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Community Uplink - PvP Frustrations

Discussion in 'WildStar News' started by Zap-Robo, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. Zap-Robo

    Zap-Robo Administrator • King Cupcake

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    This week, for the Community Uplink over on Twitter, Carbine are wanting you to share your biggest frustrations with PvP. Join in the conversation on Twitter (remembering to use the #WSuplink hashtag) or simply share your thoughts here on WSC.

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  2. Kurik

    Kurik Super Cupcake

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    Definitely a topic I'm interested in, can't wait to read the analysis. :)
  3. haggeragge90

    haggeragge90 New Cupcake

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    Im mostly worried about how the balance evading. I mean you can't allow someone to evade as much as they want in PvP that would be just plain stupid... I believe they already know that though. Also having a limited evading system allows for them not stuffing the game with cc's
  4. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Rehashing my tweets here :p

    I would like to totally squash gear progression in pvp.

    Take it out, there are other ways to progress character than with gear by emulating pve progression. This move would remove the dual gear set problematic.

    Give the ranks meaning for progression, add choices by ranks, make the ranks the level equivalent for calculating pvp stats. If you gain ranks, you improve your character.

    Add special pvp oriented talents to choose from, as a player raise in rank. Talents that is not about extending pvp power, but spawning pvp objectives and access more pvp game play from solo, to group, to raid to community size pvp events for those at the very top.

    Example: Top ranks above a certain threshhold could get option of an ability to spawn a 40 man open world contested boss once a week or month - enough on the server of high rank would give a lot of open world fighting.

    While we are at it, for pvp instances, match people with people of similar pvp power/rank, and match premade against premade, also if they have to go against their own faction.

    Got an idea for a battleground setting, and I am wondering if it is something I can make in these uhm, war plot featurettes...
    Rylia likes this.
  5. haggeragge90

    haggeragge90 New Cupcake

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    I agree with you on some of the points, but since i myself is more into the whole max 5 man vs 5 man. even 2v2 like wow arena for me is amazing and really the ultimate test of skill and teamwork. Although i agree that having too much gear affect etc isnt good. Make ranks for bg's etc. Although i believe you should use vanilla wow design in concideration when it comes to large scale pvp. Only pvp items give bit more stamina for survival thats it. If you need something to balance out the damage people can dish out with good pve gear then maybe make sure that there is certain pvp gear only for arena. Or even better make sure like in GW2 that everyone is set at a certain level of stats and that they keep their gear look. And from arena you will get cosmetics to make your gear change look into some kind set looking thing, that way you will avoid the thing punishing wow now after all theese years. The numbers is too big!
  6. Rylia

    Rylia Cupcake

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    This! I'm not partial to the grind, either, but playing with randoms against a premade can be so much worse.
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  7. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    Evading/dodging is currently controlled via a stamina-like resource. It is not unlimited.
  8. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    What if there are ranks for every coalition of pvp encounter, and the abilties to choose from getting ranks in each type is related to something you can use related to the same province. What if a unified pvp rank is one thing to determine pvp stats, and abilties/talents gained from advancing in pvp achievements is the other part of pvp character progression.

    So open world achievement gives abilities to spawn more objectives in open world, teams is to spawn objectives in teamvsteam (assuming the match is even both teams have this extra environmental distraction to time correctly), etc.

    Surely some sort of progression, outside gearing, that fits multiple types of pvp'ers can be added and balanced and made more fun than that of gear grinding, something more based on skills, adding more pvp fun option and more balanced than the current newbie vs epic pvp geared I see plague the pvp in mmorpgs.
  9. Dpz

    Dpz Cupcake

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    I wrote a long post but I feel as i'm coming out as a wall of text whiner everytime i talk about this subject because i love both PvP&PvE and do them equally so balancing isn't really a problem for me, mix and match of gear is want i want.

    Basically i'd like for it to work like vanilla WoW especially world PvP! Then make a seperate gear only for Arenas.
  10. Maestric

    Maestric Cupcake

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    Frustration with pvp, i'd have to say that the thing that I dislike the most as a PVE player is getting certain nerfs to my abilities because of balance in Pvp, i'd just like to see these two things beeing separate , without one interfering with the other. :)
  11. Gravy

    Gravy Cupcake

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    As someone who loves PvP in MMOs I'll go with the following:

    Gear should not play a role, it was always stupid in Burning Crusade to fight against the guy with dual glaives that would just dominate you. In unranked grindy PvP scenarios I'm ok with it, but in any sort of ranked match there should be a pool of items everyone has access to.

    The gear grind, lets get rid of it. There has got to be a better way to do PvP.

    Abilities being nerfed for PvP and then screwing up PvE, or vice versa.

    Scenarios! What is the problem with PvP lately being so stale and boring? We've got team deathmatch, and then capture the flag, and king of the hill. Woooo! Let's incorporate portions of Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory. Let's have a ship dropping you off at a waypoint in a heated battlefield where you have to run through trenches, moving forward and blowing up barriers, hacking terminal consoles, and generally doing things that are fun and varied. I want to say 'oh man, will I be doing team deathmatch? Some objective gameplay? Ohh maybe a defense map, or perhaps capture the flag? So many options!'.

