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Best way to handle loot?

Discussion in 'Guilds, Circles and Warparties General' started by PseudoNimh, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

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    So far, all I've seen them mention is Round Robin for whites and greys and Need/Greed for the rest ...

    Think it's going to be on us. This is assuming they even let things be BOE instead of BOP.
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  2. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    The leader still sets the need rules, so that temps can't roll if a main raider needs it. This allows for rewarding loyalty.
  3. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Agreed, I doubt Wildstar would put a system in place that people can't change. Everyone's different and likes different loot rulings, so putting systems in place are a waste of development resources for something that will not go over well with a lot of the player base.
  4. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    EPGP or Loot Council

    Tracked loot systems, I've enjoyed EPGP the most.

    Loot council I generally like but you have to have a damn good officer class to make it work right. I've encountered a few guilds that swore that they were unbiased and fair raid leaders but I was passed by for big upgrades despite being one of the top performers. The loot was given instead to a long time buddy of the raid leaders. Likely since I was a new recruit and not the most sociable or relatable person, I was passed for loot. The raid leaders upon my joining seemed to be pretty fair and unbiased people that were solely dedicated to the success of the raid team, but it became apparent that they held some guildies in higher regard since they were long-time raiding partners of the officers.

    I think if it was me and others who think like me who were managing a guild's loot council, I would do a fair job because I don't let friendships (if I even have any) interfere with distributing loot in such a way that most benefits the raid team.
    kur1 likes this.
  5. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Loot council if you have an entire group of class leaders and are a heavy progression based guild.
    Loot council is often picked but it requires less work while when done correctly it's the most work of all three.

    EPGP, if you simply want to get loot done quickly in a progression based environment.
    Suicide kings for casual stuff/alts.
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  6. Phyllo

    Phyllo Cupcake

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    ^This being the minority is unfortunate. =(

    I've run a loot council in most of the guilds I have been a part of leadership wise. I talk with members and engage with my guild, as well as pay attention to all of my raiders gear and needs. I would have sheets of what people wanted and needed and would talk with all of them about what they could let go so another person could get it etc. etc. I almost always have an idea of who is getting what before the raid even starts and have discussed it with the other council members extensively behind the scenes. When it came to the loot dropping everyone already understood who it was going to and why, not just in the council but the raid as a whole, because of the simple fact that I would take the time to explain it. Members would bring up their concerns to me if something went horribly wrong in tells and we would get any issues fixed while continuing the raid at the same time.

    It's really not hard for one of the officers/council members to actually pay attention to their raid and their guild and engage with them and talk about these things. If you don't care enough to do so then why are you in that council in the first place.

    I do realize this would be more difficult in a 40man space but what I would say to that is have more council members or guild members involved in that process. For example and to elaborate on what AcidBaron had mentioned, Class leaders could be established. They should know everyone from their class in their raid and their wants and needs. Once that is accomplished they can either talk to the council about it or hell they might even be the council. Those roles could also help your raiding as a whole as class leaders would be designated to make sure everyone knew their class and could maximize their potential.

    Get involved with your members!

    Hope this helps in any way. :sneaky:
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  7. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    This is a really interesting perspective on loot council. Since there will be at most 6 classes at release with some class leads also doubling as officers/g-leads, you'll have a system where each class lead/officer is responsible for a division of the raid force, and given the size of a 40 man raid, having 6-8 or so managers of loot council as well as guild leadership would avoid excess bureaucracy unless of course the leadership is corrupt to begin with.
  8. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    While my post was a bit of engrish reading it back,

    A loot council needs class leaders, For me personally a small council is not a good one for a large group of players. As with a point system i need to be able to justify every hand out of gear, otherwise you are planting seeds for distrust that will at one point become an actual argument against the officer team.

    If you want to do it serious you need the players them self to actual with regular intervals update what loot they want. This means you can hand out loot based on player priority in a council as it's impossible to do napkin math on each piece that drops ( fun fact: For WoW you have mr robot loot council web based addon that actual if people are signed up can rate a piece in points making it easier to give a theoretical best improvement)

    The other benefit is if you know what a person really wants and what boss they still need you can rotate on a boss to boss basis getting the most out of your raid and decrease the chances of loot going to waste or that odd off spec loot guy that never really plays his OS anyway.

    For loot council to work all players have to be fairly equal to avoid the question of
    "Should i give it to the worse player to help improve, or should i give it to the better player to improve" Either direction you go on this will come back to bite you in the ass, as you're dealing with humans not robots.

    On each loot piece the class leader will put forward the person in line of getting it, this requires the person to be reliable and not bias towards his friends in the same class, if this shows you have no choice to overrule his call and question him.

