevent, or depending on the loot system, reduce the odds, of someone getting items not designed for their class. Why you would want items that aren't designed for your class is up to you, stats would probably be the biggest reason, but either way the less artificial barriers in a game the better.
    2. Under any loot system (rolling, personal, opt-in master, etc.) it helps make the drops more relevant to the group. I'm sure we've all done runs where nothing but pally plate has dropped and not a paladin in sight. Skewing the odds wouldn't out right prevent this scenario, but it would make it far less likely.
    3. It would reduce, or under personal loot / opt-in master loot, remove, the issue of 'we have too many of X class' or 'too many Y armour wearers'. This isn't often a problem for regular groups, but I have seen plenty of people refuse to group with someone else of their own class / armour type due to not wanting to share drops.
    As a quick example of what I mean by odds skewing: Imagine a boss that drops a Bind on Pickup weapon for each class, under a personal loot / opt-in master loot system (where all drop chances are independent) each item would have for example a 15% chance to drop, but with skewed odds your classes weapon would have a 30% chance to drop for you.

    It would be a little more complicated under a rolling system (where drop chances are dependent) due to having to take into account overall group makeup and reducing the odds of items for unrepresented classes, but I think it would still work reasonably well. For example the same boss as above with a group of 3 Warriors, an Esper and and a Spellslinger. The boss would drop say 3 items total with no duplicates, so for the first item the odds would be 4/11 for the warrior weapon, 2/11 for the Esper and Spellslinger weapons, and 1/11 for the other 3 classes weapons. Say the warrior item dropped, the odds would then be 2/7 for the Esper and Spellslinger weapons and 1/7 for the other 3 classes weapons. And so on.

    As an additional benefit to personal loot / opt-in master loot, it would also dramatically reduce the need to increase the average number of drops beyond that of a rolling system. By making drops more relevant to your class you could still gear up in a reasonable amount of time, and you wouldn't have to wade through bag fulls of other classes items to get there (though you would still get a few items for other classes).

    Note: The skewed odds would only apply to Bind on Pickup items so as to not increase the ability of certain classes to farm various Bind on Equip items; if you want those items you can always trade with other players for them.

    TLDR: Please read the entire post to save everyone the time and effort of repeating themselves. Also, I know this is all speculation and may not be needed, but until I know otherwise (late beta, finished product) it doesn't hurt to share and refine ideas.

    So, how do you feel about skewing the odds for Bind on Pickup items, both in general and as a way to allow personal loot to be more viable without the need to increase the average number of items dropped?


    Yeah, I don't mind tokens as a bit of a backup / bonus, but as the primary way to get gear it pretty much blows.
     
  14. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    I think it is a good idea. Personal loot would be the most used, but for organized raids, or groups, it gives an additional option to help gear up individual people quicker.

    Sounds good to me, I do not see anything wrong with it.
     
  15. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    EQ2 implemented a system like this towards the end of some expansions in order to help latecomers gear up. While it sounds like a good idea in theory, all it really does is make gearing up faster. Which is all well and good but if drop rates are as high as they are in other mmos like rift (purple loot every other boss) it would be a bit too much.

    Agreed. If token items are BIS everyone just ends up with the same gear set in the end. Tokens should only be a way to fill slots you have had terrible luck on.
     
  16. Draegan

    Draegan Cupcake

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    It's pretty easy to set up a decent looting system:
    Everyone gets something from the boss.

    With gear having random chip elements, random stats and all that other stuff we've seen, you can afford to give people a piece of gear everytime they kill a boss with inflating the marketplace. Players will be extracting microchips, or saving up for alternate sets, or tossing out old gear when they get a piece with a better stat roll on it.

    It's really quite simple imo.
     
  17. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    I didn't think of that, thanks for pointing it out.

    I still think it would work well for a personal loot system (with each items chance to drop being independent, and the skew factored into the base drop chance), but yeah, in a rolling system where a boss will drop X of Y items there isn't really much difference between fair odds and skewed odds for the same rate of gear gain; skewed odds would just have to have a lower overall drop rate, which doesn't really achieve much.

    Simple in concept yes, maybe not so much in execution. Also, I don't believe that everyone should necessary have to get something from a boss; I think it's good idea that there is chance that everyone can get something, but it should not be a rule.
     
  18. Draegan

    Draegan Cupcake

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    What do you mean no so much in execution? I don't see how it's hard to execute?

    Random numbers used here - You kill a minor raid boss:
    You have a 10% chance to get two items.
    You have an 80% chance to get a rare item.
    You have a 20% chance to get an epic item.
    Then toss in the ever more rare chance on getting random set items.

    Inside those percentages, you get random mods/stats on the item. So every time you kill this raid boss you have a 20% chance to get that epic item roll. Then inside that 20% chance you have even a smaller chance (10%? 5%? 1%?) to get your perfect roll of stats. Conversely, you would have a better chance to get that perfect roll on that rare item. That perfect rare item (or close to perfect) can often be better than "normal" or sub-par epics.

    Think Diablo. Loot rains from the sky, but good loot is rare. Why not take that idea into MMORPGs? Getting rewards is a driver to play these games. When I've gone through my hardcore raiding phases, it's boring as all hell to raid all night and not get anything. Or it's boring as hell to hash it out with a loot council or DKP to figure out who gets what. Screw that.

    This way, everyone gets a chance at everything. You are actually excited to raid because you are looking forward to getting stuff. Everyone loves the chance of getting that random item that's awesome. Why should you have a chance of not getting anything? That's not fun. We play games for fun.

    This also has a larger side effect: it stimulates the economy and creates another avenue for players to get crafting materials.
     
  19. Loken

    Loken New Cupcake

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    Either the OP has been a victim of some bad rolls or ninja looters, or he is really into his looting to spend all that time trying to devise a new way to loot so you don't get burned. Kudos to all the work you put into that but in reality looting is like life you have good days and bad days, meet good people or asshats you can't control human behavior nor would I ever want as it makes us what we are human and 100% fallible. If I am in a guild I put my faith in my raid leader as master looter, in 5 mans or whatever if I win something awesome and it made that gaming session that much better if some asshat ninja loots oh well it was only pixel loot anyhow not like someone stole my kids or something. All in all I play to meet people make new friends etc not worry if someone steals my circuit board like not much else you can do if someone steals your parking spot.

    There is an awful lot of speculation on a system that we don't even know about yet, people are getting all butt hurt over winning in game pixels seriously take a step back and take a walk outside or something.
     
  20. MrBushido

    MrBushido Cupcake

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    The fact that it takes such a long post and diagrams to explain that this example is over-engineered. If wildstar does have a loot rolling mechanic my only suggestion for improving it would be that the group gets to vote on what loot method they want.
     

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