1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Circuit Board Crafting: Random Chips Discussion

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 11, 2013.

  1. CRB_Gortok

    CRB_Gortok Carbine Econ Designer

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,165
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Aliso Viejo, California
    There is none of this. I don't know where this keeps coming from. If someone read a quarter of what I have written and then started making wild assumptions and posting about them, then someone else took that is gospel, then maybe this is where this came from.

    There is gear of varying degree of optimization. You don't need perfect gear to advance out of a tier. The gear from the next tier is going to be better anyway.
    Sonntam, Kataryna, Dwel and 7 others like this.
  2. Silas Jasar

    Silas Jasar Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I personally like the optomization being more about how you play then how everyone SHOULD play.
    Cottonspore likes this.
  3. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,090
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The problem comes in at max level. If content is not tuned to a level where max is taken into account then it becomes all too easy to just overgear it. Wotlk saw this pretty clearly with how buffs and the additional teirs of gear were handled. If you do tune to the higher end of that scale then to make up levels of skill you will need to grind to get that level as you will not have playerskill to make up the gap. Random loot is a bit of a double edged sword in that way.
  4. CRB_Gortok

    CRB_Gortok Carbine Econ Designer

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,165
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Aliso Viejo, California
    I would prefer this as well. There is going to be a "best DPS rotation" for each class, I am sure. But that does not mean it is going to be the most effective for most players anyway. The best rotation really comes down to what you can comfortably maintain when the [REDACTED] hits the fan, and that is going to be different for every person.
  5. Dualist

    Dualist Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Likes Received:
    161
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    There
    From what little I understand of chips, this seems to be what I gathered. I kind of took it as the system is designed so that players can tweak it to suit optimization of their individual playstyles rather than a universal optimization across the board. However, my concern is that since there are advancing tiers, eventually will there not be a final tier which can be optimized to a, well, optimum level? My concern is that the final tiers of optimization for efficiency become somewhat obvious leading everyone to put themselves back on the gear treadmill and as a result negating experimentation and placing everyone in a sort of final tier gear rut.


    PS : Any chance you could get a dev to jump in on the Flying Mounts thread? Things are getting out of hand over there. :cautious:
  6. Jarinolde

    Jarinolde Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    US
    The milestone system, from what I've read, serves to fulfill this aspect. An example (pulled from CBT 2 notes) is if your playing an Esper in PvP, you'd probably like to get enough Tech to reach rank 2, for both the thorns like DoT passive, and the snare from when your shield breaks. While as a healer (in PvP or PvE) You might want to go all the way to rank 3 Tech, for the ability to restore shields from your heals.

    So the milestone ranks you'd be most interested in getting, are essentially the "breakpoints" like you'd see in other games. Except here, the breakpoints offer an actual benefit for reaching, rather than just being the point where getting more of that stat is not worth it.
    Rumze and Haversham like this.
  7. Cottonspore

    Cottonspore Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Likes Received:
    173
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I have nothing useful to add except to say I am pretty hyped for the CBC system. : )
    Psistorm likes this.
  8. Haversham

    Haversham Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    161
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Nah, no need. We're a fansite, not anything officially operated by carbine. Yak's got his hands full for sure, but that's what he gets paid the big bucks for.

    Also, JGaff essentially has said they, the devs, want to see how the community feels so they're going to let us hash it out on our own. Not that we'll come to a definite conclusion, just that they would like to see if anything new rises to the top of these flying mount discussions that are fermenting across the wildstar fan websites. Like we always hear (and see from this thread, thanks Gortok), the devs are listening. If a Dev were to weigh in at this point it would influence the discussion and introduce bias; it would run counter to their desired goal!
    Rumze likes this.
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gortok, is there any news on how weapons are going to be implemented in this system? You mentioned it being difficult basically because you have to give at least 12 weapons per tier.

    I personally think it would be a good spot to implement crafters, that you then have to go find chips for the weapons to make them anywhere near worthwhile, and possibly power chips or some of the weapon's components only drop off of the end boss. The better the crafter, the better the weapon's potential becomes, or have it so the crafter can customize the weapon, such as shooting green fire, or changing a high rate of fire with low damage per hit to a low rate of fire with high damage per hit.
  10. MMOPapa

    MMOPapa Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Likes Received:
    249
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    United States
    I've read your article, 'Econ DevBlog: Circuit Board Crafting', and personally? I see great potential in the choices that the Economy Team has made. However there are a few concerns that I'd like to address... for example, would it be at all possible for you to elaborate more on the requirements of some of the actions mentioned in your article or are they all capable of being performed by any player with no prerequisite? If so... could you perhaps divulge some information on the advantages of having a trade skill when performing the modding process or is it to be assumed that the possession of trade skills will have no correlation with the modding process once the item has been created?

