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Best way to handle loot?

Discussion in 'Guilds, Circles and Warparties General' started by PseudoNimh, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. SituationSoap

    SituationSoap Cupcake-About-Town

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    It continues to amaze me that people still haven't heard of EPGP. DKP encourages hoarding points based off a desire to get the best items and be able to cherry pick which items you want. EPGP encourages players to take loot, even marginal upgrades, over it being sharded. You're right that it's wholly transparent, and because of the way the decay system works it effectively provides for a level playing field that's almost entirely based on how much someone contributes and how long it's been since they've taken loot.

    EPGP isn't a perfect system, but it's less bad than pretty much every other system I've seen.
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  2. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    The move from bad to good to excellent depends too much on the integrity of the players administrating the system. There will almost always be some rotten apples, or people who are getting tired of playing and thus fail to deliver top notch officership because they care less. Too many situations, where personal dislikes or likes effects the outcome. Even if it works right now, I would not trust it longterm.

    A transparent dkp/epgp system with decay has a bigger chance of succeeding with a fair and widespread distribution of upgrades by participation ~ higher net value for the team, rather than loot council that to an extreme degree depend on having a group of non-corrupted players managing it.
  3. AIMonster

    AIMonster New Cupcake

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    I personally like using a modified zero sum DKP system as it's the fairest mathematical system around. It's also a very fast way to do loot with EQDKP module installed on your site. A few things on the system:

    Standard of Zero Sum:
    - DKP values of items based on a calculation on stat worth and overall value of an item (for example "item level") which may vary by class.
    - DKP is subtracted from a member everytime a loot item is purchased, which is then evenly divided to members of the raid (thus the sum of all DKP will always be zero).
    - The player with the highest DKP value always has priority on loot, because they received the least amount of upgrades to participation usually.

    Modifications:
    - % based adjustments when new tiered raid content begins with much higher item values. Expansions usually mean DKP is completely reset back to zero for everyone. Prevents hoarding and keeps everyone at a relatively equal level to get new gear once new raid content hits.
    - Legendary and high status items have higher DKP values than their stats simply because everyone wants these items for looks and status, not just stat upgrades.
    - Forced looting if an item is a 20% stat upgrade to prevent hoarding.
    - Effort points (mentioned here) rewarded hourly on new boss encounters / raid areas only, until the boss is killed the first time. These slowly decay over time and are meant to reward players who put the effort into wiping to new encounters. Effort points are not rewarded for content on farm as the loot should be reward enough.
    - Quest items values are based on end rewards if end rewards are known and any other quest items in the same chain is automatically defaulted to the person who purchased the quest item initially.
    - Sidegrades (items with equal or close to equal value OR items specifically meant for alternate specs) cost only 33% of the item value's DKP; however an item only becomes available for sidegrading when everyone else in the raid as passed for it.

    The system may seem a little harsh by some standards, but I think it pretty much eliminates any problems that come with other loot systems (biased, hoarding points, more effort put into older content than new content, etc.).
  4. Yorobashi

    Yorobashi Cupcake

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    EPGP is probably the best way of loot distribution while remaining transparent about how loot is distributed.

    My favorite loot system to employ however is EPGP /roll. Setting a value that your EPGP must exceed in order to /roll for an item, the winner's GP is modified, this method helps completely weed out any chance of corruption within a system, how can a random throw of the dice be corrupted by those with no control over the system?

    I would also say Loot Council deserves an honorable mention. If your guild leader is trustworthy and attentive enough Loot Council is the best looting system, but then again communism is the best form of government on paper. Problem is, people can't be trusted to be truly fair.
  5. PseudoNimh

    PseudoNimh Cupcake

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    I want to thank everyone who has given input to this question. You all rock. It is obvious, like most things MMO, there are preferences, experience, and even innovative concepts. I personally still cannot pick one. Granted I have time (yay) to think about it before the game is released (hurry hurry hurry!).

