1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Community Uplink - Healthy MMO Community?

Discussion in 'WildStar News' started by Fate Flyer, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    Wrong? Not remotely. I guess I don't see how it is harder for one person over another to form a group. Typical human characteristics that aid in real life social situations (charisma, confidence etc) are null in video games where you're acting behind an online avatar. Effort is the only thing that matters, and anyone can have that.

    The larger point is that regardless if some players are better at grouping than others, the numerous detriments to the community that x-realm brings outweigh the benefits imo.
    Sevvy likes this.
  2. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    Try introvert vs extrovert, try having a role that is always in demand.
  3. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    If someone is an introvert to the point where they do not want to interact with others at all, MMO is probable the wrong genre for them. As far as the role goes, dps will have a harder/longer time finding groups regardless of what system is used.

    I would love to the the LFG tool from TBC come back. You could put your name in a list for the dungeon you wanted, and if you wanted to go do your thing and not actively try to find a group you could while you waited for someone else to invite you. Players could see the name of other players before grouping so your personal reputation mattered.
  4. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    Someone, who does not want to play with others anytime at all would not want to group in the first place. That is antisocial people.

    Introvert does not mean antisocial, that is a common misconception, so I understand why you get confused.

    LFG windows never worked. Tried them in all the games I played, not a single one had one that was used - and no, there was nothing wrong with my reputation, I was just not extrovert enough to matter and be remembered as a name in chats etc.
  5. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    Sounds like you're letting your personal experience jade your view of the entire system. I am an introvert and I had great success using the LFG list tool. Granted I was willing to form groups myself. I never invited people (or was denied invitation) because I/they were 'too introverted' or 'not chatty enough'. To me the point of name-reputation isn't to find a certain personality to group with, its just to weed out the bad players who ninja, leave group etc.
    Joukehainen likes this.
  6. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    There are different degrees of introvert to extrovert.

    I do prefer soloing rather than spending 2 hours gathering a group and then another 2 to complete it, replacing people on the way. Hoowever, if soloing is all there is left, then the game is not really worth it.

    Now, 10 years later, I do form groups for open world objectives, but only when I really need it, and have not seen anyone post for groups for days. I help others, since I am a good community member.

    Without DF, grouping instances for fun will be history though, since gathering the group and keeping a full group takes all the fun out of doing the dungeon. I know, I am not the only one, so dungeons in generel will be used less.

    Less people doing them, harder to make groups...
  7. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    Its impossible to draw that conclusion. I could argue that more people will do dungeons because the game will have a better community without a finder. That too would be conjecture.

    I think your claims of 2 hour waits to find are group are hyperbole. I generally found groups in 15 to 30 mins, quicker than the automated tools in many cases.

    It is definitely more work to form groups yourself, i'm not arguing that. But that is the price to pay for having a good community.

    All of this is irrelevant since the game already has x-realm finder and the home-server check box will not be used imo, so you will get your way of anonymous, zero chat, in-and-out dungeon runs.
  8. Joukehainen

    Joukehainen Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    308
    Trophy Points:
    63

    I'm definitely an introvert. Last time someone I didn't know started talking to me in an MMO (he wanted to quest with me) I actually got extremely uncomfortable and did what I could to avoid the fellow (which I felt bad about later bc he turned out to be a very friendly, helpful chap!). I don't go out of my way to talk to people, online or offline (esp offline).

    But that's not really what server community is, imo. It's not so much getting involved in chats in the sense of a social forum. I mean, that can happen, but it's not the extent of it. A server is still a big place with thousands of players (esp nowadays), so ofc not everyone is going to be noticed/remembered. It's more like "the server that plays together stays together." MMOs are imo now long-suffering from the "everything has to be solo-friendly!" epidemic that has the unfortunate result of trivializing content and kinda taking the "massively" out of the MMO. This in turn makes communities suffer, esp server communities, bc there is no incentive, little to no reason to interact other than for the sake of chatting with strangers. On that note, I've been considering making a thread on the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj and how server-wide collabs like that can be amazing experiences.

    As I've written in other threads, I feel very strongly that the lobby-style has to go.

    And let me just throw out that anyone who was played or heard about MOBAs will probably recognize that those kinds of lobby games are pretty famous for the toxic behaviour of their communities (by which I mean aggressive flaming and abuse, trolling, intentional feeding, ksing etc).
    John likes this.
  9. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    Most likely because you played peak hours? outside peak hours is a totally different matter.
  10. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    No, you are right, seeing someones name often should not make it a easy to recognice name for grouping over someone one never saw before.

    Those big open world collaborate community events have unfortunately been sorely absent for a long time, which in my opinion are more damaging than a DF - especially a DF that can work for server only.

    Patch 5.2 in WoW had the new isle and it was a community effort to open it all up, rares on the isle are on shared tag, so people called out which was up, and such. The 2 new raid bosses everyone call in everyone online they know.

    DF still exists, but people actually manage to collaborate despite that - maybe because it does not actually effect open world collaboration at all

    So just maybe we need more open world collaborate events and activities to gather around, more taking initiatives as leading guilds or interest groups to start events, and less passing the blame on DF.
  11. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    Again, any scenario that has to do with total number of players is going to affect any grouping system. The wait time for the automated tool will also be longer if you play during non-peak hours.
  12. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    Any sense of time is improved by being able to spend my time doing other stuff, instead of spamming for group, add to that that the crossrealm may be on a sligthly different timezone than server only. Which is the marvelous thing about DF, and makes the old way very much subpar to it for outside peak hours grouping.
  13. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    564
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nova scotia, Canada
    I can see why some folks find the dungeon finder to be a horrifying concept but I remember making groups before it and even then we would run into bad nasty apples. Its just that the pool of bad apples is way bigger with cross realm groups and throw in anonymous grouping and folks will let themselves be nasty to someone they normally wouldnt be to.
    But even before cross realm groups we had nasty people and they tended to be healers and tanks because they knew they could get groups regardless . And they used to be even nastier then randoms . Like waaaaay nastier. I saw folks I considered friends be nasty to pugs because it didnt matter or not if they grouped with them again since they could get groups from within guild.