    Also I was wondering if you were accepting questions beyond the subject of 'Circuit Board Crafting'? Perhaps involving what choice methods of bartering can players expect to be implemented in accordance to housing? For example, Star Wars Galaxies allowed the implementation of personally owned vendors to be placed in housing for the sole purpose of selling items to visitors while also cataloging both their inventory and their locations into both Bazaar Terminal searches as well as their physical locations on the World Map. The end result was a promotion of social interaction between players and these player-owned shops; creating an immersing perspective of being a valuable asset to the game's economy.
  11. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I'd actually prefer crafting to be absolutely necessary, in some aspect, in the "elder game" stage.
    Psistorm and Haversham like this.
  12. Haversham

    Haversham Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    161
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I agree. Crafting, if its implemented in a fashion that makes it compelling to end game, has the ability to make other aspects of the game shine while still being fun in it's own right.

    There is an auction house, probably at a central location/city. I don't believe we'll be seeing anything like what was in UO or SWTOR where people visit houses and buy things due to this. That doesn't mean you can't get an uplink to Nexus' AH through your house though(potentially).
    Rumze likes this.
  13. MMOPapa

    MMOPapa Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Likes Received:
    249
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    United States
    I was leaning more towards the divulgence of new information in regards to either what currently implemented features this phase of beta yields or what prospective inclusion the future may yield from the original poster (CRB_Gortok), rather than the reiteration of previously released knowledge; though I praise you for attempting to assist in the matter. :laugh:
  14. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    I agree, though it should be something that isn't required to do by raiders - so that crafters can really contribute by doing the hard work in crafting and gathering materials from all over the world, then selling their work to those that need it.
  15. Nub

    Nub Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I've read the original document and what's been covered here enough that I think I understand it pretty well now. I haven't seen the CBC system in game, so I fully expect my understanding to have some gaps. Please help fill those in.

    I'm still trying to approach this from an accessibility standpoint, not as a critical analysis of the merits of the CBC system or related item/stat systems, as I'm not sure I fully understand everything yet.

    Here's my take on the CBC system and how it compares to WoW's gem system:

    Things to consider when gemming gear in WoW

    1. Color (Gems have colors that map to stat properties)
    Pros:
    Color metaphor makes it very easy to understand hybrid gems​
    An Intellect Gem is red, a Stamina gem is blue.​
    An Intellect/Stamina gem is purple (red+blue).​
    Cons:
    Arbitrary mapping of stats to colors​
    DPS/Healing/Defensive stats spread around all colors.​
    Requires a chart/external knowledge to know.​
    Blue gems are annoying for DPS​
    The only blue offensive stat is "hit rating".​
    If a DPS doesn't need hit rating, there's no desirable gem for a blue slot.​

    2. Quality (Gems have multiple qualities per expansion)
    Pros:
    Progression​
    Uncommon, Rare, Epic gems increase the value of each socket as higher quality gems become available.​
    Cons:
    Gets confusing after multiple expansions​
    Each gem of each quality and each color has a different name each expansion.​
    Good luck remembering everything.​

    3. Socket bonuses (Match color of all sockets in an item and gain a stat bonus)
    Pros:
    Feels like an easy bonus​
    At a glance it feels like free stats for doing something very easy.​
    Can be ignored and gems still are useful​
    A player can randomly throw gems in with stats they want and benefit from the gems.​

    Cons:
    It's usually a no brainer​
    Gems are effectively infinite, so there's no reason to ever use a sub-optimal gem.​
    Match the colors, get a bonus. Nearly always the correct choice.​

    Hard to quantify value of a socket bonus​
    An optimal socket bonus may be worth using sub-optimal gems.​
    Covers many, but not all situations.​
    A sub-optimal socket bonus may be worth ignoring and using optimal gems.​
    Rare case, most recently a thing for healers and Spirit.​
    Both possibilities aren't intuitive and require theorycrafting.​

