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Biggest Concern about the Stalker.

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Baamz, Nov 27, 2013.

  1. Iskiab

    Iskiab Cupcake

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    Well most people are by definition average. I've yet to see a game yet where a stealth class hasn't been nerfed within a year into the game.

    Problem is for a stealth class to not suck 1v1 they need to be just as strong as everyone else. Then if you get 2 stealthies on one target (like a healer) they'll frontload and take them out in no-time causing QQ. Then plate wearers always complain (usually because they want to be the big tough guy in an MMO to compensate for something in real life) because they think they should be able to take anyone 1v1. Stealthies are always the class most complained about because unless you're really bad you can be really effective just by using strategy, like frontloading damage and assisting with another stealthy friend on a healer. Hopefully stalkers aren't too frontloaded from stealth or it'll be tons of QQ.... the devs are listening afterall.

    Even then, to see people say 'stealth shouldn't be in MMOs' is hilarious at this point. What MMO doesn't have stealth so where are these people coming from?
    selodaoc and Ciridemarr like this.
  2. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    FF14 has no stealth class. Only one that's worth playing that I can think of.
  3. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    Stealth people are disliked for two reasons I think. First, they get to pick when to start the fight. The second, the danger they have of either stun locking someone, or instantly squishing them with the front loaded damage. Breakout gameplay manages one, shields and heals can manage the other. A big warrior has more shields to get through, but a healer has stronger and more frequent heals to bounce back.

    If it takes two stalkers to take down one healer, then that's a pretty good balance. Two stalkers working together will always have more success. Actually, two of anything working together will have better success. Personally, I think that if two Esper (in hybrid roles with both attacks and heals for each other) were working together against two stalkers working together? The Espers would win. More AoEs (which don't have to have a target to be used in Wildstar) to counter the stealth in combat. More heals and support to keep the other person on their feet.

    The first character I make on Wildstar will be a stalker. Just so I can wander around where I want and take close up screenshots of creatures without them seeing me and stepping on me. My main character will be an Esper. As an Esper, I know that if I team with a Stalker, I'm essentially going to be there as bait in pvp.
  4. Dirty Outlaw

    Dirty Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hopefully this thread is more constructive than the other one....

    Stealth classes in general need to have a couple weaknesses in order to be countered. tbc wow did this with the counter classes idea. well heavy armor types that could take the burst would more often win against rogues since their defense is low (hell cloth classes like locks could have more base armor by ability buffs alone if it wasn't for agi giving armor at the time) while a rogue caught off guard by a cloth range dps could win better since it was harder to get back on target from range.

    WS is far more aoe friendly so it would be easier to hit one.

    Stalkers wear lighter armor so it will be faster to kill one than say a warrior.

    I think rogues need to be quick and have lower defensive stats kill light armor glass cannons but have a hard time against heavy armor targets.

    1 on 1 balance is extremely hard to pull off regardless of stealth glasses but in group play mmos can shine.

    I also think because of LAS
    you can create build that will have your own strengths and weaknesses

    I doubt you can have it all, roll high defense like a tank and your dmg output is too low.

    Focus on high burst and dps you may not have enough cc in single 1 on 1 combat against some who does.

    try to do cc build or a mix and you may win against some but may lack enough oomph to win against other classes.

    I think people forget about LAS and how it will affect the game.

    Most games you have a large amount of abilities and cds at disposal but wildstar is limiting that to only a set amount. And I also think it would be easier to balance that way as well.

    But time will tell
  5. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    Stalkers now wear medium armor. I think the option to upgrade to heavy was removed since summer beta? Anyway, it's been a predictable trait that heavy armor increases damage resistance for the class while lowering damage output. I wonder how 'middle of the road' medium armor will be. Light armor classes like the spellslinger and esper will have a higher damage ceiling.

    Idea of resistance aside, some videos have stated that if you're a stalker you should "Learn to dodge!". So, I also wonder now if there are traits among the Stalker class that also increase the dodge bar such as how frequently you are able to dodge when compared with other classes. One could say that the default is that all classes can dodge two times in 5 seconds before depleting their dodge bar. Yet the stalker can dodge three.

