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A DPS Engineer's place in RDPS endgame

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by calcifer, Feb 11, 2014.

  1. calcifer

    calcifer New Cupcake

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    Do you think the ability for the DPS engineer to soak up damage with heavy armor in place of having mobility is more worthwhile than having exceptional mobility while accompanied with light armor, like the spellslinger possesses?

    Also for a pve stance, will the dps engineer have a place in raids, compared to a more pure RDPS class like DPEspers and spellslingers?
  2. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    I will only say they'll have a place in raids as a DPS.

    It's just the same as people saying if Stalker/Warrior dps have any place in Raids. Engineers atleast have the bonus of being ranged on top of that!

    Also we don't know the type of damage he does, what if the Engineer does psysical damage while Espers do Magic damage? Mayby having over 50% of the peeps doing 1 type of damage (Magic) will just be totally a stupid choice for your raid as some bosses might be better against 1 of the 2?

    Anyway....they'll have a place!
  3. calcifer

    calcifer New Cupcake

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    Quite the good point on the type of damage. I'm definitely liking the engineer and seeing all these streamers playing spellslingers is making me want to get on an engi and top the pvp charts
  4. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    o.0 you meant in PvP?
    Here I thought you were talking about Raiding :D
    Heck in PvP I see them having even a greater place with the extra durability ;)
  5. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Cupcake

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    The higher the armor the lower the dps. 5% is what heavy armor characters are supposed to be behind.
  6. Spepijn

    Spepijn New Cupcake

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    Well, we kinda do know what type of damage the engineer does. (physical/technology just like the warrior, stalker and medic. The esper and spellslinger do physical/magic damage).
    The "less mobility" people are talking about can be solved by amp's. Keep up the Pace (tier 2 assault amp) increases the engineers movement speed by 12%. Combine that with Urgent Withdrawal and the mobility should be more then fine (for raiding at leased. PvP it might be lacking slightly but with a good use of cc, dashing and sprinting, it should be ok I think)

    And Spiff is talking the truth. The dev's have said that the damage difference will be around 5% wich is small enough that chosing the right Tiers/AMP's and skill could compensate for.
  7. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Plans may be changed, if the 5% is seen as too great of a difference they may even tune it down to 4-3% eventually.
    And it may even get changed per class! I don't expect them to generalise the Warrior/Stalker/Engineer just because they have better armor. Seeing as warrior is melee and engineer is range.

    But indeed for now 5% is the best indication to give :up: (but for the min-maxers they'll figure out it may not be the case at all)
  8. SoaperStool

    SoaperStool New Cupcake

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    Can anyone point me to a recent developer confirmation of this? Better yet, could a developer chime in this? I had planned on playing a Warrior, but if it's true that Warriors will be intentionally inferior then I'll be forced to play a Spellslinger.

    For the OP: From a min/max perspective, the class with the highest dps will always be first choice when it comes time to fill dps slots when there's equal skill. Assuming the other posters are correct, you'll want to play either a spellslinger or esper if you want first dibs on end game raid slots.
  9. SoaperStool

    SoaperStool New Cupcake

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    5% is at least 5% too much if you're goal is absolute balance. All classes should be equally desirable in the roles they perform. That should apply to all roles: tanking, healing, and dps.

    Also, melee generally lose another 5-10% over ranged from raid mechanics. So the difference between Warrior and Spellslinger may end up being closer to 10-15%.

    The thing I don't understand is why armor is the only form of defense that gets penalized? In most games range is a better defense than armor. Why is it only armor that's penalized? Why not range? Why not deflect?
  10. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    No but that's the problem with the information. We don't know yet if the 5% are flat numbers or if they've taken into account that melee ussually do less damage then ranged, and then (taken that into acount) the range/melee difference will only be 5%.

    Also the stalkers seems to get a penalty into deflect instead of a huge armor penalty (for having less armor then the engi/war).

    The 5% only caused more confusing amongst people without explaining their thought process exactly or detailed describtion of how the 5% is counted (effectively or flat out). Hence why I keep saying the sentence of ''they may tune it down'' in these kind of threads because I feel Carbine will try their best to balance it out a good as possible.
  11. SoaperStool

    SoaperStool New Cupcake

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    When did they say the whole more armor = less dps thing? Do you have a link or something. I don't doubt you, I'd just kinda like to see it.

    It would be nice if Carbine came out and made this clear. If it is indeed their intention for some dpsers to dps better than other dpsers, some tanks to tank better than other tanks, and some healers to heal better than other healers, they should make that clear before launch, so that people don't roll a class expecting to get something that Carbine doesn't intend to give. It won't be that much of a disappointment for me to roll Spellslinger dps if Carbine truly intends for them to be 5% better. What I don't want is to grind a dps that's intentionally sub-par up to max because I was unaware of Carbine's intentions.

