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Community Uplink - Healthy MMO Community?

Discussion in 'WildStar News' started by Fate Flyer, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Everytime you call me lazy because I prefer dungeon finder group rather than doing nothing for 2 hours trying to find a group, you are bashing me. It makes me feel really provoked to bash back until you get it.

    EDIT: sorry, Flawz, didn't see who I replied to, I don't believe you called me lazy, yet :p Take the above 2 lines as replied to anyone who did.

    But you reached the real problem in the community, which is players.

    Players are the community problem. We need consequence and something that raise the standard of behavior - including not calling people lazy just because you do not understand, why they love being able to group versus not being able to group, because it is exhausting just to get a group together and it takes so much time.

    Dungeon finders / grouping would improve by loads if there was consequence to using it, for those who do not just shrug off, when the occasional jerk shows up in a group. When I meet them every fifth group or so, I just put them on ignore, never to be grouped with again. But I am introvert, so a jerk does not ruin my experience through their social predatorism unless they are really bad.

    Even with "server only" option you will still meet jerks from your own server, because they are what they are - and that is the problem.

    With something like circles, the community can evolve around quality networking for objectives and interests, rather than chat channels that is overflown with trolls and lfg spammers. Let's start there.

    EDIT: That said, I do not mind same server option as the default, it would be the best option - as long as I can choose cross server for getting a group outside peak hours, when it is harder (and people usually nicer).
    Flawz likes this.
  2. Myrrdhinn

    Myrrdhinn Well-Known Cupcake

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    This is a tough one.

    First of all, the devs attitude towards the community is extremely important and it defines the overall atmosphere among the fans.

    If they ignore groups, or make people feel left out, it reflects on the conversations, forums, sites etc.
    For example, RP-ers. Many MMO company don't give a damn about them, because they are the minority of gamers. I saw the hatred towards them in many games and the devs or mods didn't cared about them.

    Another thing is listening. (I know you do listen :inlove: ). Many, many.. many company says "Yeah, we totally care about your opinion! Share it with us (and we do not care about it), but do it! ^^" But in the end, they only do what they think is profitable and satisfy x amount of people, because they pay the most. They don't care about the y amount of people who they piss off.

    When you actually listen someone, and care about his/her opinion, that makes him/her happy. Happy person = healthy conversations, and positive forum posts.
    Not many companies does this.


    Of course, friendly and caring devs are not enough.

    Let me put it this way:
    In the early days of WoW or Lineage 2 there were things (I don't play them nowdays so I don't know if it is still exist) that bonded together people. I remember the good old times, when we killed the game boss Antharas with 20 people. It took about 11 hours, but we did it. Or times when we captured or defended castles in RP fashion. We needed interaction in these games, and we needed to rely on each other.

    In the recent MMO-s (hmm.. GW2 for example), you don't have to open your mouth anymore. You can beat the game (yeah... beat an MMO... silly :D) playing solo. In these games, the guilds are for decoration. I was a leader in many guilds. Back in the old days, and now.

    Now in GW (again), I didn't know half of the members. There is no need to know them. (That sounded cruel).
    Of course, there are exceptions as always, but it is rare.

    So if there is a common goal, or something to share among fellow players, they will join forces and making friendships. If there is only rivalry or nothing at all (or boring stuff), players start complaining, hating on each other and on the devs and thats it.

    People with common interest always find each other.

    Sorry for the long post :oops:

    On second thoughts, no I don't :sneaky:
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  3. Glacius

    Glacius Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think both of you have merit. Granted, I personally would like to do away with features like lfd but I understand why it is implemented. Nobody wants to log on and have to spend a long time just looking for a group and the lfd really helps when you don't have much time. I also think, however, that it detracts from communities and allows douches to be douches without penalty.
    Yakzan likes this.
  4. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    There were people doing stuff out in the world while their group leader was forming a group back in the day. Since you seem like the type that doesn't put their own groups together, I'm going to assume you weren't the one LFM in General chat when you got into a group. What would keep you from farming mats out in the world?

    Especially since in a lot of games, you can join General chat of the main city from anywhere. So you could even start your own group halfway across the world while you're farming mats, or join someone else's group while doing the same.

    But I'll tell you what never happened back in the day. No one ever sat in safe zones waiting for the game to come to them. Gamers weren't lazy back then. They didn't expect full sets of epic gear just days after hitting level cap. They didn't expect to be able to immediately teleport everywhere they want to go, rather than have to take time out of their busy day to ride their mount to a dungeon.

    When these things are in place, they cheapen exactly what a MMO is. Epic gear should be... epic. The world should be huge. But it's quite tiny when all it is are your safe zones and instances which you can teleport to.
    John, Joukehainen and Myrrdhinn like this.
  5. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's the problem I have. I supported group finders, at first. I loved battlegrounds. But when I realized what the cost of those conveniences were, I was immediately anti-queue.

    The convenience is not worth the destruction of the community. And it does destroy the community. And if you've never played a MMO with a good community, you really missed out.
    Joukehainen likes this.
  6. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Another thing I was thinking about when I saw my "community" on linkedin. 2.8 million is connected to me through the mere 92 personal contacts I have.

    Why do we need to have the prehistoric mammoth that server community is, with the foul chats and limitation to only being usefull while in towns?

    Why are we not - with a game already applying social media through circles - defining our community by our contacts, their contacts and their contacts up to third or fourth degree? It is at this point a just as well known and more current way to define ones community than server is.

    Contacts from friends, guild, warparty and maybe even circles would mean a lot of people in the third degree. If we still add same server also, it is plenty to match up with.
  7. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I played back then. Grouped many a time in Wall of Slaughter with the train fest sometimes happening there. Raided from PoP to Burried Sea and then on WoW and Rift.

