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A Bold Proposition: A Competitive PvX Guild (Not A Recruitment Thread)

Discussion in 'Guilds, Circles and Warparties General' started by Xlugon Pyro, May 25, 2013.

  1. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    If this is in the wrong place, I apologize. I'm not sure where best to put this and this looks to be the best place thus far, so here it is. This is not a guild recruitment thread so much as a discussion regarding the guild concept I have laid bellow.

    To start things off, my MMO experiences go as far back as Everquest's pre-expansion era. However, I have only tasted high-end, competitive PvE and PvP during my later tenure in WoW, particularly throughout the later half of WotLK and throughout Cata. I've gotten a few server firsts on my low-end server (in terms of raiding) and my highest arena rating was over 1550 in 2v2 as an enhancement shaman. This is by no means an impressive resume, but I know the stuff that it takes to play at a high level. If anything, my achievements were likely the result of the server that I was on, but I stuck with that server despite the horrible end-game climate. You're probably wondering why I'm telling you all this, why it's relevant, or why you should even care. Well, I want to found a guild, one that speaks to my values as a gamer and as a person, both ethically and competitively. However, my experience is not nearly adequate to run the kind of project that I want to embark on, which is why I've come here to discuss the plans for my guild and perhaps gather a few like-minded souls who wish to help me build this idea into something more.

    This guild is a mere concept, but I want to share it with the budding Wildstar community. I've already posted a sister thread on WSRP to elicit interest and discussion there. However, WSC hosts the stronger progression-minded community and I am interested in what other raiders and PvPers have to contribute to this discussion. The basics of this hypothetical guild will be in bulletin form, a rough outline if you will to clearly map out what I intend for this guild to be:

    Location
    • Unknown Faction, Leaning Exiles
    • RP-PvP or RP-PvE Server

    Focus
    • #1 Goal: Competitive, Server First Raiding & Beyond
    • Competitive PvP Endeavors Into Battlegrounds, Arenas & Warplots
    • Supportive, Roleplayer-Friendly Atmosphere That Embraces Everything Wildstar Can Offer in Content
    • Role Models Of Our Server, Sporting Community Events: Player Workshops & Roleplaying Events

    Expectations
    • Inclusive, Friendly Environment Without Cliques
    • No Elitism: Play Competitively, Act Modestly
    • Improvement Driven Community: Striving to Become Better Players
    • Helpful Membership: Providing Assistance Instead of Criticism
    • Personal Responsibility & Maturity
    • Laid Back & Silly But Serious About Progression
    • Roleplaying Optional But Encouraged & Respected

    In short, I want to find or be a part of the founding of a progression-oriented, competitive PvX guild that strives to be the best it can be in not just raiding but in PvP as well in addition to everything else Wildstar has to offer, including roleplaying! However, these goals I have in store are lofty aims, but I nonetheless wish to meet them. Unfortunately, such a vision cannot be reached on my own and will require a team of dedicated and like-minded individuals who'll stand with me and help make this hypothetical community a real one. I am coming to Wildstar alone, but perhaps with the help of others, we can begin to build a strong force going into Wildstar's release that will make a positive impact on the game, the server and roleplaying community, and will provide a home for the competitive but down-to-earth players that want to reach for the sky and have a damn good time doing it with cool people.

    As of right now, this is just a rough sketch of my ideas. I have nothing set in stone now and I don't plan to until I am sure where I want to dig my roots. However, I want to pitch my ideas out to the community and hear what you all have to say. If anyone has extensive raid or PvP experience, especially as leaders, I would love to have your feedback on my proposed guild and where I should take it. Likewise, if my guild philosophy speaks to you and you are interested in perhaps collaborating with me to bring this experience to life, I'm looking forward to hearing and working with you. I am open to any and all questions and feedback as long as it's constructive.


    Final Note
    I've had virtually no experience in guild leadership and only minimal officer experience. My experience as a raid leader is also very limited, although I do have a lot of raiding experience. However, I feel called to step up to the platter with this new game and build a vision of my own. For this reason, I do not want to make such a huge leap on my own. In fact, I am only interested in building the kind of guild that shares my interests and values. Whether I am at the helm or not is inconsequential, as long as I can experience the best this game has to offer with the right kind of people. What I am proposing here is not about me, but about creating a truly great gaming atmosphere for creative, competitive, and character-driven players.
  2. Dannan

    Dannan Cupcake

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    This honestly sounds like the goals I want to meet for Halcyon. Though I am still not 100% on the RP aspect of things, I wouldn't be closed to it. I mean I'm a writer for crying out loud, so characters and the like are something I would be comfortable with.

    I'm all for this idea just because it does put progression raiding as the number one priority for the guild. That's a huge deal for me, role playing is fine but I haven't had any success raiding in guilds that are a bit too heavy into it. If it's a supportive aspect of the guild, where you're working with people to ensure that they have a friendly environment in which to do it, that would be awesome.

    A guild like this has a lot of things going for it, I love the idea of mass appeal, and the feeling that everyone can do anything in the game whenever they want. This is actually the idea that Halcyon was founded on, and the only reason I tend to avoid Rp-PvP realms is because our core seems to be against world PvP in most situations.