    Likewise, if they intend Warriors to tank 5% better, or Espers to heal 5% better - since medics wear medium armor - then they need to make that clear from the beginning so min maxers know to roll those classes.
  12. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Well I have to go no within 120 seconds :p So you'll have to wait till after work....(12hours).

    Or unless someone like Kataryna sees this....they'll most likely link it to you ASAP :up:
  13. SoaperStool

    SoaperStool New Cupcake

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    Np, I'm in no rush :)

    Also have they said if they're doing the same thing with the other sectors of the game? i.e. Will Medics heal 5% worse because they wear heavier armor? Will any of the tanks tank 5% worse?
  14. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Cupcake

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    I heard it somewhere. I believe it was frost who said it. It had to do with balancing PvP as I recall. I think the idea is because movement is such a large part of the combat in this game, that in raids it isn't going to be ranged standing protected firing at a boss While mele are constantly having to move not only to close the gap but to avoid Cleve damage. Everyone is going to be moving alot and the lower the armor the more telegraphs you will have to avoid where as heavy armor characters could potentially stand there and eat the damage and not have to move therefore the amount of damage the two different classes can dish out would even out since mele may not have to move quite as much to avoid damage as ranged. It goes for pvp as well, since there are no lock target attacks and ranged will have to move so much and potentially miss more then mele, mele does less damage to compensate if that makes sence. That's the theory the question is will that work. I'm posting from my phone it is hard to type and edit so sorry if it is confusing.
  15. SoaperStool

    SoaperStool New Cupcake

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    PvP is interesting, as melee almost need more help in PvP to be competitive than they do in PvE. The biggest problem generally stems from people targeting what's closest to them, and the larger the scale of the fight, the worse the problem gets. For example, look at a game like Rift who's melee classes - despite being balanced to be 10-15% above ranged - were all but useless in medium to large scale pvp until Trion implemented melee-pvp-only health and damage buffs on top of the general 10-15% advantage. Even with the current pvp only buffs and general 10-15% dps advantage, melee are still useless in large scale conquest fights other than to go full tank and act as a distraction.

    With Wildstar's focus on skill shot combat in place of tab targeting, I think this will be much less of a problem than it is in most games, but I do think people will still tend to aim at the players closest to them.

    I'd say this is the case with most recent games though. All the recent MMO's I've played have had both melee and ranged characters constantly avoiding mechanics. Melee usually have more to deal with, and generally die a bit more than ranged, but again, I think this has more to do with ease of development than anything else. It's easy to design telegraphs that only lower melee dps. It's harder to design telegraphs that lower melee and ranged dps. And it's harder still to design telegraphs that lower only ranged dps. Ranged flexibility is just inherently better.

    Mechanics generally only lower dps when they force a disconnect, and it's harder to force a disconnect on a ranged character than it is to force a disconnect on a melee character. It may be even harder for a game like Wildstar, as perhaps the easiest method of forcing ranged disconnects - not allowing ranged to cast on the move and forcing movement -, Wildstar developers seem to be vehemently against. Most ranged classes in Wildstar seem to have quite a few abilities they can cast on the run.


    If they can implement it in such a way that Warrior/Engineer/Spellslinger/Esper dps ends up being equally desirable, then that could potentially work - I still see one potential issue that I'll bring up below. My foolish hope is that all of the 6 classes can perform any of their available roles at an equivalent level to all other classes that can also perform that role. By that I mean all tanks should tank *equally, all heals should heal *equally, and all dps should dps *equally. I purposefully *'ed equally as I don't want to give the impression that I necessarily want absolute equality in the true meaning of the word, but if class A and class B are not equal in their output, then there needs to be situations where class A is more desirable than class B and vice-versa, and those situations should be equally common.

    The other potential issue - I mentioned earlier - I see with armor as a means of limiting disconnects is that you introduce a whole new level of tiresome trial and error gameplay on top of the large amounts of trial and error that we usually see in most end game raid systems.

    My fear is that melee dps, rather than spend the first 10 pulls of every randomized instance of every boss trying to figure out what telegraphs they can and can't "eat" will just resort - or be forced - to simply try and avoid everything. In fact, one of the main worries I have for this game's tanking system is the trial and error game tanks will likely have to play in figuring out what telegraphs they should and shouldn't try to avoid on these randomized encounters. As a dps with less armor/health/deflect to work with, the trial and error problem will only be less forgiving.

