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Circuit Board Crafting: Random Chips Discussion

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 11, 2013.

  1. Nub

    Nub Cupcake

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    This part makes sense to me. All sockets have chips at the time the item is created. Players can use the item as-is and be reasonably effective, or tweak it out for maximum effectiveness.
    This explains things more clearly. I was under the impression that each chip had a potential range of values assigned at item creation. Are there multiple versions of a chip?

    Is there anything in a single item variable outside of initial chip assignment? Does every initial item combination share the same circuit layout, slot types, and initial power?

    This sounds similar to WoW's secondary gem setup, in that players can get multiple stats from one socket, but does each Two-Stat chip have the same budget as a normal chip? Additionally, do all chips have a "required power", or does this only apply to two-stat versions?
    I'm not sure I understand how power/required power functions.

    Does a power amp scale up the effect of each chip, or does it increase the number of potential options for each socket? Or is it both?

    Do chips require a specific power, or is it the socket? Do chips consume the power, giving you less to work with elsewhere on the circuit, or does "required power" act merely as a gate to only allow certain higher-level or power chips be used in "high power" items?
    While I have a few ideas of how this could be implemented, what's the design intent of adjustable power sockets? This, more than the other elements, seems complex for the sake of being complex. Can you offer an example of why this is an important part of the CBC system? I don't understand the gameplay it provides short of just additional control.

    In my experience, no MMO has ever made stat/item systems require highly precise customization, short of arbitrary stat caps like WoW's hit/expertise system. In general, if you're close, you're good. Does Wildstar's stat system require such fine tuning to be effective?
  2. XPhiler

    XPhiler Cupcake

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    The way I understand the system (hope I am not wrong if not someone please correct me) is that an item comes with a specific power balance. This power balance can then be increased with the power amp chip. This power balance is used up by chips going down the line. So lets say an item starts with 500 power and I use a amp chip that gives me an extra 100 power so I have a total of 600 power I can use in my item. I slot in a chip that uses 200 power so then any chips after that chip can only use a maximum of 400 power since 200 has been used up.

    Afaik chips will require a specific amount of power yes.

    Now If I understood correctly you can assign more power to a chip then it requires and this could have additional bonuses. For example in the post where Gortok explains this he uses a chip in his example that gives a bonus to shield recharge rate. The chip itself requires only 50 power to slot in and this gives 10% chance to recharge 196 shield when you use certain abilities. But if you direct 100 power instead of 50 to that same chip instead of 10% chance to recharge 196 shield you get 10% chance to recharge 330 shield. I think the advantage here is if you get an item that has a fix chip that is not useful to you, you can use its energy on a chip that you have control over to get a bigger bonus from that at the expense of the stats thats not useful for you and that you can do nothing about. It also provides flexibility to boost lower level chips if you have a surplus of energy on an item. At the same time each item terminates in an stats socket where the remaining power is essentially converted into extra stats. now lets assume you're a tank and the terminating socket gives a bonus to say strength. You cannot change that since its a fixed socket and as a tank it is likely the shield recharge rate is more important then the damage bonus extra strength will give you so it would be better for you as a tank to use 100 power on the shield recharge chip at the expense of 5 less strength you'll get for reducing 50 power to the terminating stat fixed chip. At the same time another player who lets say decides to play a more solo friendly tank might think his solo tanking capability is good enough as is and would rather get extra DPS then more tanking power so they might decide that on an identical setup it would be better to just use 50 power on the shield and get just 196 shield recharge but on the other hand get the extra 5 points in strength so they can do more damage.

    (source of all this is post #332 in this thread)
  3. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Um dude, you already answered your question,
    at the beginning of your post.
  4. Nub

    Nub Cupcake

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    Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it's significant.

    The most complex element in this design is the ability to adjust the relative power of sockets in the circuit board, which if that level of fidelity offers no significant gameplay, it is unnecessary complexity. Given the already complex nature of this system, and the intent to be used by all skill levels of player, simplification seems in order.