    Honestly though. This is a stellar idea, and I really like that you brought it up.
  3. Thrice

    Thrice Cupcake

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    I have had experience in the officer and raid leader position. The number 1 issue always came down to babysitting. Getting 25 people (WoW) 20 people (SWToR) to not only be on time but to focus on a single task is a feat to itself. That is why people join progression guilds because "usually" they have the same mindset of accomplishment and this cuts down but does not eliminate the babysitting factor. Cliques happen and there is nothing you can do, some people just get along more or are friends from beforehand.

    Lots of folks would love an utopia progression guild that downs content quickly and everyone is good friends. It is more rare than a legendary weapon :) Just like any relationship you have to take the good with the bad.
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  4. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    My experiences in raiding have shown that while there are people with mixed interests in terms of which game content they want to focus on, roleplayers tend to stick to more "casual" content and hang around various hubs to chat in-character or play out plots they've designed with other. While there's some, roleplaying and raiding seldom mix, which is why I don't plan to enforce any roleplaying requirements but instead make them optional for those who are interested and at the very least create an environment where people's playstyle preferences are at least respected if not shared. Generally if people have good attitudes and aren't crummy people to begin with, respecting others ought not be an issue.

    I wouldn't require all members to be involved in all aspects of the guild, only those that they've signed up for as well as just being a positive and helpful member of the guild. This means that raiders would raid and guild events and recruitment would prioritize the PvE side of the guild until it's taken care of. If raiders also want to PvP, they could join the arena and warplot teams along with the exclusive PvPers. Everyone else would either be strictly roleplayers, friends and family, or social members that enhance the environment of the guild, all while stomping out cliques like the bugs that they are.

    That's a bit more in depth on what I had planned while addressing your dissent as well.

    Thanks for the feedback! :)

    It's certainly a lot of work and I don't expect everything to go how I want it to. I have however been in some guilds that had some good people in them but were terribly cliquey and the leadership didn't make an effort to make the environment more welcoming and inclusive. Bigger guilds (especially with WS's 40 mans) will be more prone to this but I hope that at the very least, the overall guild attitude is a positive one and people come together when it's time to get s*** done and find camaraderie in one another.
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  5. Thrice

    Thrice Cupcake

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    No prob :)

    My only question is what do you think the GM needs to do to make it a non-clique environment?
  6. Dannan

    Dannan Cupcake

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    I think the best way to do that is by staying active in the game as a guild leader. A lot of times you see very passive guild leaders especially in raid focused guilds. If you're going to run a dungeon you have the ability to pick and choose who you want to come with you. You can alternate people in and out and sort of encourage social interaction between members who might not always interact. You can do this in other things as well, RP events, in game events as well as crafting parties.

    Keeping an active forum is also a good way to keep people together and keep cliques from forming. Just my personal experience though.
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  7. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I would say part of it has to do with what kind of people you recruit. If you just recruit good players, you may not get good quality people. I think to start, you want to recruit for quality players who are quality people as well. You can't completely eliminate cliques unless the guild is small enough but you can get people who at the very least are kind and respectful to one another and will help each other out even if they don't know each other too well. People of character will still be kind to other guildmates which will promote an environment of inclusivity. Naturally people will always prefer certain personalities over others, but there's a lot a guild leader can do simply by how they determine who joins the guild that can make the guild less cliquish.

    Expectations from leadership has a big impact on the guild's environment. This also includes eliminating bad apples who're causing trouble or drama or who are complaining about loot, etc. I think who the guild leader surrounds him/herself with for officers is critical too, because if the leadership circle becomes too cliquish in and of itself, the pattern will begin to resonate throughout the guild.
  8. Relapse

    Relapse Cupcake

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    I've found it's pointless to waste energy and resources on trying to avoid cliques in a hardcore raiding environment and any attempt to do such is just like that awkward week in middle school where your counselor decided the students should draw cards and be forced to sit together at lunch with people they don't get along with. Even if all the original players magically somehow got along with each other pre-launch they won't stay in touch with 25+ people trying to communicate in a VoIP channel at once and new players will trickle in and keep to themselves, their referrer, or other new recruits.

    Dissolving cliques shouldn't be a concern as far as raiding progression goes. If the player is meant to be in said environment, when the time comes and 20 or more of you are in a channel ready to raid you put your differences aside and get <REDACTED> done. The Raid Leader should be the only one with their mouth open 50% of the raid anyway. As long as the guild leader and officers can keep themselves non-biased in a loot council environment for the better success of the guild instead of personal gain there should be nothing to worry about.
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  9. Insult

    Insult Cupcake

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    I agree well said.
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  10. Thrice

    Thrice Cupcake

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    That all is well and good but actually implementing that is a giant pain in the butt. The GM (as you know) is already wearing many hats...asking them to invest more time so people don't get butt hurt is a bit silly. If you want to be included in runs then it is up to you to be proactive not sit quietly and hope they pick you to go...
  11. Dannan

    Dannan Cupcake

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    You never said anything about people being butt hurt. You asked what a GM needed to do to discourage the formation of cliques. Feelings weren't involved in your question at all.

