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Community Uplink - PvP Frustrations

Discussion in 'WildStar News' started by Zap-Robo, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    You asked it on twitter for me? Damn I love you

    [​IMG]

    Yeh people i don't have twitter.....not really my style.
  2. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    I feel sad....You misspelled my name :cry::cry::cry:

    Grtz Extatica :cool:
  3. Karl Pedder

    Karl Pedder Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sorry I fixed it. ;)

    snipped because of posts while i was editing..
    I don't know about you but I'd rather shorter queue times where the pool of players is just based on their ELO score than a smaller pool where it has to match ELO score + gear.
  4. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Well i don't want them to match ELO + gear, but the requirements for Gear according to ELO and the 3 different PvP systems....that's what they can really do wrong, and if they do PvP in Wildstar can become really frustrating in some ways.

    They just need to take a good/better look at it from my perspective.
  5. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    There's no doubt this game is going to be grindy in PvP and PvE elder game. They are using the carrot on a stick, vertical gear progression. My hope is that they can "hide" the grind with the way it all plays out. My concern is that I have said that before with different MMOs, and I'm still searching for the right fit. And, of course, the grind is purely subjective. One man's grind is another man's fun.

    /shrug
    Afrotech and Goreshank like this.
  6. Goreshank

    Goreshank Cupcake-About-Town

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    Excellent point.

    I don't mind a little carrot on a stick action as long as I get to nibble on it once and awhile.
    spencerBAXLEY and HoneyBadger like this.
  7. HoneyBadger

    HoneyBadger Cupcake

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    Lewd.

    Stop that, you're just a robot! you aren't supposed to have any feelings. I'll just have to bite your shiney metal butt!
  8. spencerBAXLEY

    spencerBAXLEY Cupcake-About-Town

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    Giggity...

    >_>;

    As you were.
  9. Zap-Robo

    Zap-Robo Administrator • King Cupcake

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  10. Karl Pedder

    Karl Pedder Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm not objecting to the grind on principal rather that making such a grind intrinsic to PvP that you claim to be inteded as skill based throws up a bunch of obsticles for accuratly assesing the level of player skill.
  11. Zybak

    Zybak Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think PvP gear is a necessary evil. Everyone always loves to say "I hate facing players that outgear me". But having gear progression is one of the things that keeps MMO's moving and gives you something to chase. Like someone said earlier, Guild Wars 2 is has a serious problem with staying compelling for a lot of players. Once you get the set you like and you think looks the coolest then you're done. There's no more carrot to chase, and is dumb is that sounds that's what MMO's are.

    I'd love for the rewards to be compelling outside of gear, if every skin always got progressively cooler but that's a lot of pressure on the developers. They should never do an Arena Point/Conquest point system like WoW did though. THAT really is a disaster where you can only get points once a week and if you miss a month you're screwed. Where it's literally impossible to catch up.

    I think keeping players busy is the most important thing imo. Especially at the start, just look at SWTOR and Guild Wars 2. A lot of players including myself just ended up doing everything extremely quickly, ESPECIALLY in Guild Wars 2.
  12. Mange

    Mange New Cupcake

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    Seconded on the need for PVP progression, needed.

    My PVP frustrations revolve around two things. I'll use GW2 as an example as it's the most popular game I can think of at the moment and it has my top two pet peeves for PVP.

    1) Lack of change (or rather lack of viable builds)
    Though this problem has plagued games throughout MMORPG history, I think GW2 would be a prime example for now. Half a year later you've still never seen a single trap thief, venom thieves are non existant, trick based thiefs are rare, god based elite skills are NEVER used. Classes have been using the exact same builds since launch and we usually end up with 2 viable builds per class even though there are so many different trait combinations and abilities.
    Some people will disagree with me but I'm willing to bet they haven't worked on balance with game coders for year as I have, you do not nickle and dime abilities that are underwhelming until they're simply "Almost good". Why?

    For one this takes a period of months and even years, the latter being GW2's case, and it does not change anything about the current meta. No one wants to wait that long for fun and there are those die hards who choose to run weak builds in hopes that they'll be buffed and they will be ahead of the pack when that time comes.