    When a person is put forward you generally go down to a quick yes or no vote or if multiple people are put forward a quick name pick. Majority wins again here if the raid leader or guild leader constantly but in to gear his friend again an issue on long term.

    It's a lot of hassle to run a loot council on a large scale, reason you see only small groups or bigger professional guilds do it, other big guilds do it to but suddenly find them self losing members every cycle due to distrust of those above them. It really is a tricky balance to get a loot council to run correctly but also fast you don't want to spend 5 minutes per piece of loot hand out, especially in 40 man raids were i expect something around 10 pieces to drop per boss.

    Now i am a rather cynical person and see the worst in players but that's mostly from experience cause when you don't you always have people trying to cheat the system and that goes for all loot system know people altering epgp values to put them self in advantage.
  9. Mad Water

    Mad Water New Cupcake

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    Survival of the fittest (and of the least latency):

    Place loot on FFA. First one to ninja loot and /gquit gets the item.
  10. CWFWS1

    CWFWS1 Cupcake

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    To be honest, the people that didn't like systems like dkp or epgp were always greedy, from what I found. If you show up to every raid prepared and do a good job you'll continue getting invites and, therefore, deserve the points....so you'll get loot faster.

    Sorry, but systems like these didn't create the "drama"...the people did. If you don't put in the time that others do and still expect the rewards just as fast...well, you're greedy. If someone was in a guild that used this type of system and still used the excuse of "I can't put in the time that some others do", then that person should've evaluated the choice they made to join that guild over another that better suits their needs.

    The people create the drama by being greedy. The loot system doesn't.

    Having said that, I think the system used depends on a given guild. Maybe one guild has a consistent group every week and another has quite the number of people rotating in/out. Obviously, the same loot system isn't going to make both of those raid groups happy.

    I also think it will depend on the way loot drops in Wildstar. Some games you may not see an upgrade for 6 months if you're unlucky. (WoW, for example.) Some games had loot and content being way too easy and it didn't matter what system you used. Loot was way too easy to obtain. (SWTOR)
  11. Fish

    Fish New Cupcake

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    The system we used in WoW was fairly simple and straight forward. It was a mix of DKP/Points and /roll. Even when we used it in 40-mans, we had very little loot drama. But in a loot-centric game, it's always bound to be a point of contention. We were pretty strict about loot drama, though. You get one warning about loot drama, then you're gone. Wanting an item is one thing, loot whoring is another. :)

    Anyways, on to the system...

    Showing up on time to a raid = 1 point
    Staying until raid is completed = 1 point

    Staying online as a standby during raid = 1 point

    To ensure that we had enough people every night we'd over recruit by 20%. So we actually had a raid roster of 50 people. Hence the "stay online as a standby" points. Also, you can add points for whatever you want. This is simply what worked for us. :p

    Most loot drops are rewarded via /roll. However, if someone really wants an item, they can choose to spend their points on it.

    By choosing to spend points, they spend HALF of their total points on the item (Similar to a "suicide" style system). If multiple people want to spend points on an item, the person with the highest points wins. Ties are decided by /roll between all people who are tied.

    We kept track of it all in an Excel spreadsheet that anyone could view at anytime.


    EDIT: I should also say that vanity items (like mounts, pets, etc) or Legendary items were given away via loot council. The council would consist of a random assortment of officers and normal members and we'd vote on the items ahead of time. The list would then be posted on our forums for all to see, so they can see if they are eligible for the given item and who will get it before/after them.
  12. Nemeses

    Nemeses Well-Known Cupcake

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    If its all guild (as we tend to be) then its greed /need , basic rule of thumb for us is, its only need if you can use it on the toon you raiding with at that moment, other wise its greed. (if you need it for a alt its still greed unless agreed otherwise before the raid)

    99.9% of the guild is fine with this, the other .1% we kicked years ago :D
  13. kur1

    kur1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    For a 40-man WS raid, which is being aimed at hardcore progression guilds, I presume Loot Council will be the loot distribution system of choice.

    Loot, for hardcore progression (not middle-of-the-road progression, not casual progression) is crippling if distributed in ways that are 'fair' or 'equal'. You funnel loot to the people who you know will be there 100% of all fights, will bump over stat Milestones, and parse the best in your raid.

    At the hardcore progression level (which is what 40-mans are being made for), even being on the roster means you're competent and will be at every raid. Thus, a system that allows for loot funneling to specific players works best. Loot Council is that system.

    If we're talking about non-hardcore guilds, EPGP is probably the fairest way to balance gear and attendance. But it's exploitable as people won't bid on upgrades to save for better ones (the downfall of many systems). Our own guild suffered from this, and we switched to LC as a result.
  14. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Being a long-term raid leader I have always preferred a loot council system.