    If a design element offers no significant purpose, why is it here?
  5. MMOPapa

    MMOPapa Cupcake-About-Town

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    Keep in mind, this is a discussion based on perspectives; what you may find simple or easy to understand... others may find complex. This is all based on how each individual looks at it.
  6. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    You are playing the Devils Advocate. It is obvious from your writing that you are not speaking for yourself. I have a firm policy about arguing with a Devil’s Advocate once I recognize one, but I will answer one thing.

    Why is it here?
    Because it looks like it might be a lot of fun.
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  7. XPhiler

    XPhiler Cupcake

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    I think this is a question of user friendly vs power user in a way. The people who actual will find this useful will not find it complex and for the others who dont want the complexity it can be safely ignored. What I mean is this. Adjusting power levels on individual chips will, I am pretty sure, not be required to be effective. No game ever will be balanced towards a perfect build its just unfeasible. Hence people who dont want complexity can just take the default power values and ignore that aspect of the game if they so wish to. The default power values will not put you at a disadvantage. Taking the example in my previous post a person who doesnt bother with adjusting the power levels on the example item given is not going to waste that power. s/he will be getting its worth back in the form of extra strength.

    On the other hand someone who is trying to be the best they can be and like to squeeze out every single point of advantage out of their build and gear can tweak the item in a way to provide more out of what they need rather then more out of what they need less. Thats the difference between a power user and regular user. The regular user doesnt care about being the best of the best, all they care about is to progress and the new item they got is indeed better then the last even though its not optimal and thats good enough for them. For the power user on the other hand they'll not be happy with an item thats better but doesnt have optimal stats. This system allows them to mitigate some of that and at the same time give them a small edge over regular users for their extra effort.

    I think the devs saw exactly what you've seen. That for some this is added complexity that they will not want to care about and thats why it was designed in a way that doesnt offer a significant advantage. On the other hand they know some people arent happy with receiving items that are not perfectly in sync with their build. This system creates a bridge between the two extremes and gives a bit to both types of players.

    like Jeuraud said, the system is implemented because some people like to micromanage and this is content for those kind of people. Not everyone likes or has to like everything. As long as the system doesnt offer a significant advantage I dont think it will cause any problems. People who dont like it can skip it and enjoy what they enjoy. People who like to fiddle have something to enjoy doing. Why should that be a problem?
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  8. MMOPapa

    MMOPapa Cupcake-About-Town

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    If this feature was exclusive to players with trade skills, I could understand how the above statement would be true. However... as Gortok responded to my question earlier; this is not the case. Anyone will be able to modify gear and everyone will be required to modify their own gear. So unfortunately there is no 'skip it' option if you plan on performing at peak efficiency. But as you said... this is a question of user friendly vs power user; nothing more... I don't see it as 'complex' but obviously they do.
  9. XPhiler

    XPhiler Cupcake

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    You're right I agree, if your aim is to perform at peak efficiency then you'll want to engage in this, you cant really skip it. However I will be very surprised if anyone who's after peak efficiency will not feel happy about a system like this. I mean if I am trying to create the best possible tank I think I'd be very happy to tweak my new chest piece so that I get a larger shield recharge rate rather then a bigger strength bonus right? Without this system I would need to make due with whatever stats I get and out of every drop only one will likely really be of use to me. Like this there is still the ideal drop no doubt but I can get intermediary drops that I can also tweak to get them as close to my ideal as much as possible. I personally think that's a good thing. After all such min/maxers generally like to dwell into spread sheets with complex formulas so that they can track what effect every single stat change will have on their over all goal. I seriously doubt such people will feel intimidate by a simple power redirection system like this one.

    Someone after peak efficiency is by definition a power user and in my experience power users like to have as much control as possible even if that adds a little more complexity.
  10. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Do you really think that it’s unfortunate that you cannot get peak efficiency if you use the ‘skip it’ option?

    W* is not a RTS or FPS, it’s a RPG, and RPGs have always been; if you want your “character” at top performance, you’re going to have to work at it; but if you don’t want to work at it, your character can still perform adequately and be fun to play. This has been true of RPGs all the way back to table top P&P.

