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A VERY Comprehensive Review for WildStar from a 1%er [WARNING! This is Long!]

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Crucifer, May 9, 2013.

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  1. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    Before I get started, I wanted to say I will likely be adding to this list the more I discover about Wildstar; and I will gladly add my opinion to any questions people have on Wildstar.

    To begin, who am I? Why do I matter (/w I don’t ;) )? My name for as long as I can recall in gaming has been Crucifer. If there was anything I could be described as from birth to now would be a gamer, a 1%er. Finding online gaming changed my life when I got involved in Quake. I became very competitive and had to be the best. This carried through till I was one of the top CTF players in Quake 3, one of the top counter-strike players in the US, the number one Twink PvP player in WoW for 3 years straight (I will get more into this later), was a part of Carnage Gaming for many years ranked top 100 WoW PvE guild, and with Carnage was also the #2 ranked guild in the world to achieve 60/60 in SWTOR’s release raid content. I was also a very hardcore streamer prior to streaming becoming monetized. I was one of JTV’s first producers and many people might know me for being a WoW streamer from those days.

    Why am I writing this? Because I am bored of gaming, and that scares me...there has been something lost over these past few years that no one can seem to get right anymore. MMOs feel bland, stale, and lack in my opinion love/passion. They fall to compromises and timelines, they think day 1 updates are ok, and that conforming is the only way of innovating. I am going to take some time with this post and I am going to go through a lot of things I believe the next great MMO needs to do and not do. From everything I have seen from Wildstar I feel it’s got the juice...but does it have the balls to follow through. Can it avoid being blinded by the same things that have caused the failures of so many others these past few years? I will say right now that these are my OPINIONS they may not be everyone’s opinions, you may not agree with me, but I hope to just help. If anything comes of these suggestions I personally think it’d be for the better, not for me, but for everyone looking for one more great MMO experience.

    So, let me begin with the one thing I feel should be the first and foremost thing to avoid and will be a staple throughout this post of things not to do:

    - Do NOT cater to casuals –

    This has got to be the biggest mistake every MMO company makes, it is the #1 mistake WoW has made and continues to make. And it all begins with %’s, numbers, with a big old $ in front of them. If 99% of your player base is casuals, and you want the most $ then you should listen to them. This has been the mindset of almost every MMO for the last 4 years; and it is right here where you’ve already dug your grave. Casuals do not play MMOs to aspire to nothing, they play the game for the same reasons everyone does...to dare to dream of bigger more epic adventures. When you take the bigger and more epic adventures out of their line of sight because you are just handing them the epicness without any effort then they lose their passion. Yet the 1%ers are the ones who really pay the price because what is left for them? Nothing...why try hard to be the best if anyone can be the best?

    I dare you to try to name the last MMO that you truly felt, EPIC!...The last time you walked into a village or city and a guy walked past you in the most badass raid gear and you stopped in your tracks in awe. You wide eyed and drooling over gear that maybe 3-4 people in the entire country might have. That you felt so lucky just to see someone of that caliber walk by you. When these feelings happen to casuals, to new players, and to players of old...what it does is radiates inspiration. “I can be that guy!”, “I want to be his level!”, “OMFG How do I get that!”

    I have shown a picture for years to friends of the last time I can whole-heartedly remember in an MMO where I was stargazed at a player in an MMO (I will share the picture below this paragraph.) These feelings only come from a game where casuals may never get to feel appreciated, where the game feels DAMN HARD (Vanilla Vael), and where NO GEAR is bought for gold from vendors. These things make a game have a sense of achievement, and I don’t mean by giving you achievements...I mean by actually making you feel rewarded for being awesome. With that brings me to point #2:

    [​IMG]

    - Make a game you LOVE –

    This seems so ridiculous, telling developers to make a game they LOVE. Why would they be making it otherwise? For one money, two someone’s telling them too (papa bear publisher), and three because they have dreams of grandeur. Developers and publishers alike need to stop chasing $$$’s and focus on the players. Stop worrying so much about payment models, what to charge people, how to best the Titan that is WoW (oh the puns). Make a game that if you weren’t ever going to get paid a dime for you’d still want to play day in and day out till you died; because there is NO replacing that passion! Don’t expect to be rich, expect to have fans, expect to have fun, and expect that your work will be appreciate not in dollars...but in compliments. Gamers will follow...because we talk to each other A LOT; more now than ever before! Remember IIRC days of old...now go log on reddit/twitter/twitch...insanity.


    Let’s take a look at some recent games where the developers didn’t care at all about the bottom line. Didn’t expect to make a dime at their games, but pushed on anyway because they loved what they were making if not for other people but for themselves...Minecraft, Super Meat Boy, Braid, Bastion, LIMBO, League of Legends and in my eyes the most important of them all DayZ. No other game will ever show you the power of the gaming community’s voice than DayZ. You take a game where a single guy was just having fun messing around in an engine for his own pleasure never expecting a single thing to come of it. Using a very old platform, and only showing it to friends and family. Then all the sudden, it spread one word by one word...and then exploded. Never before has a game with that much passion and care taken a game that not many people played let alone was not a blockbuster (Arma 2) and propelled it straight into the atmosphere YEARS after its release.


