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Biggest Concern about the Stalker.

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Baamz, Nov 27, 2013.

  1. Baamz

    Baamz New Cupcake

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    My biggest concern about the stalker, or any other stealth class, is that stealth generally lacks good counter play. If you're unfamiliar with the term, here's a great video from Extra Credits explaining it.



    One of the best versions of a stealth class I've seen is Team Fortress 2's Spy class. The stealth mechanic in TF2 comes with many difficulties: limited duration, enemy players running into you and discovering your location, loud de-cloak noises, and a window of time when you unstealth during which you can't fire.

    One of the worst versions of a stealth class I know is WoW's rogue, where the only way to unstealth a rogue whom has permanent stealth is to spam your AoE abilities and try your hardest to keep him in combat, thereby preventing him from stealthing.

    Wildstar seems to have talked about 1 great mechanic that allows counterplay: the grass moves whenever a stalker moves over it while in stealth. I'd like to assume that other environmental features might react to the passing of a stealthed player: water rippling, sand parting, snow maybe having small footprints. However, this is an assumption, and you're likely to be caught in a situation where none of these environmental indicators are nearby to give you even a minute warning of your impending demise.

    The point I'd like to make with this is what mechanics seem to you guys as a good mechanic to be worked into stalker's stealth to allow counterplay? It shouldn't be frustrating for either player.

    I'm personally hoping to see the stalker's stealth as a limited duration, with high criteria needing to be met for the stalker to re-stealth once in combat. Additionally, I hope that the stalker's stealth will be broken upon reaching a certain threshold of damage while stealthed.
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  2. ruff_ethereal

    ruff_ethereal Well-Known Cupcake

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    Actually, as discussed in the Spellslinger Livestream, the closer the Stalker is to another player, the more their cloaking field will start to ripple and break apart. If a player is paying attention, they can quickly dodge out of the way of a Stalker sneaking up on them. I'm sure Carbine has given Stalkers movement hindrances when cloaked, so as to not make them super fast, silent killers.

    You just gotta pay attention.
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  3. Sneegler

    Sneegler New Cupcake

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    I think one huge thing that will make more of an impact than we realize now is just like in tf2 you can attack without actually having to see anything. So if you think a stalker is there I would assume you can just start swinging/shooting/mindblasting and all that fun stuff. I would assume they aren't invincible when stealthed
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  4. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    This.

    Every attack in WS is an AoE, unlike in WoW where some classes with spammable AoEs have a decided advantage over others when it comes to hunting rogues.
  5. Vossler

    Vossler Cupcake

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    Didn't the AMA also say that combat stealth goes on a long cooldown, like in the range of 30secs?
  6. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have no respect for extra credits. They act like they are the only ones with good ideas and knowledge about gaming. They tried to call firefall being a great mmo and that mmo is nothing but a joke in the gaming community.


    As for the stalker concern. Lets stop basing things on what's been in wow. The combat systems are very different and they have even said a skilled player can see them in stealth.


    They are not going to give you hand outs in this game. You are going to have to learn the game and deal with thing you are not good at yet.
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  7. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    im all for some counter gameplay with the stealth mechanic. personally i think any game with the stealth mechanic is making a mistake but whatever.
  8. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am curious why you think so? Stealth classes are very beatable, it's that most of the time people would rather complain about it then learn how to over come it.
  9. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    i know they are beatable but usually it is only certain classes that have a better chance vs them. i knew how to beat them but a decent amount of the time even though i played near perfect they won cause they had the first shot and i couldnt recover due to the sheer amount of damage from their stealth based openers.
    taking even a 4th of someones life in 1 hit is just idiotic.
    stealth in its core is cheap . being able to gain a life advantage from not being able to be seen at all ensures you get the fight at your advantage whenever you choose to and if you are losing ? bam stealth away and wait for someone to engage mobs and gank them at your own chosen time.
    whatever though . even though it IS beatable, it is cheap and the stealth class always has the first hit and life advantage from the start.
    luckily carbine is balancing it well and will kill some if not all of my concerns.
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  10. FelixAkuma

    FelixAkuma Cupcake-About-Town

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    Already been said but yeh going to point it out~ Detection! They clearly stated that Mobs and players can see the characters outline/stealth cloak like predator depending on how closer the person is from 15 metres and under.. and depending on line of site, add that with the environmental grass effects i honestly don't think they need any other counter measures.. It's going to take stalkers skill to sneak up on people i believe even with permanent invisiblity + every class has AOE attacks so if you get a glimpse you can start spamming :p
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  11. Arkana

    Arkana New Cupcake

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    An advice if you think any stalker is near: stay close to any wall and wait there using AoE. If you do so he wont be able to use any backside attack and probably he wont be able to start the fight as he want...
  12. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    That would work if the stalker has no balls lol. I would still run in and attack you:)

    Stalker is more about getting your opener off. A truly skilled assassin class can fight you with out their opener.
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  13. Alistair Cain

    Alistair Cain Cupcake

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    Ideas for balancing and/or counters to stealth in MMOs can benefit by looking at other genres (like RTS or shooters). Some form of counter is needed, otherwise things cannot be balanced (even de-stealthing upon attacking is a form of class balance).

    StarCraft has units with stealth, which can be countered by units that are detectors and reveal them (it is notable that stealthed units can attack freely without uncloaking, so a "hard" counter like detecting units is needed).

    Shooters like the AvP series and Planetside 2 have cloaking that can be spotted as a vague outline, which adds to the gameplay (stealthed character need to judge when to move or stay still, as they are easier to spot while moving).