    On the subject of difficulty, and how much you're asking of the GM, it's honestly not that difficult. You play the game, you bring people to do content. You're already playing, you just try to have some variety in what you're doing. It doesn't really matter what's going on (Dungeon, PvP etc...). You also make sure to surround yourself with competent officers who will also encourage people to group together, because more often than not the cliques are going to form around those people.

    Honestly though. I've never felt cliques were really that awful, most of the time when you get more than 2 people in any situation you'll end up with differences. The real problem isn't the existence of "cliques" as you call them. It's making sure that whatever differences there are between your members aren't damning and don't result in unneeded drama. That's where the good and long lasting guilds separate themselves from the flash in a pan guilds. Different groups with different interests will exist. It's all about making sure that they co-exist with each other.
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  12. Thrice

    Thrice Cupcake

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    What do you think happens when people are not included? Are you telling me you have never seen anyone get emotional (aka feelings) in an MMO? I thought it was implied...

    Doing it day in and day out would get tiresome. Sorry but I have dealt with the public for work and dealt with many raiders/guildies and an overwhelming majority is selfish and all about me me me. I may sound pessimistic but I am also a realist, people suck.

    What are you going to do when two people refuse to group up together? Do you take one or drop both? Someone is going to get butthurt...


    I never said they were a problem, I said (paraphrasing) that they exist and will continue to do so no matter what a GM does.


    **edit** I am not trying to come off as a jerk, your points have merit I just see the glass as half empty. I am enjoying the conversation :)
  13. Bisqquit

    Bisqquit "That" Cupcake

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    Cut through all the waffle and its a standard lfg thread. No groundbreaking info here.
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  14. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Hahah I think we're reading too much into what was stated in the OP. Maybe I need to edit my post a little to clarify, but striving for something and achieving it isn't the same thing. Like Dannan said, the elimination of cliques isn't necessary, but instead is to be monitored to the extent that your guild doesn't become a bunch of mini-guilds inside the guild.

    As an analogy, it's the difference between North Korea and the world vs. China and the world. One is part of the world but essentially doesn't participate in world affairs, while the other is very active in the world, and in trade in particular. If people prefer certain guild mates TOO much, then there is a problem. It's a balancing act. In this case we ignore what happens in the raid, because like what was said earlier, during raid time, all that matters is that voice chat is clear for communication and that the raid follows the raid leader's directive. The point is that people can get along, be respectful, and don't completely keep to themselves or those they're most comfortable with. I don't think that this is an unreasonable or unrealistic expectation for a guild if the guild leadership is proactive in this area.
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  15. Kethrym

    Kethrym Well-Known Cupcake

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    Those are great goals and expectations. It'll take some pretty great personalities to pull that off though. Raider and Elitist usually go hand in hand. Generally Raiders aren't helpful to anyone that isn't in their raid group. I'm not saying they can't be. I'm saying due to time constraints and raiding schedules they end up being isolated from most of the server population.
  16. Lesh

    Lesh Cupcake

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    Your goals are literally all over the place and your expectations are utopian. If you try to go for everything you'll end up with nothing. Your guild sounds like a fun leveling guild but in the end raiders will go to raiding guilds, pvpers to pvp guilds, others to something that suits them better. There is nothing wrong that, it can still be an awesome guild. There was a guild like that on my server, it was huge and it lasted for years, it was like a university of wow. If you want to be competitive you have to specialize.
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  17. Dragon

    Dragon Cupcake

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    What this chap said.

    To give an example, my wow guild started out with very similar goals. Stoney wanted Big Crits to be all-inclusive, friendly, non-elitist, with a primary focus on progression raiding. For the most part this worked decently well and it was a good environment, but BC was never exceptionally competitive on the raid scene. Gradual changes to the officer core resulted in a shift in our goals, and raiding started to take priority over being "that one super nice guild". Suddenly we were actually competing with other guilds on our server and region. At this point, I don't think most of the original BC raiders would feel very comfortable in our raids. We do have cliques and people who hate each other passionately, and there's little anyone (let alone the officers) can do about it. What it comes down to is this: when it's raid time you either stow it or you can find another guild.

    I'm not saying that progression guilds have to be full of jerks to succeed, but if strong competition is an important goal for your guild, it seems wiser to carefully manage the least awful of them rather than try to exclude them all.
  18. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I think the original intent of my goals outlined in the OP were misunderstood. I'm not trying to create some "utopian" guild or anything remotely of the sort, but I know for a fact people can control themselves and behave properly even if not everyone is their friend. Guild leadership can still have a hand in making sure the environment is positive and competitive. All that needs to be done is disciplining dickish behavior while recruiting high-caliber players. Great players might have to be turned away in the recruitment process despite the potential they may have to contribute to progression, but this decision is best to ensure the longevity and overall happiness of the guild. It's not too much to expect the people you play the game with to be decent people as well as great players.

    Anyway, it's sort of a moot point by now as I've decided to join Halcyon for the time being. I may try to return to my plans to start up a guild of my own but my aims as of now are to gain more experience in the competitive scene and perhaps a role as an officer before I set out on my own or with a team of friends and build my own guild (should the need arise).

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