    Even when you look at WoW people forget WoW’s humble beginning. When EverQuest players laughed at the Alpha, thought it was horrible and the UI...oh god the UI. However, the developers were determined to make a great game...not for money, but to play themselves. I remember well before blizzard had a community team control the WoW forums when developers were replying to almost every single post, when you’d put a ticket in for a bug report or issue and you didn’t get a customer support representative, but you got a game developer asking how it could be improved. How intertwined the developers were into making WoW perfect. They wanted to listen to their players, anyone interested in their game they respected and wanted to hear from. This has gotten lost over the years as the money started to steampile in and just take a look at WoW now. This obviously leads into point #3:


    - Listen to your players not their wallets –

    I won’t make a huge rant about this it’s more to mention. Don’t worry about my money so much, I’ll throw it at you like crazy if you just listen to the real concerns we have. Gordon Ramsey has been one of my inspirations for a long time and he has a great saying: “Great chefs, great food, great decor, but they seem to forget the first 3 rules of running a restaurant – customers, customers, customers.” This is a saying that means don’t forget who your market is it’s great to have all the best fluff in the world, but if your ignoring the players and just throwing money at DLCs, Expansions, Content updates...you are going to lose people FAST!


    We will be here to support you, if you are here listening to us! Now let me talk a bit about how to be profitable, and not fall into the death trap that is “What payment model should we use!?!?!” This has been the MOST PERPLEXING and baffling thing I’ve seen in MMOs for YEARS!!!!


    - Don't launch with 200 servers –

    Another massive mistake many in the industry make when their game begins to hit the hype train is they over-prepare for their launches. Everyone wants these silky smooth launches and think that the launch itself is everything. When it literally means nothing compared to game play. No one gets launch day right. Not even the mighty Blizzard, cough Diablo 3 cough. You don’t lose people over the first day you lose them by crappy game play / horrible story, and no end game.


    So start small no more than 10 servers at launch, and only upgrade to 12-15 servers if they start breaking at the seams. Expect dissipation after the first 2 weeks so don’t get overzealous and start ordering servers in 20 packs, because your first 10 servers exploded. This is a profitable disaster. Let people come and try the game before knowing what the final numbers will be. Stop adding servers once you start seeing 1-2 new servers only reach Medium populations. DO NOT ADD MORE AT THIS POINT!


    You want your servers to feel packed, the more people the server has the more ALIVE the game feels. The more ALIVE the game feels and the more people bustling about the more you feel connected to the world and that the game is doing well. If you took those numbers are spread it over 200 servers your game will feel dead, abandoned, empty. (SWTOR) Then you have to localize and admit to server merges, or closing of servers completely to downsize to make the world feel larger.


    Look at a game like TERA who launched with a mere 10 servers. They’ve even subtracted that number down to 3! This consolidation is to keep the game feeling ALIVE. Don’t overshoot on servers, this is a major cost savings, it’s a smart business model to grow into more than have to downgrade into less. Keep this in mind and you will be golden! Speaking of servers let’s talk about shards...


    - Do NOT shard off zones, no instanced areas, phasing... –

    I am just going to call this the SWTOR mistake. Do not shard off zones, phase game play, or instance off zones from the world. This is an MMO I don’t want reasons NOT to play with other people in the game...I want reasons to run into as many people as possible. Nothing makes a game feel deader than to run into a giant zone that has me in a shard with 5 people because 75 people filled up shard zone 1.


    Let me get this off my chest right now...if you can’t hold 75 people in a zone you have no business calling yourself an MMO. Want the experience I am talking about load up SWTOR run to Hoth and fly around in anything other than shard 1...hell you can do it in shard 1....and tell me how desolate, empty, bland, boring, and a waste of time the game feels. I play MMOs to play with OTHER PEOPLE. Don’t find reasons to take that feeling away from the game. Whomever, thought this was a good idea in the first place should be removed from the industry. This brings me to the next point of making a game zone feel dead and empty:


    - No Flying Mounts / No Instant Mounting (TERA) / No Portals to zones. (Including Raid Portals at player housing / main cities) –

    Whoa, whoa, whoa! This is a SCI-FI MMO...you mean no space ships! That is absolutely correct. One of the worst inventions to any game ever was the moment WoW added flying mounts to the game. It took everyone out of the world and killed it, and the largest problem is once you take this terrible step it can NEVER EVER be undone and WoW has dealt with that for a long long time about how to get people “back into the world.” You can’t have people just fly over the world and then expect them to stop and enjoy it. You as developers should feel INSULTED to have flying mounts in your games.


    You spend years, hours, hard work building these environments and then let every single person just skip right over them because it’s “casual, and convenient”. This is a mistake, and goes back to point #1 do not cater to the cry babies who don’t want to ride out to their quests, or dungeons, or raid portals. These little moments make the world feel alive...and if you are a TRUE Vanilla 40 man raider then you know that feeling when you see 40-50 people ride out from Kargath / Thorium Point towards their raid objective...and it’s even better when you see both factions #1 raiding guilds collide at the entrance and the ensuing PvP that breaks out to get the upper hand of the night. These interactions are completely lost when you just fly by and land right inside the portal to the raid zone.


    One of the largest concerns I have so far is the portals at player housing / homes; or in major cities if they plan on being there too. These are CANCEROUS! A MISTAKE! Avoid these at all costs. Do not let people have any reason to avoid going into the world. Don’t give them a way to teleport from their home, to a raid/battleground/dungeon then right back home again. You will KILL your game with this! Its effects are disastrous! I will talk a little more about this soon when I speak on Dungeon and Raid finders.