    A limited timer on stealth is also a decent balancing factor, as the cloaker must judge when to use it and where they will de-cloak - being able to stealth permanently is a massive advantage.
  14. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    Exactly.

    This isn't like WoW's rogue where you're in no danger of being hit by single-target attacks and your opponent is highly likely to just stand in one place while fighting a mob.

    Your target is not only going to be throwing AoE attacks everywhere but they'll also be dodging around the place like crazy, making it extremely hard for a stalker to get an open shot at someone's back.
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  15. Shoogli

    Shoogli Cupcake-About-Town

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    The difference between WS and WOW is that you don't have to target.
    So it's more like stealth in GW2 where if you do dmg in the direction of the thief it will hit him whether in stealth or not.
    For example in GW2 there are beasts called "skelk" I think and if I shoot them from afar, and thus aggro them, they'll stealth and come right to me but if I go on shooting then they'll die without even reaching me...

    Also in WS, unless I'm mistaken, the telegraphs are not stealthed.
  16. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    What people seem to forget is how WS is already balancing this out to some extent.

    Then you may ask ''what do they do then?''s
    If we take a look at the current info we have of all 4 classes.
    Each class has a spammable ability (almsot an autoattack-sort of thing).
    However have you seen the telegraphs of those?
    Esper + spellslinger = pretty big telegraph
    Warrior + stalker = pretty small telegraph (in comparison)

    Now who has the least amount of amour of those classes?
    Right! The ones with the bigger telegraph.

    The warrior and stalker are more resistant to damage, and thus the spellslinger and esper instead have a bigger telegraph to hit those stealthed <REDACTED>s!

    People don't need to forget this when talking about stealth.
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  17. Iskiab

    Iskiab Cupcake

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    I don't understand how people complain about stealth. It's a part of MMOs and I've never played an MMO without it yet.

    Stealth classes usually start of strong and end up being nerfed over time. In most games they aren't much to be concerned about if you're halfway decent.
  18. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    Thats the main issue though. Most players do not want to take the time to actually get halfway decent. So they complain about how broken X class is because they cant simply walk up to it and 1 shot it.

    Why do you think the Death Knight was stupidly OP for a long time in wrath? It made all the terrible players happy. Still in greens and blues and have no idea how to play? Great your still doing 20k DPS! Whats that? Your a pally? Here have 45 buttons that stun your foe or make you immune to damage while being able to crt them for 10k.


    Mean while the rouge and hunter players got screwed over because they where the classes that took the most skill to play in PvP and got nerfed to high hell. IDK about cata or MOP, never played high enough to see the end game for those 2.

    So it stands that WS will have to overcome this and possibly be one of the first to actually let the stalkers do what they are meant to do. Be a fracking pvp class and ignore all the morons who have zero skill at the game but think they are allowed to complain because they are deserving of it some how.
  19. Flawz

    Flawz Cupcake-About-Town

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    Just wandering if you are someone who gets ganked a lot by stealthers?

    This post seems that you are hoping so much that a Stealth Class in a game cant stealth very much or get back into stealth easily, (this is not a shooting game) It's an MMORPG where being a stealth class is exactly that ( A STEALTH CLASS )

    And watch the video's... Stealth IS permanent... there IS Emergancy stealth (vanish) so you'll have to get over that... but here are some examples of this Counter Play you want to know of...

    1. First off, the closer they get to you, the more distorted and visible they are..
    2. Environment gives away their position..
    3. Every class has shields to help obsorb any opening attack they can use on you..
    4. Every class has Dodge, if you get hit from first attack (which any class can get first attack off, its just easier for stealthers, part of stealth perks) you can dodge the next one and set up for your counter.
    5. Break Out Gameplay, allows for you to break out of any, lets say opening stunlock attempt?
    6. Every Class can primary or 2ndary a Tank or Healer, So if your on a PvP server and are doing missions it would be wise to keep some sort of OH Snap! ability, like a heal or damage obsorb in your toolset. I doubt you'll need all 8 or so ability slots to fight off NPCs while questing.

    and most important... Don't try to get a stealth class nerfed for their main purpose of being what they are... it's like limiting a casters ranged attacks to 5 feet.

    Don't Hate on stealth classes bro, just click on "rez here" and get ganked again for hoping to gimp Stalkers.
  20. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    Some people before have suggested increasing "Perception" to help spot stealthed characters father away, but that just starts a perception/stealth arms race and, pretty soon, that's all pvp is.

    Flawz pointed out things really well.

    The environment is your friend. Look for footsteps. Stand in tall grass. Stand in a puddle of water. When you get close the hazy motion becomes more apparent.

    During the Esper Video, after that did the dungeon, two exile stalkers attacked them. You could still see the exile's telegraphs so you have a moment of forewarning.

    Also remember your own attacks do not have to be targeted. If you suspect a stalker is near, swing your weapons wildly around you! Point-blink AoEs are your friend! That Esper ability that spun blades 360 degrees around you for 20 feet? That's anti-stalker and you can move while you cast it, coating a large area of potential damage either forcing the stalker to be hit or use up their dodges.

    What should worry you is two stalkers working together. One attacking first to get your attention who then tethers you. Then the second stalker comes up while the first vanishes to recover. Of course, that's easier if you have a friend of your own to work together with! Like in the video, the two stalkers worked together against an Esper and a warrior. It was close, but the esper and the warrior came out on top.

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