    Two adjusting a few numbers on abilities is almost never the solution for something that is almost completely unused, you need to add to the mechanic and possibly take away if the addition would put said ability over the top. A good go to rule for this is adding synergy to other unused abilities and they all come together and start to look that much more appealing. You might want to add some system that tracks ability use to help you out in this regard.

    Three you don't want to have to resort to nerfing the current meta into the ground to make other builds viable, nerfs are meant for things that are TOO strong and NOT because you want to make your consistently weak abilities look more powerful. It seldom works out that way, usually if the meta is nerfed enough all you're left with is an overall weak class and a vast majority of the time meta hasn't changed but just gotten weaker, and the consistently weak abilities STILL aren't being chosen.



    2) No Progression
    It speaks for itself, we like to fight and have things to prove how much we've fought or how much better we feel we are than our competition. It's in human nature, why do you think trophies and medals exist? This is proof of our accomplishment. I personally like to work towards upgrades for uniqueness, stats, and looks, in that order. If I'm a poison based thief, then I want to have things to earn that increase poison damage specifically. Not just a slight stat boost to whatever governs my poison damage, I mean like a completely unique modifier along the lines of "When you poison a player, they now do reduced damage" where the unmodified version of the poison would only damage. It would be cool if I unlocked that from killing 500 players with poison damage as the finisher. Different alternatives to that modifier like attack speed reduction, resource drain, etc, would exist but once you've spent that alternate point for the poison there's no looking back.
    My favorite part about PVP is being different and I think progression helps to do that usually. I like to have my play style rewarded by giving me more options to elaborate on the play style I already use and I don't like having someone completely mimic my style with a simple respec. I prefer when you have to walk in my shoes for a while and earn the position I've earned with my particular play style.

    In GW2 I googled a necromancer build, hopped into SPVP with every suggested item on my character, and I went from never playing it to being a pro necro that quickly. Just copy everything you've seen in the video and if you're a good player there's nothing but experience separating you from the you've copied person that's been playing the character for half a year.
    Pahzik, Hephen and Zee like this.
  13. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    Nothing but experience - that's a whole huge difference right there ;) Not to forget being an apt player in general. That can't be said for majority. It takes time and practice to play your class well, even with a cookie cutter spec/gear and whatnot.

    Also, while I do agree the majority of games are quite limited when it comes to build choices, I also think there is a whole other aspect to it. No one makes you run around with a 'standard' build, other then potentially your guild/group/team. And if that is the case, I'd swap people I play with, for a slightly more open minded lot. I personally love to experiment, I do not research any class/spec info early in the game, and sure, few months down the line, I usually reach very similar conclusions, that said, not always. It's part of the fun to explore your class/spec/builds yourself, to try to mix and match and find things that you like to play with. A venom thief may not be popular, and yes, there is a good reason for it, that said, it doesn't make playing one pointless, it's a fun build, that is way less efficient when solo, but if you're always playing in a group, especially a group you know, it can be quite lethal and immensely entertaining.

    For some reason people choose not to explore their characters, rather settle for ready made specs, and game design is secondary here. It's laziness, that often spits out a lot of bad end game players: they pick a build, run around pawning for 3 months, then something changes, and until someone else comes up with a new 'standard' solution, a lot of these people are completely lost, cos hey, they didn't even know they had ability X! And now suddenly, it's one desired in the new hot build.

    As a guild, we never force people into playing in any particular way - class advisers are there to prevent completely self and group destructive choices, however, if any one player, can provide valid arguments for his/hers choice of spec, that are outside the box, they were welcome to use it and enjoy playing the way they want to. We may never make the top 10 guilds in any particular game, but it surely doesn't stop us from successfully devouring all kinds of content.

    Just trying to demonstrate, that while design is a factor, even having one that allows for multiple competitive builds, whether pvp or pve related, does not guarantee people will not continue to search for 'the best'. Seems most can't handle choices, or maybe they can't be bothered to devote the time, dunno.

    Wildstar with the action sets, already seems to have good things going for it in respect to various builds. And I too, hope, there will be way more then just 1 or 2 optimal choices for every class and that in some way we will be forced to swap sets to react to various encounter situations. But not matter what it ends up being, it won't stop me from going through every possible combination myself first, something most people discard as a horrible idea and a waste of time :)

    For anyone that hasn't seen it

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhvvNGeHHME

    It's often the smallest of detail that differentiates a good from just an average player. Running around with the same build after having watched a video does not make players equal:) Some will always be better then others, and even within one, cookie cutter build, there is room for min/max and finding that one thing, that you and not many others do extremely well.
  14. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    I'm disturbed that you mentioned working with programmers over balancing and then later talked about what seems like an achievement that makes you quite a bit more powerful.