    It also ruins any semblance of World PvP, another long lost enjoying factor to MMOs that gets consumed by flying mounts/portals taking its experience right out of the game. Now with that said do not make the same mistake TERA has done concerning this where you can just instant ground mount out of combat. That is too easy of an escape. Mounts need a (long) cast timer you should not be able to just freely get to run away from World PvP. You are at WAR, stand and fight or die with honor on the field of battle.


    - Dungeon Finder / Raid Finder ok – no free teleports -

    On the same note as above, I am ok with a Dungeon Finder / Raid Finder in MMOs, but it should be used as a PARTY FINDER ONLY. Do not teleport the party/raid to the actual zone. Make them run there like the old days...get people out into the world. FORCE them to live in the world. Don’t let them just idle in a city and teleport to everything they want to do. This goes the same with Battlegrounds. Don’t let people sit inside a city and just teleport to and from battlegrounds. Make them run to the Battleground. Make them have to be a part of the world. Don’t make the game so convenient its mind numbing. MMOs like this put people to sleep they are so boring. If the only reason you have to go out in the world is to do dailies then your game is going to die. Remember convenience is casual’s mindset, and casuals kill games.

    - Don't have more than 1 capital city per faction –

    This is another pet peeve of mine, having way to many major cities, leaves many cities feeling empty and not lively. Then there’s one that is packed. When there should just be one that is busy and bustling. However, this does not mean that people never leave. This should be a pit stop shop to get materials crafted and hit up the bank and auction house. Not a place you live, breathe and die in. There should be no portals here, no teleports, and no easy routes to places. It’s just a city...I drive into Atlanta everyday in a car and I drive right back out of it in the same car. I don’t teleport back home once I’m at Atlanta. I don’t live my life in the city; I go back out into the world to hit the mall, theater, and baseball games. I got things in the real world to do and I can’t do them from a city. This should be the same in MMOs.


    Don’t mistake this for 1 centralized city for both factions...this was also a mistake in WoW. Factions should not co-exist. They should be Lore driven to hate each other to be at constant war. One of the biggest gripes every year at Blizzcon that never gets followed up on EVER is that they are putting the WAR back in Warcraft. It’s been too long since factions have felt like rivalries. Keep your faction cities separate and have them meet in the field to battle.


    - Don't separate PvE and PvP –

    I will go over this a lot more below when I get to PvP and Battlegrounds; however I wanted to touch on this a bit here as well. Ever since The Burning Crusade MMOs separated out their player base into PvEer’s and PvPer’s, and in that moment they doubled their work, doubled the frustrations, and segregated their players from each other. This is another extension of the no instances, no phasing, and no shards complaint. You never want a reason to make people feel less involved with each other.


    Back in Vanilla WoW great PvPer’s started as great PvEer’s, they had to interact together. They had to get the gear to be stronger than the next guy in the arena. They had to play the story and be a part of the grind. They didn’t get to go in a zone, kill people, come out and get to buy all their gear from a vendor with gold for little to no real work. And you may say how can you say PvP and Arena’s isn’t work or a grind...it used to be. But now you hit 5 games a night and wait for reset, you get handed gear or you get carried to gear. PvEer’s don’t have such a luxury...months of work may have gotten you 2-3 drops back in Vanilla WoW. You were busting your ass 3-6 hours a night 3-4 days a week in raids. This is work, and this work feels rewarding when the rewards come.


    PvPer’s had a tougher time of it back then as well, getting to actual PvP gear at end game was hard work and demanding. Getting the title along with it felt rewarding and special. Getting that same title now feels like a joke. PvP should be treated as a side game of the main story / game. You should do it for fun, but remember that the real work and rewards are in PvE and in the world. NO PVP GEAR SHOULD COME FROM VENDORS! I will go over that more soon below when I discuss PvP in-depth.


    - NO WELFARE!!!!! No Tokens, Bosses drop GEAR/LOOT!–

    I mean it! Make getting awesome gear F#@! HARD to get...don't give it to everyone...the biggest thing lost in MMOs is the feeling that your character has achieved greatness. I went over this earlier, remembering the last time anything felt epic in any MMO. It’s because nothing is hard to obtain, nothing takes work anymore. Gear isn’t even given as drops anymore you get crappy tokens from bosses that you then have to go give to vendors. If I could just remove vendors from MMOs completely god I would. Remember when killing a raid boss dropped actual gear, that instant satisfaction of putting on that piece of gear 5 seconds after killing a boss, not having to fly across god greens earth to a vendor to get it. That moment of epicness is lost in that transport. And once the epicness is gone for you it’s gone for others around you.


    PvP reward vendors should not even exist...PERIOD! Battlegrounds should reward you with titles, just like military in the real world. You get a rank, that rank increases with your rise in the field of battle. If you want a better gun, build it, craft it, or obtain it from thy enemies. You want PvP gear you should have to go craft, mine, or kill a raid boss like everyone else. Something out in the world that you have to do not something instanced just for yourself. PvPer’s should not be able to hide in a mini-game and never co-exist with others in the game itself. They need to be a part of the world too. Give nothing for free. Everything requires work for the reward.


    - No DAILIES –

    Just say no! These are mundane menial tasks that no one likes doing. We’ve passed the WoW days of old and have created dynamic events in MMOs; there should be enough dynamic world content outside of the world that is ever changing that has me gaining reputation or stature with people that is not the same every single day. I don’t even want there to be quests...just let me roam the world exploring and if I happen to kill a dynamic world even and it gives me honor with a faction great! Don’t tell me to go do the dynamic event as it is not dynamic at that point. Let me explore the world and adventure; don’t make my in-game life as trivial as my real life day’s work.