    So a way of making a Stalker Dodge Tank might lie in LAS Abilities that give you a bonus to dodge bar regeneration after a certain tier threshold is reached. One like using the Ability Medical Nanites to regenerate your health also refills your dodge bar at Tier 4.
  6. Scarzi

    Scarzi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I actually thought the opposite. Everything is AoE free target, grass moves and its easier to see stealth the closer they get. To me, where is a stalkers help to keep stealthed with only one CD to go back into stealth.
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  7. filanwizard

    filanwizard Cupcake-About-Town

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    Stealth has always been a very OP thing in MMOs, It only really game to fruition in WoW because it pushed PVP to a much greater extent than the previous big dog that was Everquest.

    Wildstar is interesting in that it applies the shimmer, but also depending on how bouncy a target is a stalker could find themselves in the line of fire... Or in the case of a spellslinger, a really nasty surprise if right as they want to attack the slinger does position flip with the NPC... That could be ugly.

    Good thing MMORPGs do not have friendly fire like MMOFPS do... Anybody who has played Planetside will know about friendly fire and stealth all too well. Stealth suit players going through a door under heavy suppression from plasma grenades never worked too well...
  8. Baamz

    Baamz New Cupcake

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    I apologize if this is how I came off! I have no intention of making a stealth class inherently weak, and I don't have an issue with being ganked by stealth classes.

    The biggest motivation for this post was the frustration i've experienced in PvP facing thieves. I was a highly competitive GW2 player (top 50 in the NA leaderboards when they first came out) and 1 of the more frustrating parts of the game were thieves.

    Thieves were balanced at the time in such a way where if the thief didn't make a mistake, he could teleport/stealth EVERYWHERE and there was nearly NOTHING you could do about it. Assuming the thief was as competent as you were, they could come out ahead in an engagement.

    I love a good stealth class, but I don't love a stealth class where the stealth player is the one making all the decisions, with you only being able to react as best you can. Not fun.

    Based off of all the things people have said, THIS WON'T BE AN ISSUE IN WILDSTAR. I also hadn't yet read the Stalker AMA and was unaware of all the counter mechanics they talked about in there when I made this post. Needless to say, I am no longer worried.
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  9. Gamerz

    Gamerz Cupcake

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    Sorry had to comment on this.

    Why do you stealth fans always come up with the most ridiculous examples to prove your point.

    Its all 2v1 or epics vs greens or high skill players vs low skill players- always. People dont QQ when they get 2 v1 to get a class nerfed.

    So lets clarify

    1. Do you feel only people with high skill play stealth classes.

    2. Do you think the developers go to the forums and see a post that says "man I got 2v1 by some "stealth" class. Man they are OP you should nerf them. And the developers go ohh whoa that "stealth" class shouldn't be able to 2v1 a class lets nerf them.

    3. If the non stealth classes are lying and complaining about a 2v1 loss but on the forum they say it was 1v1. How would you know that in each case. Feel free to send me a PM if you can do this I have lots of money to buy lottery tickets but I need you to get the numbers.

    4. If in every mmo I can think of the rogues have started out OP then been nerfed don't you think you are on the wrong side of the reasoning.
  10. Iskiab

    Iskiab Cupcake

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    What makes you think I usually play stealth classes? In fact I almost never do, I usually play healers.

    After a while you've played all the classes and you see trends emerge. No matter what class you play it's easy to spot dumb comments on the internet.

    Here's dumb stuff I always see people post:

    1. Melee class X is OP: Why is the melee class OP? Because the person nerd rages and doesn't check their combat logs. They'll tunnel and only notice the melee in their face and not the ranged behind pew pewing which is why they usually get killed... and it's almost always the melee who gets credit in the person's eyes no matter how many ranged are standing at the back freecasting.

    2. Stealth is OP: If the class is built around being front loaded and you have a stealth group then maybe yea, being stun locked from 100% to dead isn't fun. Otherwise not really, in fact I've seen stealth classes be weaker then other classes more often then not.

