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Best way to handle loot?

Discussion in 'Guilds, Circles and Warparties General' started by PseudoNimh, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. Kaelang

    Kaelang Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't see why people don't go for Need/Greed.

    If you're a guild, you just trust your members downright. If someone ninjas, kick them out. You're in a raiding guild, they'll want to stay if you're progressing through content, they won't risk having no loot, or raids, for than one shiny helm.

    I've always ran a Need / Greed MS / OS loot and never been ninja'd by a guildy.
  2. Malvious

    Malvious New Cupcake

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    If people cause drama of any kind just kick them the <REDACTED> out. Drama queens destroy your guild.
  3. Winzhi

    Winzhi New Cupcake

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    The best way would be if someone could make a DKP addon that could track an entire guilds points.
  4. Allorah

    Allorah New Cupcake

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    I personally think it should be DKP or Loot Council in conjunction with need. The person who has the most DKP gets first dibs unless they don't need something that drops. In that case they pass it to the next person with the most DKP that needs it. And also accommodate the lower levels by doing lower level raids so they can get their gear. In reg PVE I'd just say Need/Random ... in that order. This is one of the main reasons why I don't even like doing dungeons with PUGs. There's always one ahole in the bunch that has to ruin it for everyone else. You all know what I'm talkin' bout ;)

    They have guild sites that do that.. hence the importance of a guild website lol

    Eh.. that's not really practical. That's where your diplomatic skills come into play. What if they are causing drama because they're really getting the short end of the stick? You have to have an open mind and look at it from all angels.
  5. Winzhi

    Winzhi New Cupcake

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    I am aware, but doing it ingame, instantly and making the addons work together like you can in wow, is much, much easier and faster.
  6. Thrice

    Thrice Cupcake

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  7. Allorah

    Allorah New Cupcake

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    True.

    and from what I hear there are already a ton of addons in the works :)
  8. Flannan

    Flannan Cupcake

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    Agreed, I can understand newly formed guilds being hesitant on just Need/Greed since the guild is still getting to know each other. But for established guilds where the majority of the guild has befriended each other, Need/Greed works fine, with the occasional loot council if an item calls for it.
  9. Dracor

    Dracor New Cupcake

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    During vanilla I was a part of a fairly hardcore raiding guild and we went through quite a few different phases of our DKP system.

    The system has it's flaws, which we bandaid fixed a few times along the way, and item value could have been calculated alot beter but it in general it worked, it was a friendly group to play with and it did it's best to be fair for everyone.

    The primary foundations were that we wanted to encourage people to show up. Not just our core raiding group of around ~30 99% attendance players but also the 10-15 who would make the majority, but not all, and especially the 10-15 "subs" at the end of the day we knew we couldn't progress without these people, and so we made sure they were rewarded appropriately.

    Showing up on time, and being in the instance for the first ready check netted a flat gain based on which raid it was. For standard clearing DKP was earned on boss kill, varying values for each boss based on difficulty. Lastly for progression DKP was earned on the hour, which sometimes earned quite a bit on long nights full of attempts on a boss.

    Whenever it was time for a DKP increase guild chat and vent would be spammed with Standby send tells to one of the raid leaders. All players who weren't in the raid, but were online, and ready to replace someone who had to go received full credit for everything. Dedication was rewarded regardless of if you were the one specifically in there getting the kill.

    Item distribution itself was fairly standard. Items were assigned a value most of the time based off it's ilvl, and then a modifier may have been placed on it (such as a weapon costing 30% more, rings and trinkets that multiple classes would use costing 25% more etc). Main spec roles had first dibs, highest current DKP person that wanted it got it, direct subtraction and carry on.

    Tanking loot was actually distributed. It was an important part of progression and so it was actually assigned based on what we needed. Primary tank(s) were obviously geared first, then we'd slowly bring up a few who wanted to be the secondary tanks for the odd fight that used 4-8 tanks.

    The two biggest problems in the end were inflation, and the lack of desire to show up to trivial content.

    Inflation was handled at around the time Naxx came out, when we decided it was time to create a new 2nd tier of DKP, specific to naxx. We carried over 10% of what you previously had just so that those of us were still 99% attendance would get 1-2 items over people drastically below us, but we didn't just take anything we wanted. As an example I at the time would have had well over 10k DKP, spending 500-1000 on an item at that ilvl, and the nearest person to me of my own class would have had about 3k at most. So it was fairly obvious that something had to be done.