    - +/- weapon systems are awesome! –

    What an Asian MMO feature in my Western MMO! Absolutely! This has got to be one of my favorite features from Asian MMO’s. What am I talking about? I’m talking about weapon upgrading like in TERA. Where your gear can be upgraded +1, +2, etc. This keeps HARDCORE players trapped chasing perfection. “I must get +12 on ALL my gear!” This eats 1%er’s alive nom nom nom! It’s nothing short of just making them more enticed to keep playing your MMO. So even after they have all the best raid content gear they still haven’t perfected the gear itself! This will drive them insane, and is an amazing way to keep them in the game, playing the game.


    This one simple addition should be in every MMO, forever forward. This adds so much longevity to the core elder game. Like player housing and obtaining all that can be had for your house for casuals this is the meat and bread to what drives 1%er’s. The quest for perfection, to be #1, to have everything maxed out! This is the feeling of Epicness!

    - Lore –

    Don't make the story about how great everyone’s character will aspire to be; that they are the chosen one; that they are the only savior of the world. Many games make this mistake where you get told a lot that you are "the only champion / the greatest warrior" news flash...in games like WoW the "champions/warriors" are the Faction Leaders which players never get to aspire too. You are always beneath these NPCs never passing them in power or greatness. This makes everything even if you don't see it blatantly feel wrong. There has never been an MMO where someone has the ability to become an Elite General or Faction Leader. And while this would be groundbreaking and amazing...it can never happen logically without a lot of risk vs. reward for developers.

    - Telegraphing –

    This has got to be one of my primary complaints about Wildstar’s game play so far. Telegraphing to me screams “kiddy pool” How difficult is the game going to be if like a GPS system is telling you when and where to move. I want to learn these mechanics myself not have bright lights showing me not to stand here. You might as well add in sound bites every telegraph that says “MOVE OUT OF THE BIG GLOWING CIRCLE” as it has the same effect. This is a casuals dream feature, and a 1%er’s eyebrow raiser.


    If you want to build a challenging game make it challenging, don’t give us the answers right up front make us work to figure them out. Nothing was as great as the first Vael Bomb wipe in Vanilla and being like “WTF JUST KILLED US?” .......”Oh so we need to tank swap that !@$!” ....”Alright, get back let’s do this again!” Games need to be harder; gamers are getting better at games and faster at picking them up. If you kiddy pool your game from the start no one’s going to find the game appealing. I play and love TERA for what it is and I can see the telegraphs without a giant circle on the ground blinking to move. I don’t think anyone is going to need one in Wildstar!


    -40 man Raids –

    So after listening to Total Biscuit’s Wildstar videos and the mentioning of the aim for 40 man raids, I was taken aback. This is a MASSIVE RISK, and possibly a great reward or a terrible death mark, especially with recent news like Exodus / Vodka falling apart.


    When the 1%er’s of the world are having trouble even manning 25 hardcore players anymore, because the 1%er’s have grown up over 8-12 years, have lives, jobs, kids and other worries you can’t expect them to fill 40 man raids. The new age of MMOer’s have been bread and buttered to be brought up as casuals, which means your core 1%ers are gone. Games got to easy and no one’s replacing the old guys from the days of UO, EQ and Vanilla WoW. Back then the 1%er’s were 14-16 years old grinding MC/BWL. Eight years later those same people are still your core 1%er’s but they’re not 14-16 years old anymore. The new age 14-16 year old kids are raised in Minecraft and Call of Duty. They don’t know the grinds and hardships of UO, EQ, or Vanilla WoW. They are not bred to be 1%er’s. They expect welfare and Raid Finder to be easy and quick rewarded. They DO NOT know the hardships of what it takes to run a 40 man raid. The type of guild leader it takes to control 40 people at once! This could be disastrous for your Elder Game.


    The opposite and possible rewarding part of this is would be that there is FAR FAR less raiding guilds; and in turn far far less raiders. This ironically adds a sense of community to servers. Everyone knows the top 2 raiding guilds on their old Vanilla WoW server even today because they were likely the only 2 raiding guilds on your server. Those badass guys in the badass armor which belonged to a group of 80 guys in a server with 6,000 people. You likely knew all 80 of their names; you knew you were in for a good time if one of them was in your dungeon runs or battlegrounds. They were EPIC! They were your inspiration and your drive. This is a good thing to have. This is gets lost if there is too many 1%er’s and too many raiding guilds and too many raiders you end up with a situation like this:


    [​IMG]


    Everyone begins to look exactly the same, no diversity, no one stands out, and no one is epic. This is dreary and boring. What would the world be without the 1% who people see as role models, people to strive towards. Is it odd to say we need fewer raiders in harder raids? The sacrifice there is having hard worked content seen by the 1% and not the 99%. This has been WoW’s struggle for many years...if the 99% are paying the same as the 1% but they’re not getting to see the content the other people are paying for is that fair? This is the conundrum.

    - Twinking, Battlegrounds at max level ONLY, No PvP Gear Vendors, Tarren Mill vs. Southshore –

    I saved this one for last, as to me it is the most important. The core to what all MMOs lack / lost. And part of me cries inside that I am about to recommend that Twinking not exist in an MMO; because I loved every minute of having the greatest Twink to walk through the world of Azerorth. Yet I know the truth now and I know that the right direction to save MMOs from the hardship that is early game battlegrounds is to not have them at all!