    My first experience with RP gaming was on my second 6 week detachment to Adak Alaska in the dead of winter. I’d done everything, and seen everything that was possible on this frozen piece of rock at that time of year, on my first 6 week detachment. I was tired of drinking (We got caught with an engine change on New Year’s day. Probably the longest fricken engine change on record.); and watching the same <REDACTED>ing movies had gotten old on my first 6 weeks; so I’m wandering around the barracks board out of my skull and come across a group of people from my squadron, laughing and having fun, and no alcohol seemed to be involved.
    After watching for a bit I asked what was going on. They stopped their game play and gave me a basic overview of AD&D and handed me a 12x8, 126 page players handbook, and went back to playing.
    I skimmed the book, and saw the complexity of the system, but I still wanted to play. I asked if I could make up a character and the DM replied that there was a character from another player that had finished their six weeks and had gone back home; and that I could use that character if I wanted. He handed me a sheet of paper covered on both sides with character info, and I jumped into the game. They helped me out when needed, and in the end the whole group wiped, but I was tossing oil flasks and whacking monsters with my staff right up to the end (I was handed a Mage character, and they were very lite in spells at that time.). I didn’t know that this was the last session for this group, so this was a killer dungeon, and getting wiped was kind of the intent of this session, but I did not care, I had a blast.

    A killer dungeon group wipe was my intro to RPG, and as soon as I got back to the real part of the States I went and got a copy of the AD&D Players Handbook.

    The biggest issue I have with WoW is that it introduced RPGlite to RTS and FPS gamers who now think that WoW is the norm for RPGs, and that complexity of a character within a RPG should not exists (Which makes sense if you’re a RTS or FPS gamer.). I have yet to find a Computer RPG that matches the complexity of P&P AD&D; otherwise Traveler or Shadow Run.
  11. CRB_Gortok

    CRB_Gortok Carbine Econ Designer

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    PChan Mangoun Bull and I played Shadowrun up until about 2 months ago when the schedule got too hectic.
  12. MMOPapa

    MMOPapa Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think you misinterpreted my usage of 'unfortunately'. The inability to skipping the modification process isn't what I was saying was unfortunate; the fact that the quote which I was responding to would no longer be correct due to the facts portrayed thus far during this thread, is what was unfortunate. Think of it more as a way of saying "Sorry... but you're wrong." It's just a usage of politeness. There is nothing unfortunate about the information provided for the modification process thus far aside from it being 'unfortunate' that more hasn't been revealed. Nudge, nudge. :laugh:

    I personally think that the funnest part of Dungeons and Dragons was that moment when the dice were let go... and you knew in that moment that Lady Luck (or whomever you believe in) was going to tell you whether or not you succeeded. And you know what? Failure was just as fun as success. People laughed and had a good time regardless. But now a days? People expect success in everything... they want to roll a caster who is going to hit every time... no chance of the spell fizzling. They want a rogue who will never be detectable... no chance of being heard or seen. It's unfortunate because they make up a good chunk of the player-base today and if games want to be 'exceedingly successful', they have to cater to them. But I don't want to take this conversation any further from the original topic than what we've already discussed. Though if you wish to continue our conversation; you're more than welcome to either start a new thread (and I'd join you) or just message me. :coffee:
  13. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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  14. Rare Spawn

    Rare Spawn Cupcake

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    This! A thousand times this! Gaming suffers as a whole when there is only one 'right' way to do something. One 'right' way to gear up, one 'right' set of armor, one 'right' skill rotation to use...Instead of playing the character the way you want to play, you are forced into playing the way someone decided is the 'right' way to play, because it is the most optimal and best way, and the only way if you want to be taken seriously.