    3. I should be able to take a stealth class out 1v1 because I wear plate: Sure, lets make a class all about burst out of stealth and then useless afterwards.

    In pvp the player makes more of a difference then the class. Usually most players biggest problem is between the monitor and seat, but instead of trying to improve they run to the forums to cry. I've seen people from the weakest classes in game be very effective because the player was good. WoW's a bad example because you can roll your face across the keyboard and still do decent damage, but in general skill is more important then class.
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  11. filanwizard

    filanwizard Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am interested to see how telegraphs impact the gear gap when talking equal levels. Gear will have to make a difference but the ability for people to dodge devastating attacks changes things a bit. No longer is it pure stats that means the difference between dead on alpha strike and surviving to pop a heal and own them because now a player who is aware of their surroundings will avoid attacks.

    *I borrowed the term Alpha Strike from EVE-Online, no clue if other MMORPGs have a different meaning for the same thing. Alpha Strike is your opening salvo, A good one can take out a single enemy almost instantly.
  12. Gamerz

    Gamerz Cupcake

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    Iskiab,

    Thanks for your reply. While I do not think you addressed the questions at all not even 4. I am interested in your reasoning which raises new points.

    1. Again I see you looking into the mind of another player and reasoning for them. How is it you know they only focus on the melee player and not the ranged player. You could also reason that stealth classes are generally played at the peripheral or take down stragglers which puts them far more often in a highly obvious 1v1 situation. They generally aren't built to get into the front line of a brawl which you outlined.

    3. I feel you are mirroring another long standing "stealth" class reasoning. Let me explain.

    A lot of times I hear the paper scissor rock coming from stealth class players. Taking that further I see stealth class players reason they should take down low mitigation glass cannon classes. If they are the scissor to the paper (caster) then shouldn't the rock ( warrior) be able to take them down. Let me go further an give you an example of this from my helpful friend Dirty Outlaw

    Note where he says "kill" the glass cannon but "have a hard time" with the heavy armor. Now "have a hard time" can mean many things but in this case it is easily read is have somewhat of a challenge but still take them down.

    Furthermore you say all people do is run to the forums and cry about the rogues and don't try to learn.This is the most classic of all the stealth classes comeback. Its the LRN2Play. If you don't play them its best not to fall back on that cherub, but you may not have known.

    So you must feel that the developers and the players in all those games are all stupid and the developers gullible fools.

    The players cry for nerfs because they can not play. And the developers only read a small number of useless scrub players comments and with a broad brushstroke nerf the class.

    Interesting.
  13. Wildebeest

    Wildebeest Cupcake

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    They have pointed out that bushes, grass, and "other environmental things" (we can assume at least water) will move as a stealthed stalker passes through them. In addition, when a stalker is 15 meters away, they are entirely invisible, with the aforementioned environmental effects being the exception.

    Once they reach 15 meters from you, you will begin doing perception checks based on level, distance, LoS (extremely high detection rate directly in front of character and lowering as it radiates out until reaching the 180 degree line at which point they are essentially invisible until they are on top of you), and well... luck. If a perception check hits, the stalkers nano cloaking begins to break up like the blur of a Predator's armor in those movies. The more perception checks that hit, the more broken up it will be. When you see the stalker's blurry outline they will be untarget-able and unhighlight-able; they will however, be strikable with an ability which utilizes telegraphs (AoE). Upon taking damage, the stealth will be broken.

    Once in combat the stalker will have the ability to use "emergency stealth" which is essentially vanish from WoW with a few caveats. The ability does not clear dots from the stalker like in WoW, leaving them to do damage. The stealth is not broken via damage during this emergency stealth, but it does not last long, i believe 6-8 sec (don't quote me on that, but I know it's short) with a relatively long cooldown and no quick refresh like readiness. The stealth is broken regardless of howl ong it has been active if the stalker uses an attack. If the stalker sits the whole duration, stealth will fade instead of the WoW-esque return to out of combat stealth.