    That is right no battlegrounds or arena’s until max level is my biggest recommendation. It has never been done and or attempted. This would be a first in any MMO ever. To void instanced PvP until the top level. Why? What benefit does that add? How do you not lose PvPer’s who need PvP in their MMO to get to the max level? How do you keep them entertained in the leveling system without early game battlegrounds? Let me take a minute and explain it:


    I want to address why battlegrounds is a waste of time prior to max level. The prime reason is because developer’s in any MMO don’t give two !@#!’s about it. They put it in as a means to appease PvPer’s, but they don’t take the time to care about balancing it. Many try gimmicks to make it work but they all fail. Twinks run rampant in old school systems like 10-19. WoW tried to limit it to 5 levels instead of 9 levels but then the player pools so small that queue’s are too long. SWTOR tried a scaled up gimmick but level 50 40 characters with masteries and skills stomp on level 11’s with neither. Hunter’s run rampant with explosive shot at level 19 in WoW and yet Blizzard couldn’t care less. These are just examples of the situation. It’s a waste of time to try to manage battlegrounds before max level. No one finds them balanced and or exciting they are just a time sync for PvPer’s to do while leveling.


    Having battlegrounds only at max level means you can spend more time focusing on making those battlegrounds very balanced around what max level has to offer for the characters and skills. This gives you more room to get as much of PvP right as possible; and is easily focused on by a small team at the office to handle. Same goes for having arena only be a max cap level system. This is less of a headache for everyone involved the players and the developers.


    Now as developers you are probably like “No, there is no way we can risk losing the PvP community during leveling.” Well there’s a work around for that too. You need Tarren Mill vs. Southshore scenarios OFTEN during leveling. This revives what little of World PvP still exists in MMOs and gives PvPers the feasting they need to keep them going while leveling. For our few and far between friends who do not know what this metaphor is:


    Tarren Mill vs. Southshore is a metaphor to Vanilla WoW’s zone that was one of the first early level meeting points for both factions. They were similarly leveled in a very small confined space where quests overlapped. On a PvP server this was your first experience of war with the opposing faction. The place was always a battleground, and people were constantly fighting each other it was unavoidable. Absolutely no one from Vanilla WoW forgets their experiences in these areas.


    There has to be zones in Wildstar where players of similar level meet and cross paths in confined areas (close quarters) where quests overlap that cause disturbances in the day to day grind. This will result in “natural” PvP which is the best kind of PvP. Similar zones would be like Stranglethorn Vale and Nesingwary’s Camp. These will keep players alive, awake and PvPer’s grinning from ear to ear. Then once they reach max level they can go begin their PvP in Warplots and Battlegrounds.


    -Conclusion –

    I apologize for the length, but the final point to make here is to save the world you are creating. Force people to live in your universe not to sulk in a town. Get people motivated to be out and about and interacting with each other in as many ways as possible. DO NOT CATER TO CASUALS. Do not make the game easy. And by god make the game you’d want to play for the next 10 years with the passion and love that you’d expect anyone to make for you. People will come and pay reasonable costs to be a part of something EPIC. We just have to put EPIC back in MMOs. I appreciate anyone who took the time to read all of this and hope to see you on Nexus soon.
  2. Tiberius

    Tiberius Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is a very well thought out post and I think most, if not all, of these topics have individual threads about them already. I'd be interested to see if this huge post goes anywhere, but to do that you may want to Edit/Remove the subject of Subscription vs F2P. That's been officially banned from WSC and I don't think you or I want to see this thread locked.

    Making the game you love, not the one X Publisher tells you gamers will love seems to be the driving principle of the Wildstar dev team already. I feel it's in really safe hands, but I found it funny that a summary of this post is "Stick to your guns and do what you want, but here's five pages of what I want it to look like." Always nice to hear an extra voice from the community though, since it shows just how many different types of people Carbine has managed to attract while making something they love.
  3. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    Thanks for the response. I'm going to leave the Subscription part in and hope that an admin lets me know to remove it before removing the entire post. I want the notion that all Subscription models should not be the same to be something that people realize. I hate that it goes completely ignored in this industry.
  4. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    OKe finaly done reading the whole dam thing (except the payment part since that's a forbidden subject already so i won't even bother to read it since replying to it is a no-go).

    I must say you got some nice points and i agree with alot of it!

    However i can't help to get the feeling like you just didn't want to reply to all threads about all those subject and just made 1 thread to combine them :p

    Why i say this?
    Well you have those small headlines:
    Flying Mount
    Tokens
    40-man Raids
    Capital cities
    Shard off zones/instance zones
    Dungeon finders
    Listen to players and not wallets
    etc.

    All of these things have been done in other threads already (and i've replied to them aswell, so i kinda feel like it would be copy-paste if i reply in here aswell).

    I do full heartly disagree with your statement ''don't seperate PvP from PvE''.

    You state:
    I feel like you get influenced by WoW a little too much from this part, you keep talking about the past how it was better and not as easy.

    For the first thing ''interaction'' i feel like the Warplots will make this once again needed in PvP aswell, in order to get that end PvP gear! (but that's my point of few i don't know yet how they eventually make warplots, and how it will be doing....we can only guess at that).

    I admit nowadays in PvP you get gear far too easy! But you combine this to the seperation of PvE and PvP, there i disagree. They can make the PvP less rewarding (or at least make it harder to get gear). They can achieve that ''hard and long way to the top'' feeling even when it's NOT combined with PvE'ers.

    Combining PvE and PvP just make people almost obliged to do both, even when they can't coop (timewise) with both. You say raiding should take quite some time (i agree), but so should PvP!!! WoW's and other games PvP is just nothing in my eye's. It's too fast rewarding, too easy etc.