    But therein lies the problem of it all, PvP rapidly becomes boring with no gear, no big numbers and no specialisation -regardless of how cookie cutter it is. Yet at the same time that when it's at it's most balanced. Devs need to add incentives to get a PvP meta game going, but those same incentives skew the pvp so that gear, tier bonus's and the like all cause this never ending balance cycle.
  15. Mange

    Mange New Cupcake

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    Well experience can be huge in a game like Age of Conan but on GW2 I'd have to argue that you don't have to use a class for to long to be good at it, experience on the other side of the fence helps to. I'd been PVPing long enough to recognize what necros were doing after reading the build. Once I picked up a warrior and hammer build I was comfortable and really good with it in a couple of days, this based on tournament results. Premade and PuG. I feel the skill cap for GW2 is just set to low I guess, I could be bias but I still load it up every once in a while. The combat leaves a lot to be desired because it's to simple.

    I don't see how that is disturbing, I can't mention that I actually work on balance with devs? lol But yes pvp progression is necessary, I personally would ignore any complaints about PVP gear being "unfair". I've yet to see a mass exodus over PVP gear and usually it's just a prideful player that took a loss complaining about it, then eventually they get said PVP gear and you don't hear a peep out of them.
    Of course a balance cycle is never ending, if it was possible to perfectly balance the game that means you have a reason not to change anything and that's boring for an MMO.
  16. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    I'll take your word for it. I haven't participated in any tournaments, just basing my opinion on regular bgs. And I'm sure there are people out there, like you, who can quickly and efficiently assume a role and roll with it, dare to say that is not the case for majority. You did make a fair point, and as I said, I do hope Wildstar goes beyond and learns on the mistakes of other developers :) Anyone making a game now, would be a fool not to ;)
  17. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    The ideal situation is to have a competitive balance where it's really player skill (including character build) that makes the difference, then patches and expansions freshen that up with reworks/new abilities/ gear that affects those abilities.

    What I meant by disturbing that you thought achievements should have game-play effecting buffs, I've seen it in DCUO, the passives you buy with points from achievements really do stack up quickly and give you quite the advantage over those who haven't bothered to go and pick up those achievements. I say that as the guy who went round got the acheesements and used their magical power to smash people into the floor!
  18. Mange

    Mange New Cupcake

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    You don't mean skill points right? I had nearly the max amount I think I was 9 short when I played(71), it's something anyone could've attained and I had to PVE to get a lot those points. I would say if they didn't bother to pick up those achievements they weren't interested in competing, which is fine. I remember the points that I was missing would've taken a lot of work to get, but I didn't need them.

    On another note builds countering other builds is fine, builds shadowing other builds is not. I don't think player builds should play more of a factor than player skill ever. I do like having gameplay buffs if you've been playing for a long time I feel you deserve it, MMORPGs are all about how much you like your created character. I don't like to see a carbon copy of my character with a vast difference in experience, seems like you should have to invest more time to catch up. I guess leaderboards could cover that if needed but having a boost isn't all that bad when you feel you've earned it. It may threaten balance a bit but that's apart of the fun appeal for a MMORPG. Perfect balance for competitions is something a FPS or MOBA needs to focus on, I personally like change. But of course is just a matter of opinion. I'm more of a "how fun is the game" person rather than "can it be e-sports?"
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  19. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    I didn't say builds should be more important, I was saying that builds are part of player skill as you should really know your build and how to play it. As for strict balance, you need a fair playing field, you also need your rock paper scissor classes/builds (for example a stun + dmg build would in theory beat a basic healer build).

    Earned gear should give you a big advantage against those without but against equal opponents you should still be balanced and not a one man abilities modded to high hell army!
  20. Afrotech

    Afrotech Cupcake-About-Town

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    Question.. Has stat based gear been confirmed in WildStar?

    Did a search, but I may not be phrasing the question properly.

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