    Choice is good. Thinking is even better! Bring it on Carbine...because I'm ready!
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  15. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Except that choice will not actually be there. There is always a "best" way. The game is based on math, therefore its impossible to get away from. There are most certainly bonuses to this system, namely that players will have to learn how the system works to utilize it correctly. Ie instead of looking at a piece and knowing before hand whether it is good or not you will have to see that you stay within certain number thresholds. But your argument of "choice" is bunk.
  16. Kallor

    Kallor Cupcake

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    While there will always be maths answers, they tend to be most accurate in a static situation. As long as there are enough intangibles like random movement (and that the different dps times allow for different ability combo's) then you can arrive at a point once you have a base level of stats the final few % of stats won't matter that much.

    Sure vs a training dummy people will sim out the perfect set of stats down to 3 or 4 decimal places, but if you never ever see a boss that allows you to do it, then it's not really any more valuable than a rough guide.

    If WildStar abilites all scale perfectly evenly with no cross ability interections then yeah, gear will have an optimal solution, however it is possible for it to be designed in such a way that the answer will be "It depends on the boss and your chosen ability set, but this is approximate".

    I have no idea which way WildStar will end up as. However it is possible to have a degree of ambiguity.
  17. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Except it doesn't. Even with ambiguity it still comes down to what is the most useful in the highest number of situations. That is what will be geared for and toward unless you are too ignorant to know better or so stupid that you must be contrarian because by god you just have to be a special snowflake.

    You people (and yes, I do mean you people) keep throwing up stupid arguments because you misuse, or are abused by those who misuse, such things. Even in WoW you had plenty of ambiguity to tweak things. Such "bis" was only good in specific situations. It did not stop them from being mostly accurate, nor an amazing guide. Those situations where oddball specs are "better" are so few and far between that for the most part they are incredibly poor. You can argue "viable versus optimal" till you are blue in the face, all it does is detract from the prowess required to complete the encounter. And that holds true whether its solo or group.
  18. Crow

    Crow Cupcake

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    I am creating a street shaman ( gator totem ) for a tabletop game my friend will GM. :)
  19. Kallor

    Kallor Cupcake

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    Your response appears to be talking about what we have seen in previous MMO's rather that what I actually wrote. And from that persective I mostly agree with what you say, but it's not really responding to what I wrote. Even WoW (at least from start till Cat for warlocks) there was no ambiguity, the optimal stats were known. While I never gave my alts quite as much attention whenever I went looking to gear them up there was only ever one way to gear them per spec. So if your understanding of what I meant with ambiguity, was what you saw in WoW, let me assure you it certainly does not meet my definition of ambiguity.

    You can build a system of skills and bosses that vary stat weightings differently for every single fight.
    You can make individual bosses vary enough each attempt (and the already known weekly variations) that parsing the numbers would give different stat weights.

    It is possible, however I haven't seen it done. What will WildStar do? I'm expecting it will have precision stat weightings with no variation. It wont really worry me either way, I'll crunch the numbers and min max like everyone else. Makes it easy.

    Possible yes, probable no. Won't really know till open beta I guess but I know what to expect.
  20. Rare Spawn

    Rare Spawn Cupcake

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    Note that I did not say there would not be a 'BIS' item, only that gaming suffers when there is only one 'right' way to do things. I stand by this statement.

    I could be wrong, but I have been interpreting what Gortok has been posting as saying that we all need to think about gear differently. There, of course, will always be a 'BIS' item, but since nobody knows when it will drop, and it will drop only rarely, people will be forced to make gear choices based on what is available. There will be more than one 'right' answer, more than one viable way to do things. Multiple pieces of gear will drop from multiple different instances that will 'pass'.

    There is certainly a choice there, whereas in WoW there was usually only one right answer.

    I am hoping this means I won't have random people inspecting me and saying, "You don't have 'Nimrod's Bracers of Ineptitude' from BaddieBadBoss in RandomHardInstance, you suck at life!" Hopefully my gear will be more of a reflection of my direct knowledge on how to play my class, then it will be of my google skills on where to find the BIS gear.

    I also feel it is important to note that player skill > gear score. You can be the best geared player in the world, but if you stand in the fire you are still going to die. Gear is only one part of the equation that makes a successful raid.

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