    But when you make PvP and PvE harder and the rewards not come by so easy it would be almost impossible to play both PvE and PvP. Don't forget that Wildstar focuses on End-game so there should be far more things to do for players. By combining PvP to PvE again + all the other end-game stuff Wildstar is planning to do i see a problem in people's time.

    People will not be able to attend PvP since they have to focus on PvE in order to be better in PvP, it even sounds strange to me. Since both PvP and PvE kinda requires different kind of skills, escpecially now with the ''break-out'' system and the dash/roll/double jump in PvP which normal mobs don't have!

    2 different kind of ''skills'' needed to play PvP or PvE so i think those 2 should be sepperated.

    However i do hope they make PvP more challenging, and don't give gear away by every win you get.
    Roguehandle, Shonk, Alverad and 2 others like this.
  5. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

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    I completely agree, it is long indeed.
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  6. Zap-Robo

    Zap-Robo Administrator • King Cupcake

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    Nope, we'll just remove that part for you. Also I've edited your title, since this is about MMO's in general and not WildStar specifically ("review of WildStar" was misleading). Moving it to Gaming Arena as well.
  7. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    There was a time when getting High Warlord / Grand Marshal gear was tough. It required loads of work and was one hell of an achievement. The problem is you can't just hide PvPer's from the rest of the world they are too large of a portion of the game. They need to be out and about.

    I was asked once "What was your favorite moment in all of your years gaming?"

    I answered: "The last two weeks of Vanilla WoW."

    Why? Because they shut down all the battlegrounds two weeks prior to TBC and told everyone that High Warlord gear could be bought with honor going into the expansion. So for two weeks straight Hillsbrad Foothills was a 24/7 warzone of PvP goodness...both factions tops guilds and random players slaughtering each other because there was no other way to PvP at the time to farm honor. Some of the most epic guild vs guild battles I've ever seen went down here. There's never been that feeling again in any MMO.

    I'd love to have that back...I'd give anything to get just a spec of the old World PvP that used to exist back into any MMO. But companies continue to harbor current generation WoW as the right WoW. And every company whose tried this approach has failed miserably.I don't want to see Wildstar in the same boat.
  8. Tiberius

    Tiberius Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is a big reason that the next wave of Beta is pure to test server load. They want us to crash their servers so they can see the limits they can put it to. I think you're over simplifying it though. In a slight rebuttal, the only thing worse than too many servers is too few. We make fun of Diablo 3, but lets look at it and it's companions.

    Diablo, Sim City, and many other server based games all suffered exactly because of what you want them to do. There are ways to handle server balancing. some more graceful than others, but a company HAS to over anticipate for launch day. That doesn't mean that those servers can't be re-purposed later when the player base steadies, but this is the reason these games had launch issues. There is no other greater leading factor to login/unavailability issues, unless the servers themselves die, in which the case for this happening is most often because it was overloaded. If people are stuck waiting to play a game they purchased they'll stop playing. Diablo 3 has a 'steady' player base now, but it is considerably lower than it would have been without the launch issues (not all server's fault; Auction House, etc). Sim City has no auction house to blame, they said it was simply that the servers couldn't handle the amount of people. They took away the most computationally intense game features, improved computation speed by 40% and added a few more servers, but it still got screwed.

    Blizzard, 8 years later, still has several empty loginable servers in WoW because getting rid of those 'spare' shards is a bad idea.

    TL;DR
    IMO No online company will ever have the "correct number of servers." It's either too many or too few, and 'too few' has potentially disastrous effects.
    Roguehandle likes this.
  9. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    The actual top players don't want raid gear or gear in general to play such a big role in PvP. So the whole notion of it being great it wasn't. PvP should first and foremost be about the player.

    Why? Because by bring such a large gear difference that constantly keeps on creeping up before the level cap is increased makes it less and less competitive. I don't enjoy facerolling players it bores me, i'm the type of guy in a TF2 map when the losing side is being facerolled i swap to that side, the only way for me to improve is to face better players. Not outgear them.

    Previous PvP stuff was simply a grind if you had 15 hours a day to grind you got warlord otherwise you didn't. I had nothing to do with skill or actual fun gameplay.

    Good thing the developers tend to agree that it should be split and therefor it is.

    Raid groups are falling apart because it's been the same old for so long and the reward factor is just too little why bother with 25 man and filling that roster when you can work with 10 what is so much easier too maintain.

    Tokens are not welfare, it gives additional reward for active participation, cause grinding that dungeon 50 times for that one drop to get somewhere is not fun nor a good design it's a time sink. Nothing more.

    I hope with weapon skills you don't mean "kill 1000 mobs of different level to eventually be able to get the full use of it" that dull grind is something that should stay in eastern mmo's. I don't like repetitive killing, i don't like repetitive killing, i don't like repetitive killing...


    For some reason you fear about 40 man raids taking too much time and effort to run with people managing real life yet at the other hand you suggest every possible thing that improves the QoL to be removed and want previous pointless annoyances to get put back in? Rather contradicting way of reasoning.

    There are reasons for somethings not to be in, such as flying mounts but no raid portals for 40 man raids is simply creating a hassle of the sake of creating one what is a design ideology i'm against. Even looking back and being nostalgic bad things are still bad and should remain in the past.
    Barcs, Risetta, morroIan and 3 others like this.
  10. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    I disagree a bit. Look at a game like Path of Exile. They got destroyed on their launch day and broke the cap on their server at 75,000 people. This did not garner them less players it garnered them more attention, their game grew and grew. And within 3 days they had more servers show up and operating to handle the load. It's always better to grow something than to shut down something. One has a great connotation with the press the other has a very very horrible one.