    Based on everything I have read, there seem to be only these concepts presented:
    • DKP (Both normal and modified)
    • Loot Council (again some modifications, or normal)
    • Need/Greed based on some measurement
    • EPGP
    I'm curious if anyone has any other potential innovative ideas in specific that address 40mans since this is the largest size raid that Carbine has announced for Wildstar. :)
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  6. Silas Jasar

    Silas Jasar Cupcake-About-Town

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    Need/Greed (can always throw in priorty for the group memebers to keep in mind like full upgrade takes priority over rolling to strip a chip) if you trust the people your with and suicide list if you don't. Makes the system completely automated for both the leader and the other group memebers.
  7. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    TBH, I would have liked to see unique loot rolls in all instance/group content, with maybe normal loot options on none gear drops. It would totally remove any <REDACTED>ing over each other about looting and still leave something contested.
  8. Steelheart

    Steelheart Cupcake

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    There is no best way tbh. Not everyone is going to be 100% happy with whatever is decided on :(

    Important things is to be fair and honest with your membership, and have a system in place prior to actual launch of the game if possible.
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  9. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

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    With larger raid sizes and the attendance issues that come with larger guilds, something that is addon based (easy), takes past effort into consideration, and has auto decay would get my vote. Probably EPGP, assuming someone rewrites the necessary addon. I also don't mind Loot Council (if I'm not on the council), but don't like systems that make me bid.

    For me, loot is waaay secondary to the fun of raiding. I like it to be handled in the background rather than everything grinding to a halt while it gets discussed to death. I think I'm in the minority on that though.
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  10. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm with you in that minority.

    I suppose it really depends on if the rest of your guild has the same ideals for raiding. Most of mine is in it for the fun so Loot Council can work really well. It's generally a much more casual system, alternatively can be used for hardcore progression too, it's kind of both end of the spectrum, not so good in the middle.
  11. Turtlesrun

    Turtlesrun New Cupcake

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    the only way to guarantee a drama free existence of 40 mans is a understanding b4 the raids what is going to happen a understanding that what ever loot rules u go with that everyone abides to it every time without fail when u dither and change is when u lose and drama begins. DKP is your friend loot council in my opinion causes more issues just because these people are Picking which can lead to people believe in that's there might be favs.
    DKP in my own Opinion is that is the fairest way to do things if u raid more u get gear and aslong and people understand in early raiding times and loot is gonna be amazing for everyone and just hold fire on the QQ it will work out aslong as raid leaders and GMs run a tight ship.
  12. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    Varies depending on the guild/people.

    Modified DKP worked well for my first raiding guild - was like normal DKP but upon claiming an item your points are set to zero. If you have an inconsistent raiding force (ie lots of swaps or members only making odd raids) it gives people a decent shot at loot + discourages point hoarding.

    High end guilds I've belonged to ran DKP but in reality it generally ended up being a sort of guild wide loot council as we'd know who needed what upgrade most to benefit the raid as a whole and people would just pass for the person who needed it. DKP only really was used 'properly' for offspec items no main needed or where multiple people would get similar benefit from an item.
    Probably not a realistic scenario for most guilds though unless everyone knows each other well or are on the same wavelength in terms of guild goals.

    Another simple system if you have a fairly consistent raiding force is a need/greed style rolling system but once someone has claimed loot they can't claim anything else (unless no one wants it) until every other player has gotten a piece of loot.

    (haven't read all replies so apologies if these have been covered already).

    At the end of the day though some people get way too worked up over loot and will cause a fuss/try to exploit a system no matter what you come up with (/gkick would be my suggestion for those but it's your call).

    Edit: No matter what system you choose though it should be transparent (ie viewable to all concerned) - reasoning explained in the case of loot council. Helps to avoid any cries of 'favouritism' or 'fiddling the figures' etc.
  13. aiuradun

    aiuradun Cupcake-About-Town

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    How would you go about the prioritizing loot?
    I’m thinking like: Main-item > Main-Chip > Main 2’nd spec Item > Main 2 spec Chip > Alt’s?

    The chips kind of add another layer of loot that can be difficult to control in a raiding environment, and I’m guessing it could be easier to argue over ability chips than plain stats.