    Since gathering groups is a horrible deal to me, I wouldn't dream of abusing someone elses goodwill by forking it off on them to do.

    Edit: add to that, I have no real wish to be dependent on someone else to log on to fix up a group for me
  8. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    Prehistoric Mammoth? Have you ever played a pre-WoW MMO and been part of a good community?

    Also, keep social media out of MMOs. That's the last thing I want. Any hint of Facebook or Twitter in my escape from my days' annoyances.

    EDIT: Clearly, you've played pre-WoW MMOs with your Wall of Slaughter reference. So then you remember what a community is like. And you know what a MMO is now. Are they not vastly different to you? You don't miss the feel of a MMO from 10+ years ago?

    I do. MMOs are terrible now. Crossing my fingers for this one.......
  9. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    That servers make up the larger community is a prehistoric mammoth. Maybe it is still valid as in usefull, you can argue for that, but that does not mean it have to be the only way to define community. For most it does not seem broke, so some do not want to talk alternatives that makes more sense as technology emerge to allow it.

    I take it you do not like circles? They are inspired by social media.

    Since you just say MMO, I guess 2 years with running clans on Swirve Utopia counts :p

    4 years on EQ1, community was good, for most parts, jerks were also loud back then just fewer because the total pop pool was lower, and I did have the misfortune of grouping a couple of times with a real psychotic type. I measure all jerks against him now and it makes them seem like misbehaving kittens.

    Groupwise I was always dependent on someone else to get anything not soloable done, or had to look around for healers and tanks forever, often with no luck or with having to replace group members even before the group started.

    If that is quality game time compared to actually get to group and finishing content then I surely do not use the same measuring stick as you... I enjoy grouping, also with strangers, but the gathering ruins everything.

    Easiest was to hope someone in guild would log on at some point to group before raids. Sometimes they did.

    When it comes to grouping outside my community (guild, friend list) being able to use DF made me able to play on my own terms, rather than someone elses. Maybe it is bad of me to want that. It starts to sound like it.
  10. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    So you want the game to do it for you? You're okay with turning the entire elder game experience into a big lobby for groups because you can't be bothered to do it yourself?

    That's what's happening. And whether or not people realize it, it's part of why MMOs are failing. They are soulless turds now. /queue /gear /queue /gear. Oh, got all my gear. /quit
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  11. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Yes. That is after all what DF does, equalize the player base :)

    ehm, before we talk anymore, maybe you should read up on elder game, because you knowledge on that is a little wonky, if you think a couple of dungeons is the entirety of elder games :)

    Gear is an additional reward you may or may not get when you run dungeons. If you only do dungeons to gear up, then I pity you. I do it to group and have a good time.
  12. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh, I know. This game is going to be sooooo different from every MMO that came before this one that claimed how unique they were, too. Don't get me wrong, I'm hopeful, but this game could easily turn into a queue lobby like pretty much every game before it has.

    And how does it equalize the playerbase? Because it encourages a lack of effort? And that's something everyone can get behind... laziness.
  13. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Yes, I do remember what community was like. Just like the lost first love it is not forgotten. Back then there was plenty of GM events, guild run community events (see video, the raid guild I belonged to did a pvp tournament) and sometimes topics in chats beyond trolling, lfg spam, and the occasional gold seller/gold beggar (which is what I am very reluctant about calling a community).



    However I do not miss attempting to gather a group. DF is better, but not perfect either. Nor does DF really prevent community from happening, where the players wants it to grow.
  14. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Because it gives everyone a chance to group with little effort. Instead of only rewarding some and making it a major ordeal for others.
  15. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    So why did all that change? And when did it change? In my opinion, it changed when WoW decided to make everything stupidly easy. When they decided that the only effort one really needed to put forth for epics, was to login and queue. And then... it has continued to get worse. Game companies keep caving to the WoW generation, and then their games fail. Coincidence? I think not!

    There's the problem right there! "little effort"

    Let's bring effort back to MMOs! Remember when playing a MMO was harder than rolling your face across your keyboard? Let's go back there! Let's not equalize the playerbase. Let there be elite players, and good players, and noobs, again, not just a gear score number, a role in a dungeon, and nothing else.
  16. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Funny, I would think making the dungeons themselves harder for all was a more effective place to start... rather than making it harder to group for some.

    You practically want grouping to be more exclusive. That's actually not very community minded of you.
  17. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    I agree there needs to be consequences. The question is how do you do that with x-realm? If there was a legitimate solution to the problem of x-realm player accountability I think many players would not be as bothered by the system. But I have yet to see any real solutions to the problem.

    I don't necessarily think its lazy to not want to wait for 2 hours, but I do think its somewhat selfish to prioritize personal convenience over the health of the community as a whole.
    Joukehainen likes this.
  18. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    2.8 million connections. That is why the 'prehistoric mammoth' of servers needs to continue its existence. Of those 2.8 million contacts, how many do you actually know? 50? 100? That smaller group that you actually know is what I want to be my server. I'd rather have a few hundred friends/acquaintances than a million strangers.
  19. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    That is in 3rd degree, it is kinda implied I do not know my friends friends friends.

    I actually know 92 of them, I even know some at third degree, since they are among other places employees of Carbine Studioe :p

    Choosing between extending my community to people my friends knows and those friends know or just including all who simply signed up to the realm name... the first actually make more sense.
  20. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    You do not think it is wrong to make it a lot harder for some to get groups, while some will have as easy a time as with DF?

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