    Personal reputation only mattered to their guild and clique.
    What should have mattered is being decent to others.

    What my take on all this talk is a good community requires individual effort.

    Im pretty chatty ingame and even in a random group , I chat and get folks to chat. Maybe Im just lucky but even though I prefer soloing , I know or rather knew tons of folks who would randomly chat with me or if I saw them in the world, we would talk . Id get asked to random groups and Id say for sure or cant sorry semi afk or so on.
    I will ask if anyone is new and if they are I walk them through a place. If not, then will quite happily chat away, and it will sometimes draw folks out of their shell.
    Maybe Im lucky, but Im pretty easy going. If I have a bad day, I dont take it out on random people.
    If im jaded by something , i try not to spoil it for someone new who still has that new car feeling.


    I will be using the dungeon finder and yes Ill tick realm only . Not to try to limit the knuckleheads I run into or for server reputation accountability. But for seeing someone from my server and saying hey ! I know you, you have that awesome house or in that guild that did this etc etc. Hows it going?

    Im rambling I know and Im not trying to be after school special.

    I guess my take away point is : Its not the tools that make or hinder a great community although that certainly helps/can hurt.
    Its the people and what their attitude is.
    SiegaPlays likes this.
  14. Joukehainen

    Joukehainen Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    308
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I'm not sure it's about passing blame, I've seen several posts on these forums and lots of disenchantment elsewhere about everyone just standing around in Dalaran hitting lfg, rinse repeat. Many, many people express their experiences with this as damaging to the game community. It's a mentality issue for MMO developers imo, which is why I see it going hand in hand with the move away from server-wide events like the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj.

    The red thread that unifies them is that both are decisions governed by making almost everything solo-friendly, or even more solo-friendly if it already is. I would also include the trend of making everything easier and, dare I say it, more accessible in this (elites get turned into signatures, signatures get turned into normal mobs, group quests get made soloable, bosses get nerfed...). The move away from meaningful crafting professions is also part of this same trend. These sorts of things are imo naturally going to damage community-building bc they foster a playerbase that really has no need for interaction with other players, other than for chatting to strangers. No need for theorycrafting and collab, no need for helping others, lack of consequences for toxic behaviour, etc.
    John likes this.
  15. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    Well we're just going in circles. I realize you personally like the lfd tool for your own convenience. The question is are you willing to give up your personal convenience for the sake of the larger community, and I guess the answer to that is no.
  16. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    Yeah, that is not really DF that is the problem, it is player attitude. I never stuck around Dalaran, so maybe that is why I did not sit observing other people hitting lfg. Wonder who cared to spend their time observing others do it.

    Making content more accessible is good. Making content easy to do when access it gained is not.

    Can only hope that a next gen version of DF includes something that still makes content easy to access, but encourage people to do an effort in the content. Which prolly means fixing the content most of all :p

    While we are on that, we could use something that qualify people to queue up in specific roles, that is not based on ilvl. Some sort of task that requires some skill and power level in the role.

    Atm in WoW someone can queue up in all raids in quested dps gear, just because they have another role set that is high enough ilvl. That is so wrong on so many levels, and usually those sorts gets kicked.
  17. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    You are correct, since I do not really believe in the premise of DF being horrible to the community.

    Me having easier access to dungeon groups using DF does absolutely nothing to ruin the community. The alternative is that I solo, and really, besides making it less attractive for me to play, does that help the community? So what is the difference, the community is not effected, why should I not prefer the method most suitable for me then?

    Could even say DF makes me better equipped to help the community in the open world, which all in all is a benefit, not only for me.
  18. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    But isn't your last paragraph the definition of 'accessible', which you consider a good thing? And aren't the skill checks you reference to see content very 'unaccessible'?

    I think that ties in to Jouks point about the entire mindset of MMO devs. Can you really have 'hard, accessible' content? Can you really appease the no-efford-required crowd and appease the people who want deep, challenging content? I think MMOs try to stretch themselves too thin with the 'something for everyone' approach and no one ends up happy.
  19. Joukehainen

    Joukehainen Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    308
    Trophy Points:
    63
    It's a player attitude change in relation to a significant shift in design philosophy on the part of developers. Much like we can't just "pass the blame" onto DF, we can't just pass the blame onto a few trolls in DF groups. It's not a coincidence that very difficult raids, 40-mans, server-wide events and the like started disappearing and then DF started appearing. In Lotro, the same has been going on: there's been a mass removal of group quests on the overworld, elites on the overworld, dungeons have been split up into several smaller dungeons, raids got easier and shorter, and an LFG tool with porting has emerged. The incentive and need for collaborating with others diminishes with each of these things, which imo in turn diminishes the game community.
    SiegaPlays likes this.
  20. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    The community is affected. You are choosing to look at the problem from a incredibly insulated viewpoint where you seem to be purely judging the LFD tool by how it affects you and only you. If there is no lfd tool, ok you will go solo. What about the thousands of other players who will be grouping with players on their own server? You refuse to acknowledge it but there are definite community-wide effects of having or not having a lfd tool.
    Sevvy likes this.

Share This Page