    4. Gem type (Normal gem, meta gem, jewelcrafter's gem, or legendary quest gem)
    Pros:
    Allows for some highly unique or powerful gems​
    Due to the heavily restricted nature of the gems, unique functionality or significant player power can be tied to these.​
    Cons:
    It's almost always a no brainer​
    With a few exceptions in PvP or for tanks, each of these unique gems don't offer much choice. Plug it in and forget about it.​
    Not elegant​
    Arbitrary exceptions aren't easily understood by new players.​
    Slippery slope. One exception leads to two, two leads to three...​

    Since gem sockets are a part of the item budget, the system isn't really a bonus. If you have sockets, you need to fill them, or you will be less powerful than if the item didn't have any sockets at all. This might sound like a subtle difference, but this is what makes WoW's enchantment system different from gems. One is an improvement over the baseline (enchants), the other allows customization without a significant player power increase (gems).

    Additionally, there aren't many significant choices offered to the player making choice an illusion for most players. Yes, you can put a tanking meta gem in your helmet as a healer, but that would be stupid.

    Overall, this system is pretty easy to understand, but has a major design trap (socket bonuses) that many players don't even realize is a problem. It doesn't significantly alter player power so it ends up being busy work, more or less, required for raiders as nearly every item has a socket, but not significantly modifying player power in any meaningful way.

    Things to consider when using the CBC system (and my interpretation of design intent)

    1. Chip/circuit type (Chips can only go into circuits of the corresponding type)
    Design:
    Force players to consider a variety of chips.​
    Allow for unique functionality (like Ability Chips) that will be a headache to design around if stacked.​

    2. Chip quality (Higher level chips have higher stats)
    Design:
    Allow for more significant progression from low to high level.​

    3. Chip variation (Each chip has a range of potential stats)
    Design:
    Motivate players to repeat content by giving items a random variance.​

    4. Fused circuits (Some chips can't be changed)
    Design:
    Deter cookie-cutter circuit builds across all items.​

    5. Power Source (Influences the strength of all other chips in circuit)
    Design:
    Scaling bonus to all circuit stats acts as a straight-forward "upgrade" path.​
    Not sure I fully grasp this one.

    6. Terminating/non-terminating (Different effects/magnitude depending on board layout)
    Design:
    Deter cookie-cutter circuit builds across all items.​
    Not sure I fully grasp this one.

    7. To be announced stuff (Set bonuses, item challenges, ability chips)
    Design (guesses):
    Set bonuses - some kind of synergy bonus with other chips/circuits​
    Item challenges - self upgrading chips based on player action/progress​
    Ability chips - some unique bonus that isn't a straight-up stat increase​

    This seems like significantly more to consider than the Gemming system of WoW.

    I see this additional complexity as giving the player far more control over their items than they do in WoW, but freedom can be very intimidating to some, especially without clear direction. Additionally, freedom by itself doesn't necessarily ensure a variety of interesting choices, which could result in additional complexity with no significant gameplay improvement.

    In short, I see some really awesome stuff in the system, but until I know how the other related systems interact with the CBC, I can't tell if it'd be fun to play with or needless complexity.
  16. CRB_Gortok

    CRB_Gortok Carbine Econ Designer

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,165
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Aliso Viejo, California
    Sure but we also want all crafting to be on relatively equal footing. There will be items that can only be created by crafters, and we are trying to make sure it is entwined in progression in a reasonable manner. PChan just finished his first draft of the Elder Game Crafting Document today.

    We felt that the system was too fundamental to require you to be a crafter to utilize it. There are plans for crafted mod kits and chips that can only come from crafting, but we felt that requiring players to get a crafter every time they wanted to mod a chip would severely limit the way the system was used.

    These advantages would primarily be convenience and monetary, if any. For example, being able to mod anywhere maybe, or not having to use a mod kit.

    I am not ready to comment on how trades are going to play out yet. As far as I know we haven't revealed anything. Someone can correct me if I missed it :)

    To clarify the quote above, we do not want each player to have to craft to be optimal. Crafting is absolutely necessary for the Elder Game, just not everyone has to do it. This will make crafting more satisfying because only the people who enjoy it will be competing against each other in the market.