    Maps, lots of maps. No one cares if you mirror the map, seriously, it is fine if you have to do that for balance, just please provide us with more than 3 PvP maps/scenarios at release.

    Less liberal with nerfing/changes to mechanics because of complaints. There are always going to be complaints of 'this class/spell/spec is op!'. Instead of falling to the pressure, do a deep dive into the statistics, review matches with the top players, and then decide what to do. Don't jump the gun and provide a subpar fix.

    PvP that matters. I'd like more than just a cool title and some shoulders for PvP'ing, once I acquire all the gear/weapons there should be more to do, and more to entertain those of us who are focused primarily on PvP.

    Multiple specs out of the gate. Honestly I don't get why this has always been an issue, it seems to just be because of the gold sink, but I want to have a tank/PvP/PvE DPS spec on my warrior style class, and a healer/PvP healer/PvP DPS/PvE DPS spec on my healer. If it costs me a flat monthly gold fee so be it, I just don't want to waste my time swapping back and forth.

    Overall it comes down to one thing, creating varied, entertaining scenarios that reward players for both their dedication and skill while ensuring PvP isn't simply a gear treadmill.
    Aheadache, Bantheera, Dauthis and 2 others like this.
  12. gyves

    gyves Cupcake

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    My biggest frustration with PvP is that, over the last decade, games have forced you to sacrifice the MMO aspect to participate in it. Games have boldly proclaimed themselves "Massively Multiplayer" only to shunt subscribers into forty player or less instances to practice meaningful PvP. This is hardly the massive anyone had in mind.

    As I've said before, PvP should be a part of the world. MMO and PvP should both be married as a concept. Developers having failed to provide ways for PvP to impact the world or allowing enough room for players to do so through emergence has been a let down.
  13. Qimx

    Qimx Cupcake-About-Town

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    Besides the ar plot system which looks like the oficial system for the pvp scenrio I would ask for more mods, like defending a point, attacking a point, the typical train like tf2. The PvP should have more than 1 mode and more than 1 experience, and when I say "more than 1" I amen more than 3/4.
  14. spencerBAXLEY

    spencerBAXLEY Cupcake-About-Town

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    Forge Darksteel and Dpz like this.
  15. Ayr

    Ayr Cupcake-About-Town

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    Subbing, could bang on all day about the way I'd like it, but it's time now for Carbine to show their true colours :D
  16. Den

    Den New Cupcake

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    Liked Gravy post. He just said most of what concerns me in PvP system. More scenarios, more choices how can I spend my pvp experience and get my pvp fun. And I also want pvp that matters.Not only cool title and top pvp gear to achieve, there must be always something more to "PvP" for.

    Lore and nice pve I like also, it's a part of what can I do in MMOs and have fun, but mmo for me is just about community, to play with real players against other players and thus PvP is very important from my point of view for any MMO.
  17. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    1. The fact that balancing pve abilities affects pvp, and the other way around. I personally believe, you can't have a fair, competitive pvp without separate pvp oriented specs, or at least ability sets. Sadly, most developers seem to go the easy route and try to fit all in one. Granted, it's probably not particularly cost efficient, resources and time wise, to design the class from scratch around pve and then do the same for pvp. So maybe a fat set of abilities that are only pvp oriented, to balance out potential problems, could prove to be a feasible way to deal with it?

    2. Variety - or lack thereof - GW2 has proven to be a massive disappointment when it comes to instanced PVP and I'm almost scared to get hyped over a game again, then experience the same. I enjoy capture the flag bgs of some form, not when it's all you get :)

    3. Poorly implemented open world pvp/ganking. Encouraging open world pvp, open world battle zones that require strategy not just revolve around ganking lower level players. Some sort of penalty system in place to discourage over geared top level players camping towns with a sole purpose of making other people's life miserable. Or maybe not penalties, but rather rewards/bonuses for engaging players of similar level, reducing senseless ganking to a waste of time?

    4. Gear progression - and that's a tough one - on one side, gear progression seems to be a great choice, after all we are all loot monkeys, playing to win is nice, playing to win and getting a cookie for it, is even nicer. That, however, quickly creates a big gap in gear between players that are just starting and those that have already invested a certain amount of time in the game, pushing skill down the list, and gear up. That's alright in PVE, as you can catch up at your own pace and simply do content you are ready for until you climb the ladder, it's not fun in PVP,for either side really. In a perfect world - game with a healthy amount of active players - potential bracketing of queues could sort the instanced pvp bit. Sadly, that does not address the open world pvp issue.

    On the other hand., equal gear for everyone emphasizes skill, but unless you are simply super competitive by nature, it lacks that little bit of extra motivation. Cosmetic armor with non combat affecting bonuses or vanity items (pets/mounts/housing related accessories) as well as pvp specific titles, could work, given a healthy variety and awesome design, and assuming, nearly identical items/bonuses are not available all over the game or in a cash shop.
    Afrotech likes this.
  18. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    I absolutely can not STAND PvP gear progression. I also do not understand why designers feel it's a good thing, because as time goes on people end up getting so frustrated with their first level cap experience they stop PvPing all together.