    The real hassle is having a world that doesn't have anything going on. Look at how SWTOR died. It felt empty, desolate, bland. You couldn't find anyone to do anything with. You give people too much QoL and they abuse it to the point that an MMO no longer feels like an MMO. That there is no work for reward that there is just reward. When everything you do gets you a doggy treat does that treat start to get bland?

    I pose the question to you...when was the last time in an MMO you felt anything felt epic?
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  11. SyberSycho

    SyberSycho Cupcake

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    Such a long read and I agree with a lot of what you are saying but as others have pointed out there are some flaws I see. To few server and you lose a lot of people right away never to return. PvP players having to do PvE you lose the new generation of MMO players. I do really much agree with requiring people to run there lazy bums to a location in the world though like for a dungeon etc.
  12. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Well again you just talk about PvP'ers here.

    I don't say hide them....but they are hiddin just like raiders are hiddin.

    PvE'ers get hidden in: Dungeons/adventures/raids
    PvP ers get hidden in: Battlegrounds/arena/warplots

    All instanced, so you only really see them in the city.
    That PvE'ers tend to do more dailies for Rep, is for me the only reason you see them more often. But i'm against rep grinds like in WoW in general anyway.

    PvE'ers aint out and about any more then PvP'ers in this view. The only problem was that gear could be grinded too fast for PvP, therefore they just did that and you didn't really saw them as much as PvE'ers.

    Get rid of the extreme fast gear progressing in PvP and you get your PvP'ers back. Make rewards for Open World PvP kills (against same level targets to avoid camping low levels) higher and solve the problem aswell.

    Warplots is a bit like guild vs guild and will give you that massive PvP feeling back a bit (atleast i hope so).
  13. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    I disagree wholeheartedly, PvP doesn't require the same constant profession grinds...cooking, fishing, rep farming, world boss grinding, etc. These things force PvEer's into the world. PvPer's hide in cities queue up 5 games then buy loot from vendors. It's insanely boring, annoying and casual nonsense. It should have no place in MMOs.
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  14. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Well warplots will make those PvP'ers grind, so just like my first post Warplots will change it (if done correctly).
    They will need to go out in the world to farm those defences together! They need monsters, mayby even recources for the cannons etc. so they will grind world bosses aswell.

    As for the ''can use food/potions in warplots'' we don't know, but i'm almost sure they will be able to be used in PvP and mayby with an addition like ''won't dissapear when dead'' so it won't be useless in PvP. So then they need to fish/cook aswell.

    Warplots will force the PvP'ers out! (again if done correctly, since we don't have too much info about them yet).

    My fear with you is that you have seen too many bad PvP things and can't see those possibilities without combining PvE to PvP. I agree there aren't any good examples you can use for the good thing of PvP, but keep the hope up that WS if not another game in the near future will have a better PvP setting.

    Warplots in Wildstar HAS the potential to solve that problem for you!
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  15. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    Has...but will Warplots provide the rewards PvPer's need. Take GW2 world v world setting with the towns you build defenses for then fight others around you. These things would not give PvPer's gear rewards unless they develop a system like Honor where the more kills the more honor the more honor the better the rank they have the higher rank they have the better gear they can obtain via crafting. I said crafting not a vendor! Then make them go out in the world and craft the materials to get the the best PvP gear. This keeps them going back out into the world.
  16. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Warplots will have the ELO system
    Also gear rewards will come in PvP like this:
    BG < Arena < Warplots (we can't say anything else about how to obtain the gear YET! so sorry for not answering that one, but i just simply can't yet!) Mayby you can buy plans to craft PvP gear? (BoP PvP gear then) Who knows?

    Warplots being the 40man raids for the PvP'ers, including the grinding for it!
    There will be leaderboards for raiding guild
    There will be leaderboards for Warparties

    As for getting back into the world, their defences can be destroyed which means they have to kill the world boss again in order to use him as defence! This is that grinding in open world you are looking for, but just not about gear materials but trough defences in order to obtain the best possible gear, because the better the defence is the higher ELO you can get.

    The similarity between 40 man raids and warplots goes far, as does the differences but by reading your posts i feel warplots will be something you need to look forward to (if done correctly).

    Not every 1 of your objections/fears can be dealt with, but then again you're just 1 person. They can't just settle things with about everyone.
  17. Tiberius

    Tiberius Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think you nailed the real issue in your response. It wasn't so much the lack of servers on launch day that hurt the games I mentioned, but that it took weeks to get it into a decent shape. 3 days is no small segment in 'gamer standard time' but it is still considered in a timely manner. Not all companies will be able to whip up a fix as quickly.

    The smart companies that have few servers still have extra/backup equipment for times of trouble (and that trouble will almost always exist during launch at some point). CCP has a cool setup. It doesn't quite apply to Day 1 issues, but when they know that trouble is brewing or a server is going to get excess traffic they actually switch it out with a separate super computer.
  18. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah, I just think start off slow and ramp up. Ramping down is always bad news and press eat it up like cupcakes. One fast way to kill your game is to be on Kotaku, IGN, GameInformer etc.'s main pages with "Server Merges / Server Shutdowns" next to your games name in a title. Versus "<Game Name> Adds 2 additional servers to handle ever growing playerbase." just entices more people to make the switch over.
  19. Jarinolde

    Jarinolde Cupcake-About-Town

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    1) Casuals - They WILL have to cater to them, if they want to be sustainable. What they shouldn't do is ONLY cater to casuals, which is what we got in a lot of more recent games (Guild Wars 2, Star Wars: The Old Republic).