    Nub - your post was too long for me to read right now, as I was just checking in before I head to bed. I promise to read it tomorrow, though.
    Sonntam, BonusStage, moneda and 2 others like this.
  17. MMOPapa

    MMOPapa Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Likes Received:
    249
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    United States
    Uh... yeah that information has already been divulged and is common knowledge... but uh... for the people who might've missed that uh... interview... could you repeat that information? :D
    [For the sake of people who don't get my sense of humor, yes I am joking.]​

    But in all seriousness, you could not imagine my level of gratitude towards you for taking the time to reply to our questions. Much respect, thank you very much. :notworthy:
  18. XPhiler

    XPhiler Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    18

    This has to be a psychological thing in my opinion. Certain people feel like this is some sort of 2 state machine in that there is BiS and Bad with nothing else in the middle. I've this in games that were not gear centric at all. Even though there was no need to have BiS to play every piece of content. Or the tier before that, or even the tier before that, people still felt at a disadvantage without said gear.

    But back on subject. I don't know what can be done to remove this particular type of fear. Part of it is perhaps a sort of murphy's law kind of believe That is, hard to acquire really means you'll never have it while everyone else will get it on the first try kind of believe thus people will feel they'll be at a disadvantage and fail to understand that the same "disadvantage" applies to everyone else more or less equally. Perhaps there is an underlying logic to it too. Could it be that perhaps players will feel they'll need to change their build and play style to make best use of the gear at hand with such a system? In games where gear has fix stats you can immediately tell if something is useful for you or not. If it is you use it, if not you don't. Here there is a bit of a gray area since a drop could be partially useful for me but not exactly the stats I was hoping for. So now I have 3 options. Wear it and ignore the part that doesnt apply to me. Wear it and switch my play style to take advantage of that part that would otherwise not be useful for me. Sell it / harvest it.

    This is in fact a good question that might shine some light on the issue. How do you see players utilizing this high level of customization. What I mean is lets assume All my stats are equal and I have no mod chips to plug in and I get a drop that gives a bonus to critical strike. Do you expect people to change their build to take advantage of that or to keep their current build (lets say for the sake of argument a build centered around DOT) and then simply fix it with other gear drops / mod chips over time? Also if you could perhaps share with us, If this is not something you're free to talk about I fully understand but my question here is how much is the combat system adaptive to these variations? I mean are skills very specialized in that a single build can mostly just take advantage of essentially single attribute (say critical strike) or more generic in that some skills benefit from bonuses to critical strike while other skills on the same build take advantage of DOT bonuses etc.. and with that providing a more strategic element and the optimal way you play will depend on the gear bonuses you're getting?
  19. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So, from what I can tell the CBC system is more like enchants, reforging and gemming all rolled into one system. You have the sockets from each schematic like gems which have specific types of chips that can be placed inside of them, such as ability, stat, etc. You have destruction of items to get useful materials out of them, (this is how chips are attained). And you have the ability to take stats from one part of the schematic and change them to other stats in a manner which you find favorable.

    But wait there's more! Yes, the ability to funnel more power into one chip or another to hit thresholds which can be changed. This means if you have two gems with two states (we'll call it on or off for now to make it simple.) You can decide to get the added power from one chip at one moment and another chip another moment. So, you can tailor your gear pretty specifically, even after all the chips are in place. (This also plays closely to reforging.)

    What it comes down to is, 90% of the stats for any given class/role combination will probably be exactly the same, it's the 10% changes off the top that are the ones that matter, as to how you play the class. Especially since every piece of gear can proc this makes it much more interesting, or perhaps players want an active ability instead of a proc, there's that too. So it's also making it so you have a mini-trinket in every slot as well! These procs and abilities could be the answer to making vastly different builds for a player, not simply finding the trinket that works best for your class, but finding the set of procs that help you the most.

    I think the free form combat style mixed with LAS could mean you have specializations within roles within roles. Yes that's literally twice the roles per roles (thanks DevSpeak guy!). You could have a single target DoT dpsers, an AoE DoT dpser, and a burst damage dpser all in one class and all playing perfectly viable builds. Because there's "only" 6 classes in Wildstar, this customization is extremely important. I too wish there was a CBC prototype we could play with to understand it better, and there is a possibility that it boils down to a lot of complexity which is all negated, but I think it can be balanced with the other systems to allow for interesting choices once you're figuring out where to spend your last 5% of stats.
  20. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    104
    Trophy Points:
    43
    One thing I would like to know is will weapons have glows? I always loved the way weapons glowed in wow, the different colors for different enchants, so will there be chips that have glows like that for weapons?

Share This Page