    PvE gear grind is of course something that just exists in MMOs. I actually enjoy getting new gear for PvE. And I also totally understand it's not fair for Mr. 40 Man to sign up for a PvP match and run around slaughtering PvPers who don't want to raid. Heck, one of the biggest complaints in TODAY'S WoW is that when MoP came out, you had to do PvE content to get some of your PvP gear (weapons I think?). PvPers HATE THAT.

    So I do understand why the separate stat system for PvP gear was invented. I get the idea, but it's flawed because is further separates the community into two different progression paths. Why do that? It frustrates new players, or even a player who has less time to grind and ends up falling behind. Then there's always someone who has to take a week off and then come back full swing in hardcore mode but is STILL behind. Stats on gear should NEVER give you an advantage over another player.

    WildStar needs to either do away with PvP stat progression gear, and just give people an autoset of PvP only gear with equalized stats like in GW2. Better yet, they should maybe even examine Firefall's system for some ideas in that department as well. GW2's system wasn't perfect, and it also felt extremely separate due to how they designed it and how you couldn't wear your earned PvP gear anywhere else in the world. Don't do THAT, they took it too far...

    But stat grinding is just a stupid way to reward players, because it causes people who have a lot of time to basically walk all over players who either don't, or players who do but are new to the game and are trying to grind their way up from the bottom.

    Possible ideas for PvP player progression rewards:

    Titles
    Mounts
    Unique gear skins and weapons they can show off anywhere (but are ineffective against raid mobs, perhaps?)
    Medals they can pin to their outfits
    Special auras/effects
    Special emotes
    Mini Pets
    Special Path abilities (PvP themed Settler things to build, Soldier missions that involve other players in some way, Scientist Lore about the war and conflict and different battles that have happened over time or mini pets, Maybe short cuts open up on BG maps only Explorers can use, secret entrances to buildings and stuff like that too)

    Nothing is less fun then running into someone in PvP in a BG and having them type /slowclap as you attempt to do SOMETHING to make them sweat.

    SWTOR honestly has a very nice balancing feature in place for PvP matches as you level up. WildStar should take a look at that. But they should completely ignore that title for the end game PvP machine, as well as WoW's. Examine titles like GW2 and Firefall for ideas there and people will so happy, they might end up playing WildStar for years.
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  19. Ayr

    Ayr Cupcake-About-Town

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    Nah come on. GW didn't have PvE gear, instead it had inventiveness and the most clever PvE I've seen in an MMO, think Urgoz's Warren, DoA pre-easymode. What on Earth was Mallyx about. We spent hours, days, weeks, months thinking of builds, practicing them, scrapping them, to find ways to clear instances.

    Gearing for PvE is just as lame as gearing for PvP. Gear is gear, skill is skill.

    I'll accept a gear based game these days, but I struggle to accept that PvE and PvP players have different wants or that one is okay to gear for, and the other not so. PvE is indirectly competitive between players. PvP is directly competitive.

    You're right that this issue needs to be addressed. New players need access to PvP without getting facerolled.

    Easy to acquire starter PvP armor sets - that's the solution in my mind. See what AION did in their 2.5 patch. Completely brilliant. Introduced an easymode PvP set (all you need to do is go to Arena once a day, you can even afk in it for 10 mins). After a few weeks you have enough currency to buy a nice PvP set. Everyone's alts had full PvP sets after a few months of that patch. Loved it. It was even better defensively than the insanely hard to grind set that was just a bit better for min/maxers which still existed, but later came with some heavy conditions (PvP points upkeep, had to have a certain rank to equip).

    WoW is a horrible model to base judgements about balance on, and although you've played more than WoW, many players haven't, and that's why often they come off with some really partisan ideas. The next-gen MMOs are far smarter and finely tuned when it comes to gear. More carving tool, less chisel I think.
  20. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    I admit I would like to see a system closer to GW2 in that players don't have a stat grind at cap, but an appearance grind. It could EVEN be a lockout grind with no basis on better stats, in that you need a certain requirement to get in to a "higher tier" raid I suppose.

    My only worry about systems like this, and why I said I guess I'm ok with a PvE gear grind is because of what I'v been hearing lately from GW2 players. A ton of players tell me "I'm kind of bored with GW2 progression, because I got my perfect look and now I'm like 'What's the point of grinding the dungeons anymore?' "

    That kind of attitude doesn't keep people playing after all. We need a system then that both promotes people to continue playing to get the "next best thing" and one that doesn't turn players into walking behemoths of power compared to someone who just dinged the final level.

    The question still remains: Is cosmetic appearance enough? Maybe we should add more to it, by giving players titles, mounts, cool 'cosmetic' abilities, special emotes, awesome looking weapons we can customize the color of and power abilities of maybe... something anyway more than JUST a unique look, because from what I've heard, just a unique look or armor isn't keep players in seats because once they achieve their desired look, no other look often really grabs them and they begin to stagnate and get bored.
    Alverad and Ayr like this.

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