    2) This isn't an issue, watching all of the videos and convention panels, you can tell they've poured their hearts and souls into this game.

    3) Not entirely sure what this part is about, so not sure how to respond either.

    4) Remove this part now as it is a banned topic. EDIT: I see this part has been removed.

    5) Agreed, though not to the fullest extent (I think there should be a couple extra servers than what is exactly needed).

    6) Star Wars: The Old Republic is an anomaly in this case. Most games tend to have mostly open worlds. You'll never be able to get rid of instancing. Sharding is only terrible if they're going with servers, whereas if they're going with a server-less structure (Like The Elder Scrolls Online) then sharding is perfectly acceptable. Phasing is a good concept, but tends to either not be done properly or overused (see the last 3 World of Warcraft expansions).

    7) I don't see the problem with instant mounting in TERA's case. I'm skeptical of Flying Mounts design wise, but I'm willing to humor whatever they have planned for them. The "Raid Portals in Player Housing" will probably be one of the most rarest features you'll ever see, either because it takes quite a long time to get or is prohibitively expensive.

    8) Agreed with the Dungeon and Raid parts, don't agree with the Battleground part. Most PvP'ers I've talked to said that making them run to the location added nothing to their PvP experience. RP'ers on the other hand say otherwise, but that doesn't matter (RP'ers shouldn't be asking for anything to be removed).

    9) Faction cities, agreed, there only needs to be one (though it needs to be huge and sprawling). A Neutral Capital à la Shattrath or Dalaran was indeed terrible, but not because of lore or story. It was a technical issue, one in which there were just too many players within one location, in addition to the very compacted cities.

    10) Disagree, I and many others hate it when we're forced to participate in content we dislike just so we can further ourselves in the content we do like. PvP should be its own separate game, not something that's just "a side game" to PvE.

    11) Tier tokens in World of Warcraft was one of the best things to happen to raiding, albeit it still needs some work. (Example) Hoping that 1 out of 4 glove tokens drop is better than hoping 1 out of 16 gloves drop. World of Warcraft's tokens are a bit too broad (covering too many classes and roles), but if they narrowed them down a bit (maybe just class specific tokens, or role specific tokens) then it'd be better.

    Also, gear is a form of character progression, and while the difficulty of this progression should get harder the further you get, it should not be prohibitively difficult. "Achieving Greatness" should be about what you do, not what you get.

    12) Dailies are good when they're done right. Burning Crusade (before Isle of Quel'Danas) did dailies perfectly, in my honest opinion. They were an OPTION to how you did some of the "mandatory" content, and mandatory for the optional content.

    13) While I too found it enjoyable in TERA, I feel including it in this game just for the sake of having it will only lead to the item system to become convoluted. If they were to implement something similar, it needs to fit in with their other design decisions and make sense for where they want to go with gear.

    14) Not much to say here, except maybe stay away from storytelling methods that lead into these sorts of problems.

    15) This all screams elitist talk to me. Don't get me wrong I'm all for difficult action combat, but when I have to tunnel vision a monster (à la TERA) just so I know when its going to launch an attack, then the combat is tera-ble (see what I did there?).

    They've hit a nice medium with their current telegraph system, it's telling you that AN attack is going to happen and WHERE it's going to happen, but it's not explicitly telling you WHAT it is or WHEN it is going to happen. This is a crucial design element allowing less skilled players to enjoy the combat with just the first two pieces of information, yet allow skillful players to gain an advantage with the latter pieces of information.

    16) The majority of core raiders back in Classic World of Warcraft were most certainly not 14 to 16 year olds. As well, it didn't matter if there were 40 raiding guilds on your server, as most people still only talked about the top 5 or so guilds on your server anyways.

    17) No, maybe save Arenas and Warplots for max level, but Battlegrounds need to be accessible while leveling. Players want to be able to experience PvP on their journey to max level, just like they can with Dungeons and Raids (through world bosses). Even though you said it didn't work, Star Wars: The Old Republic's leveling PvP is widely regarded, especially amongst very "hardcore" PvP enthusiasts such as Taugrim, as one of the best PvP experiences to be had in an MMO. Doing something similar in this game would be amazing.

    Tarren Mill vs. Southshore only happened because it is world PvP, which only ever happens on a large scale when it is the only PvP in the game (like it was for a while in Classic). With Battlegrounds, Arenas and Warplots all at max level, nobody will participate in your suggestion. They'll just rush to max level to get to the PvP that everyone else is participating in.

    Also, can you people please stop using the word "Twink" in relation to a PvP-devoted character that is not max level? It is such a terrible word to use in this case.

    My conclusion? You've hit some good points, but I disagree with most of your opinions. I feel that Camelot Unchained has more of what you're looking for than this game ever will.
    Kaldina, Esthyr, Dean Fry and 3 others like this.
  20. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am intrigued by your last comment as to why a term "Twink" bothers you as it's been that term for many many years. For kicks and giggles here is some images of two of my many Twinks from the old days.

    http://imgur.com/a/gQCCT

    Camelot Unchained will be too PvP Focused. I am a 1%er at heart...I need to be fed the blood of a raid boss on a weekly basis :D
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