    *The Council composes of: Guild Leader, Raid Leader, Assistant Raid Leader, DPS Officer, Healer Officer.
    When someone wanted a piece of gear we would link it in chat one at a time and members would list their current piece of gear they had on (that they would be replacing) and then votes were taken without members knowing who voted for who. Of course the rules for voting were made clear to the guild-

    1. A council member may not vote for himself on a piece of gear and is required to vote for someone else (As one of the council members boy can I tell you I was behind on gear constantly).
    2. If it is made clear or apparent that two council members have begun using a "buddy system" or a council member is showing favoritism they may be demoted or reprimanded. Like wise all votes must be made with a valid explanation of why they feel said individual should receive the piece of gear. This is to prevent non-sense voting and gear passing favors.
    3. Rank did play a factor in loot being distributed as our member ranking was based upon Attendance, Loyalty/Time in Guild, and willingness to support the Guild.
    4. A member may only receive one piece of gear per raid- exception was made if no one voted on the piece of gear or a member was not eligible to receive gear yet (aka first week trail)
    5. Highest stats/damage does not indicate higher probability of receiving gear, though higher death rate does receive a less likely chance to get gear
    6. If you're all full current tier and joe smoe is a tier behind you with a blue sword that has been showing equal effort in the guild and attempting to progress as a character- he is more likely to get the item as we need equal distribution of gear to ensure better group effort.
    7. Complaints about loot being distributed will result in less gear being received. It is unfriendly and causes group problems in the guild which will likely hinder everyone getting loot. This is also grounds for demotion or reprimand. Honest inquires or questions on how loot was chosen is fine but, asking who voted for who and continued outspoken expression that is not in whispers/officer chat will be grounds for reprimand or similar demotion. Reason for this is rule 1- it is more than likely you are complaining to an individual that hasn't received gear himself/herself in a long time as well and has likely shown much more loyalty and assistance in guild activities.

    Though this is a very important point to touch on. It isn't so much the system you use to distribute loot as the type of guild and the community within it. For example loot council works BEST in a hardcore or very serious raiding guild style. The friendly family guild it doesn't work as well as I've noticed they tend to prefer an "all equal chance no matter" style not caring who gets what.

    *Edit:
    Also I should note loot council when done right takes a little while to distribute loot. Since loot is a huge role and driving factor of raiding and success it should be made clear that taking your time with it isn't a bad thing. As mistakes in this department can hurt the guild extremely and can even lead to disbanding.
    Morphine likes this.
  15. Morphine

    Morphine New Cupcake

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    I don't agree. I think it would be cool if everyone got something, even if it was just mats or consumables. But gear I think should be rare. If I ran a raid and 7 of the same swords (albeit with different stats) Dropped I'd be slightly underwhelmed.

    Bigger problem is though I like loot council, who decides who gets what when the loot will have random stats, it's a little tougher. Does a player want an item to carry or to extract, does one superceed the other?
  16. PseudoNimh

    PseudoNimh Cupcake

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    I wanted to come back in after all the new posts and again thank everyone for their input. If anything, I have seen that there are a lot of opinions and the best options really come down to transparent rules that are all agreed upon by all the members. So again, I just wanted to thank you all so much!
  17. Awesomnius

    Awesomnius New Cupcake

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    The only time I've ever had to deal with a non-player specific loot system (GW 2 had different loot for each person) was in SW:TOR.

    The way we operated was that class specific gear (ie; tank stats) would go to a need roll for the class it's for. Regulars had priority over an off-raider. Once everyone was kitted out or if we got stuff that wasn't needed (ie; DPS item drops but all the DPS have something like it or better), it'd go to a greed roll with everyone.

    We usually alternated raiders so that the rostered raiders would all be kitted out and the off raiders wouldn't miss out. At the height of our guild, we had 2 raid teams, 1 for progression and 1 to take the kids through and kit them out.

    Sure it takes longer to progress but it meant that we were never found wanting for geared players.
  18. Flunk

    Flunk New Cupcake

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    I like the whole: Mainspec role NOW thing and they roll, and normally i've experienced that if some one needs it way more than the one winning it, they usually get it. Then off spec :) Or need main spec greed of spec. :)
  19. Quke

    Quke New Cupcake

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    Isnt it the never ending PvE all te leewtwhores getting.....well you know probably want let me print the word :D

    FAWK the lewt, why cant plp just have fun?
  20. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    I prefer the Guild Wars 2 system where everyone got something, and it was always different from everyone else. I didn't have to really pay attention to "Roll Need or Greed for this!" when it came up in the middle of something. It was just there, so I could play the game without being distracted. Other systems, well. I remember The Secret World's system clearly. Hours for the event, and there was still a good chance that I would not get a reward for it if the items that dropped weren't specifically for my 'class'. Even though in that game it was easy to switch your class from fight to fight.

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