    Given the same degree, ranged attacks will always be easier to land, as the people you're aiming at are further from the center of the circle, and thus have to cover a greater distance to escape the same degree of telegraph. This may be why a lot of ranged telegraphs are rectangular in shape rather than circular - like most melee telegraphs.

    Indeed. And you did a great job in posting all that from a phone. Anyways, good discussion. I think it's good that we're thinking about these kinds of things prior to launch.
  16. calcifer

    calcifer New Cupcake

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  17. Koe

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    I've heard more armor = less DPS, too, and I think they've repeatedly stated so on the class livestreams.

    I know I've heard it at least once on there, I think it was the Spellslinger one. I'm at work, so I don't know exactly which, but I know it's been said--They did say that DPS "stances" can make up for it that lower your defense, but that's really only available to Warrior afaik.

    While it's understandable that more survivability should equal less DPS, if they want all DPS to be competitive for world first type situations(which is the only place where a +/-5% will effectively matter) then a 5% difference will not stand, because everyone at that level is plenty skilled, and depending on raid mechanics 5% is a HUGE deal. 2% would be better, and would be fine. I believe 2% would be more in the realms of an RNG difference/slight skill differences, but 5% is way too big for these kind of situations.

    This is a VERY hard thing to balance, and especially so depending on how they balance PvP. Are abilities going to be balanced together, or are they going to have unique tweaks to just PvP or PvE?




    Edit: Also, about how you say classes should be equally desirable, even if they aren't equally balanced in all places--I can agree, as long as what you said(the situations are evenly presented).

    Looking at skills I think this is already kind of the case. Engineer/Medic look like they put out/can put out more AoE than the others(with medic getting more utility, Eng more DPS), Spellslinger looks like it'll be top ST DPS, Warrior looks like sustained DPS/best target switchers, and Esper looks like it can burst AoE or ST.


    Edit2: I also want to say that RDPS in WS does not seem like RDPS in other MMOs. They are more close, and especially since virtually all melee telegraphs have a fairly big range/AoE. I mean, from when I played Rift, Marksman would be WAY further back than what RDPS seem to be in WS. There are, like, 2 exceptions I've seen from the Livestream--Both Spellslinger abilities with a CD, and can't move while casting/channeling/whatever.
  18. Jicmonster

    Jicmonster Cupcake-About-Town

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    Personally i'm reserving concerns surrounding class raid roll viability till we start hearing back from the raid/endgame testing.
  19. SoaperStool

    SoaperStool New Cupcake

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    The problem I see is that armor is not the only form of increasing one's survivability. Range is also a form of survivability - and generally a better one at that - so why is it not being penalized 5%? Why is deflect not?

    If the goal is to equalize dps by allowing heavier armor characters to stay in on more telegraphs and thereby increase dps uptime, then they need to either make the armor effective enough to where Warriors/Engineers can basically stay in on anything, or they need different color telegraphs to signify what they should and shouldn't stay in on. Otherwise, no guild leader is going to purposefully wipe their raid 10 times on every boss so that the Warriors/Engineers can figure out what they should and shouldn't try to dodge; they'll be forced to try and dodge everything, just like everyone else, and thus be relegated to subpar dps.



    I actually disagree with this somewhat. I fully expect there to be a > 5% difference between the best and worst dps come end game at launch. If they can manage to balance things within 5%, they're very good, and I'll be very impressed. Most games generally get it within 10-15% at launch and slowly whittle that down over the course of several years. Given my expectation of > 5% difference at launch, it's not the 5% that bothers me, but rather the fact that they're intentionally making certain classes 5% worse at certain roles.

    I'm a bit weird in that a like to min/max to the extreme, but I can't see myself playing a class that's worse by design, even if it's a class that I'd ultimately enjoy more. To throw in a Pokemon reference, I'd use Charizard over Charmeleon, even if I preferred Charmeleon as a Pokemon :p


    MM was 40m in rift. Spellslinger has some 40m abilities, but most are shorter. Other range classes in rift were 20-35m .
  20. Nexus Elites

    Nexus Elites Cupcake

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    I haven't heard the more armor = less dps comment before, so that's news to me. I think Blizzard tried doing this with WoW, but with hybrids doing less damage than pure DPS classes. Did it really work out in the end? Nope. I think expectations of a "Class Balance Utopia" are unrealistic for MMOs. Plus, how would Carbine actually implement this so-called 5% nerf to Engineer dps damage? Your damage output is determined by your LAS and your AMPs before anything else, so unless all of your abilities are doing 5% less damage, I don't think they can really control it. The hardcore theorycrafters out there will be sure to find the best LAS to do competitive dps, so I wouldn't worry about losing your place on a raid team. Sometimes utility is more welcomed in a raid than "more deeps'.

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