    TLDR: Stealth permanent outside combat
    Visibly interacts with environment
    Fades from 15meters and closer with relation to position / level / luck
    Emergency Stealth is simply used for re-positioning oneself in combat for a nuke
    All in all, feels like a very well balanced stealth mechanism imo
  14. Wildebeest

    Wildebeest Cupcake

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    Someone's been watching Battlestar Galactica.
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  15. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's one of my favorite series:)




    In terms of all the posts:


    A lot of people do just run to the forums and complain. I've been a QA for 7 MMOs now and trust me it's a thing. I would say about 80% of the posts are just pure rage or players have no idea what they are doing.

    For some reason people have this thought process that if they can't beat it, then clearly it's over powered. Which of course is silly. If other classes are given tool to help them deal with front load classes then it comes down to skill. Most mmos have learned from wow and have just that.

    I feel that most player that complain about a stealth class most likely still never learned how to deal with them and are now outraged that this mmo is having a stealth class. Saying or thinking it's going to be OP before you even get to play it? That tell me your going to be one if the forum rangers that doesn't want to take the time to learn.
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  16. Dirty Outlaw

    Dirty Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    k how about light armor class should have a hard time vs medium armor classes and a easy time with heavy armor classes stop trying to make something out of nothing.
    You know what I meant medium armor classes have a easier time with light armor and a hard time with heavy armor. You just want to pick at my words for your argument.
  17. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    Once again...

    Rogues in WoW: Have to get behind players who stand still in fights, face the same direction and cast single-targets spells that won't break their stealth.

    Stalkers in W*: Have to get behind players who jump all over the place like crazed monkeys while firing off all kinds of AoEs that can potentially reveal them, not to MENTION the AoEs from the mobs the enemy player is fighting that could also reveal the stalker.

    You be the judge which one is harder.
  18. Iskiab

    Iskiab Cupcake

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    I don't believe in the rock paper scissors analogy. It should be skill > class at all times. The better player should win every time.

    The reason why I try to look into the thoughts of other players is because I don't understand their reasoning. Usually what they say makes no sense, so I'll talk to them to try to figure out what's going on.

    I don't think devs are gullible, but I think they give into forum QQ. I've seen well thought out class balance with checks and balances thrown out the window with nerfs that make 0 sense and impact more then just what they were trying to fix. In other words dumb changes - my guess is the class dev was trying to tweak and the class manager (their boss) came in and made an arbitrary dumb change for 'balance'.

    Some people just have no idea what balance is though - I see people complain healers are too powerful all the time too (another thing that drives me nuts). In essence there are certain things that make MMO pvp work and here are the basic requirements in my eyes:
    - a healer should be able to keep themselves alive against one dps indefinitely
    - CC is required in MMOs, otherwise I'd rather play an FPS, cc is what makes MMO pvp interesting
    - a melee should be able to kill a ranged dps if they close with them (not plate vs light, melee vs ranged)
    - armor should have no effect on who wins a 1v1
    - no one should be able to be stun-locked from 100% health to 0% health

    Then a nice to have would be to get rid of the rock-scissors-paper thing. It came from wow so people who're really bad at pvp could at least beat some people sometimes. Skill should always be more important then class, no one should win a fight at the character creation screen.
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  19. Ysme

    Ysme Cupcake

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    Like most "class concern" threads, This could be repeated for any one of the classes so far presented as they all have unique play mechanics that might seem to make them unbeatable in the hands of a skilled player. When played well against not so skilled or experienced players they will no doubt be called out as OP and unbalanced.

    That is how it should be. You lose to the player (s) not the class

    I only hope the dev's stick to their guns and trust their instinct in balancing out skill sets and class mechanics.
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  20. Tidezen

    Tidezen Cupcake

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    The only time stealthers are really a problem is in single-player World PvP. That's the only place they have a huge advantage. In "formal" PvP, you know there's gonna be a rogue or two slinking around at any given time, so you can account for that.

    I've never understood why people worry so much about stealth classes on a PvP server. The answer is: don't play on a PvP server if you don't like getting ganked. Don't muck up PvE balance for the rest of us.

    That's my only real concern with Stalkers, is that because they have stealth, there's a real chance of them being nerfed into the ground PvE-wise due to people's PvP issues.
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