    Could also be that the ability chips are easier to get a hold of and the power input from the item is what really makes the ability chips worth it so that the main ability chip / 2’nd spec ability chip can be taken out of the equation.

    in regards to system i do kinda like having vetoes for loot for healers and tanks to a certain extent using class leaders /councils and than everything else be DKP or some other system dependent
  14. Simokon

    Simokon Cupcake-About-Town

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    I believe there was another thread on this somewhere... but how my guild handled it in wow was a simple need over greed with the caveat that if you won an item previously someone who had not gets priority. It is simple and elegant while not playing favorites with anyone.
  15. aiuradun

    aiuradun Cupcake-About-Town

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    Was this during vanilla/tbc or after the change to 25/10 man, because the difference when doing need over greed in a 10-40 man environment is huge (in my experience?)
  16. Simokon

    Simokon Cupcake-About-Town

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    I was doing it in vanilla through Lich king and I stopped playing then so we did it for 40 mans and 25 and it was not really a problem but I will agree it was easier with less people.
  17. Nekofest

    Nekofest Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm just going to sit back and hope WildStar has a system in place for raid loot that makes loot management systems irrelevant.

    Tired of dealing with loot drama and micromanaging DKP systems.
  18. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, basically if it ain't broke don't fix it. As mentioned by Primal, loot council is the best way to intelligently distribute loot for the greatest overall gain to the raid when properly working. The main issue is of course that a 40-man makes it hard to easily make informed decisions. If the guild or raid group is more casual a modification on need before greed makes for the least amount of drama aimed at the leadership.

    Major issues with DKP and other point systems is that players can opt to not spend them to have the best chance at the awesome legendary amazing weapon that only drops off of the boss at the end. This gives the chance for players which only care about "dem numbers" to make the wrong decision for the raid. This can cause loot to be given out by force by Need/Greed or Loot Council, which defeats the purpose of the point system all together.

    Now, Loot Council for a 40 man can be broken up into 1 or 2 guild officers plus the class officers for any class able to obtain the dropped loot. This will likely at most have 4 people making the decision, but at least have 3. The class officers will each nominate one player which needs the loot, and if the decision is a toss up, a roll should be done in order to avoid favoritism. Since there are only 6 classes in total, it is likely that the total number players in each class does not exceed 12. So, the loot council actually ends up being divided into less than 24 viable choices for each piece of gear. This ensures the raid always has the biggest relative gain.

    As for more casual raid groups, people are more likely to play favorites, as they are often friends and such, which will inevitably breed bad blood in the group. This type of group's health benefits from an objective system which the leadership has no control of. Need before greed is the obvious choice here, as "unfair" loot distribution is blamed on luck and the game, not the players. Leadership should still decide who is able to roll for need, in order to prevent ninja-ing within the group. In order to prevent one player from always getting the loot, preference of need should always be given to players which haven't received loot this raid.

    I.E. if a stalker and a spellslinger roll on a pair of gloves from the first boss, and the stalker wins the roll on the gloves, the stalker receives the gloves. Then the second boss drops a pair of pants usable by the same spellslinger and stalker, the pants are automatically given to the spellslinger, as the stalker has already received loot.

    I realize that this system could have the same issue as DKP, but less so, because players are holding out on a chance of rolling higher than the others who didn't get loot instead of holding onto points for weeks and weeks, just to be sure that their spot in line is saved. In other words players are more likely to go ahead and roll, and the ones who saved their need roll until the end have the same chance at the item as the ones that rolled on everything but didn't win any loot. So, players are statistically rewarded for rolling on needed loot, instead of stocking up.
  19. Rush

    Rush Cupcake

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    Loot master is the way my raiding group always ran it in BC and WotLK. If it was better gear for your character you were allowed to roll for it, if it wasn't then you didn't. It was that simple. No one was there to <REDACTED> the guildies over, so everyone was honest about whether the gear helped or not.
  20. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

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    re: The problem of people holding onto points for weeks and weeks is addressed by systems that have decay built in. If you hold your points, they slowly diminish over time.

    re: Need/Greed/losing priority if you win something, is that everyone in the raid is on equal footing. That might seem like a good thing on the surface, but it creates bad feelings when the guy who makes sacrifices to be available for the raid week after week loses to the guy who just showed up tonight and usually has horrible attendance, or the guy who just joined the guild yesterday and leaves tomorrow. Need/greed only has a place in a pug group imo. It doesn't reward the faithful. In fact it discourages them.

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