    At the other end however was dealing with trivial clears. Molten core by that stage had very few upgrades for 90% of the guild, other than the bindings, or the eye of sulfuras. However there were still people that needed things, especially the non 99% attendance group. In the end we had to give a very slight naxx DKP reward at the start and finish of these clears, once again to all of the standby as well but it had to be a very minor increase, just something so that the incentive was there.

    Now with that major block of text out of the way, how would this actually apply to Wildstar?

    Wildstar's loot system is immediately going to change how this all works. Main spec/Off spec is still going to be one of the major things, even if you were running this system but what do you do about needing for locks, and needing for chips. I personally would value needing for locks, as you can obviously get chips out of other lacklustre pieces. But how do you actually put a price on these items? I imagine you'd charge less if you're just pulling the chips out. But do you charge less if the chips are throwaway? Do you charge more if the item is already rolled closer to perfect.

    Don't get me wrong though, I love that the item system actually makes you think about these sorts of things. It is a no-brainer who gets what in the average MMO. What items are best in slot, and where to get them.
  10. Apothecary

    Apothecary Cupcake

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    Before serenity collapsed in SWTOR.

    We had a method where you earned points for helping out guild members, from helping in raids etc and time in guild.

    If an item dropped you wanted you could put forward a number of these points you had to get this items through whisper to the raid leader or officer depending on who was being the middle man for the people after the item, the highest bidder would get the item but lose those points also being locked out i believe for bidding for those type its (chest piece say you cant next raid grab another different chest piece)

    Any crafting related pieces went to the dedicated crafter or the crafter in the raid if it was BOP.

    It was a successful way but it could be open to cheating the system by being friendly with a bidder.
  11. Alex Moore

    Alex Moore New Cupcake

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    You know, when I first started raiding... DKP was like the "fair" way to do loot and loot council was the "evil" way to do loot. I've been a part of a large variety of systems. I usually don't care about loot in general, loot is a means to kill more bosses. I care about the kills, not the drops.

    But the more I raided and the more I enjoyed the people I raided with... the more I enjoyed just discussing loot opening and deciding who needed what the most and just sharing the loot.

    I usually was a tank, and our guild had 3-4 primary tanking people, and we were all good buddies. I mean we talked about the loot, even if the guild had a DKP system we decided who got loot amongst ourselves. That usually meant they got something they wanted more and you got something you wanted more. Loot always got around to everyone. If you were raiding for only one item, and someone else was there for everything, it wouldn't make sense for the person to take the one item you need just because they had the DKP, knowing that on the next X amount of bosses that night all the drops would go to them (granite, assuming there were drops for them).

    Loot always gets around, while 40 man compared to 25 man or 10 man does complicate things a bit more I truly believe that loot council/open discussion of loot makes the most sense.
  12. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    Any loot system you decide on will work as long as you support it well. When I say this I mean that the loot system needs to be part of your guilds culture. The most successful system I feel that I have ever been in is an open roll DKP system. We used this when I was in Dawn of Valor in World of Warcraft. It would not of worked though if it was not implemented as well as it was in our guilds culture. The benefits were as follows:

    1. People showed up on time with proper raid mats. Back then we had ora so guild leaders could actually see that you were coming prepared by being able to scan inventories for consumables.

    2. People that did not get into the raid stayed on standby because partial dkp was given to people that showed up still received points, albeit less just for showing up.

    3. People donated mats to our guild bank so we could fully fund the raid in consumables because we gave small bonuses to members for donating specific mats that we showed on the forums.

    In the end you need to trust whatever system you use. In my honest opinion the best system hands down is EPGP, aka zero sum dkp. It is the fairest way to distribute loot in regards to time played. In practice Loot Council is the easiest on leadership because what they say goes, and it is up to them to earn the respect of members to trust that they are making the right choices.

    The system that was most fun was DKP though. Yes, politics can be involved with it. Yes, there can be drama. If you are managing your members in the best possible way though, it takes the pressure off of the officers and leaders, and can also be a fun mini-game for members though. If you did your due diligence with recruiting I think this would be the best option. BTW, you still give a priority to tanks though =P
    Kinnabari likes this.
  13. Miatog

    Miatog Cupcake-About-Town

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    In general, need/greed is my favorite loot system but you need the right people with that and trying to get 40 of the right people will be harder than just 10 or 25 people.

    My next favorite option is EP/GP. EP= Effort points earned by showing up on time, making boss kills, if your guild wants to even donating to the guild bank. GP = Gear points EARNED by getting a piece of gear. EP/GP=PR. PR is your Priority Rating, the one with the highest PR has first dibs (if they can use it of course).

    With a weekly decay (my old guild did 20% each Tuesday), you do a number of things. It won't hurt anyone's PR, unless they hit a point where they've not gotten gear in so long the GP is at it's minimal level (needs to be at least 1 because you can't divide by 0). At this point, if they're just inactive, they're losing EP which means their PR is dropping. If they're showing up, they're getting a raising PR so when they finally do get loot, bam, they're way up there. This also helps to spread the loot around so everyone can feel like they're getting something.

    Of course there are times when the PR is slightly ignored, main spec gets loot before off spec, even if the off spec user has a higher PR.

    Different guilds handle off spec differently, some will say off spec is free don't worry, some will say off spec costs half GP so you don't just get all grabby at things that could be DE'd for chanting mats.

    All in all it's a versatile system that is very simple and very fair.
    Kinnabari likes this.
  14. Airhammer

    Airhammer Cupcake

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    I've always been a fan of Loot Council. The problem with DKP is it doesn't reward performance and you get the inevitable group of people passing on loot to wait for cooler stuff. That ends up lowering the raid performance . I'm really bad at that part myself! I'll never take an item if it would put me behind someone on else a weapon drop >.>

    Loot Council in the right hands works fine, but nothing is perfect. Yeah it can cause drama... but EVERYTHING can cause drama.
  15. hieko

    hieko New Cupcake

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    I think the Suicide Kings loot system is the lowest in drama
    The term Suicide Kings (SK) comes from poker slang. It refers to the two kings in every deck of cards who hold their swords horizontally. (The kings look like they're committing suicide by stabbing themselves in the head.) SK is a modified rolling system. It starts when each player rolls a number using an RNG. The officers list everyone in order from highest to lowest roll. When a piece of loot becomes available, all interested players tell the raid leader that they want it. The highest player on the list receives the item and, in doing so, "commits suicide." That player drops to the bottom of the list.
    Andrews, Scott F. (2010-05-10). The Guild Leader's Handbook: Strategies and Guidance from a Battle-Scarred MMO Veteran (Kindle Location 2082). O'Reilly Distribution. Kindle Edition.
  16. Shawn Smith

    Shawn Smith New Cupcake

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    I agree with this, if I understood it correctly by giving the gear to Rouge 2 you as a group benefit more as he will now do more dps than if you were to give it to the first character.
  17. Zaekath

    Zaekath New Cupcake

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    When I raided 40 mans in WoW, our guild used an open bid DKP system. I think it would be hard to argue that it wasn't fair, and it also provided some interesting strategic bidding / loot strategy, although I would argue that it's definitely not the most efficient in terms of guild progress.
  18. gechos

    gechos Cupcake

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    Back in my vanilla wow days of 40 man raids my guild wasnt big enough to do them so a raid community formed from about 4 biggish guilds and a few players here and there. We used a DKP system but also had a bidding system (all items had a min bid) for the items, so for instance if 2 ppl wanted the same item both would put bids in to try and win it and then it became a case of how much of your dkp you wanted to spend on that item. Tbh this prob isnt the best system as you had ppl bidding to up the price to wipe the other ppls dkp faster etc but for the most part it work (i remember getting 2 items on my first raid putting me into minus dkp and i got locked into about 5 more raids to earn it back .... that was a major shame :D )

    In my swtor guild we did a need/greed roll system with a lose of priority if you won an item which seemed to work well but they were smaller 8 man raid dont think that would work for a 40 man
  19. Freelancer

    Freelancer Cupcake-About-Town

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    TL has about 180 members at this point, split into separate PvP/PvE raid teams of varying difficulties, and we have all *near* unanimously agreed to loot council.

    Our question at the moment is how do we go about choosing that loot council in a fair way. It appears we are settling on having out class/role leads act as loot council members as well, since the leads would typically be the most outgoing, charismatic members. "Well-liked" in general.

    If anyone has any experience with loot councils outside of TL, we'd love to hear how you've seen loot councils chosen in the past.
  20. Kasern

    Kasern Cupcake

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    My preference is for the raid leader to hand out loot. Loot Master, or whatever the name of the system is. That said, I'm not my guild's Raid Leader, so I'd leave it up to him unless I'm raiding with him - then I want all the loot.

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