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Community Uplink - PvP Frustrations

Discussion in 'WildStar News' started by Zap-Robo, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    I for one am not going to say if something is bad until after I test it. then we could all offer feedback detailing why its bad or could be exploited etc..
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  2. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    Distracting avatar is distracting...what can I say ;)
  3. Evion

    Evion WildStar Haiku Winner 2012

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    So, some folks have been arguing for no gear progression in PvP, but I have a few concerns about that idea.

    1. What would be the reward carrot that would entice people to PvP and reward good and/or dedicated play? Is aesthetics really enough?

    2. If there's no gear progression in PvP, that means the only main gear progression is through Raids and possibly crafting. Won't people complain that they're being "forced" to raid now in order to get better gear in order to improve DPS/Survivability/Healing in PvP?
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  4. Yushi

    Yushi Cupcake

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    GW2 has proven us that, no gear progression anything (PvE or PvP) doesn't work. GW2's numbers have crumbled and the biggest reason: ''There's nothing to work towards for!''. (One of the reason why I didnt continue to play. Great game! but god boring once in the 60+ range)

    So there's no argument. No gear progression doesn't work in MMO's. People get bored of the game. So if Wildstar wants to go P2P, they need to avoid this.
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  5. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    I don't like gear progression at all but I know raiders and some of the pvpers disagree with me. However if some raiders come into pvp with gear that gives them an advantage in stats for pvp that would be bad for the game.

    also if their is gear progression in pve but not pvp then that means if I mainly pvp I would just have to stick with that since I will be playing catch up in raids.

    I am not going to talk about the PVE since I find it extremely boring

    but people left Spvp because the functions were not there. matchmaking spectator view and a lot of other things. at launch Spvp was talked about as being a esport many players made pro teams but it just took to long and they started to leave..

    WvW - we are on the bottom of the priority list. there are a lot of things that need fixing in it and a lot of improvements should be done not least of all culling. Plus the game encourages zerging and you can't really combat that especially since they capped AOE to 5 people.

    in pvp its not that there was no gear progression that was the problem.
  6. Azzurri

    Azzurri Podcaster

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    If you don't have gear progression in PvP, but PvE say goodbye to your PvPer's. You can't give one group what they want and leave the other in the cold. If they marketed this game as a PvE centric game that's one thing, but they didn't.
  7. bitbandit

    bitbandit Cupcake-About-Town

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    only wildstar doesnt have theraging "IM JUST AS GOOD AS WOW" boner that rift had. Seriously, it was wow with go faster stripes :X (having said this i LOVED the class system, and the reactive pally abilities, but thats a totally different matter)(ill same the matter of the cheap story for a totally different time :X)
  8. Jon

    Jon Cupcake

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    I am still a fan of at least verly little gear progression. And I left GW2 because they implemented a gear progression against their previous statements. You and your friends may feel different for yourself but their are also people who think different and would embrace "no gear treadmill" (which does not mean no progression at all or anything meaningfull to do) - but anyway, since Wildstar will be making use of gear progression that´s irrelevant.

    I still want to point out, that giving better players better rewards is countering the meaning of PvP. And as not all PvP in Wildstar is ELO-based that´s a problem. At least their should not be any rating requirement to get better gear - lesser points at lower rating which are needed to get the gear would be ok as better players would get the better gear faster, but not exlusive.
  9. Rogosh

    Rogosh Cupcake-About-Town

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    Id like to see gear progression of 2 types.

    1) general population gear used for the current tier of pvping.

    2) Apearance based on your current rating. Example top 3 ratings are Comet Sun and Moon.

    Comet would get a special helm and shoulder that looked better than everyone esle sun would get special cloak and gloves and moon a special weapon appearance. This would differentiat the best pvpers while keeping the gear balance in check.
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  10. gyves

    gyves Cupcake

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    What leads you to believe that this game is not PvE centric? Do you think players participating in PvP will do so in as many landscapes, dungeons, caves, etc.? Will PvPers have access to as large a breadth of items as can be gained from PvE? Level up their tradeskills and effect the world economy solely through PvP? Will their actions as much bearing on the world and story as PvE? Do you think gear gained in PvP won't be dictated by the power of gear first created for PvE? How about planting Warplots, what's the likelihood that it is not a requirement for a player to first defeat a raid boss in a strictly PvE environment to have access to to placing it on your Warplot?

    Having instanced PvP is a statement. It says "We don't want you in our game world." To that
    end they shuffle players who enjoy PvP into small rooms to combat one another. This ensures that everyone there wants to PvP at the moment as they are the one who opted to enter the sardine can. To dissuade players from participating in world PvP they give players incentives that can only be earned in instanced PvP, be it gear or other items. This in turn ends with players sitting in guarded/sheltered towns, where player confrontation does not happen, next to NPCs that queue them for matchmade games. Waiting patiently for that tiny dialog to come up telling them they can finally enter a game. How utterly immersive.

    I understand the design decision, I do. In one fell swoop you limit griefing to the most determined of people. Why should that guy attempting to complete a quest designers laboriously created be stopped by a player? However, I'd ask is this not the purpose of deploying both PvE and PvP servers? By skimping out on meaningful open world PvP you're letting go of a huge sandbox element which allows the game world to be further dictated by the players. Something that will keep players playing and is an element often looked back on fondly from yesteryear. Hell, Eve recently broke 500k subscribers and PvP is no small part of it's popularity. Wildstar's upcoming competitor Elder Scrolls Online promises to have PvP mechanics similar to what was featured in DAoC. Though I personally have not played DAoC, from what I've heard over there years it is certainly more involved than instanced PvP.

    The focus on instanced PvP in the latest Uplink Analysis was simply unnerving. I've been following Wildstar for awhile now and yesterday was the first time I said to myself, "It's likely this game is not as good as it could have been."

    I would be careful blaming GW2's fall solely on gear progression.

    I don't know about you, but I play MMOs for what they can offer me over other games. That is, a large persistent world that other players and I can influence in a myriad of ways. Barring that, I can/will/do play other competitive games that are more engaging and have more depth.

    GW2 is a game that endeavored to limit how players can interact with one another and their impact on the world as a whole. There is no open world PvP to speak of. What little PvP there is happens in instances on very limited maps. WvWvW's influence on the world simply involves a paltry mosquito bite of a buff.

    Mmm, I'm just rambling but I think you should look beyond gear progression as reward. Games have given players much more than that.
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  11. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    Maybe I'm seeing the RPG side of things wrong, but I always thought that a huge part of RPG was not just leveling up, but getting better gear. DnD has gear progression, unless I've been playing it wrong this whole time... Would you say RPGs don't involve a gear grind? Or are you wanting something that goes against the grain of RPG?
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  12. Yushi

    Yushi Cupcake

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    I'm with you, RPG's have always been about leveling and getting gear, while getting into a deep story. I never understood the people who have been trying to push out the RPG element out and more into an action game.

    MMO's have always had a core of D&D's...gear & community have always been what made MMO's great.
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  13. 3seed

    3seed Cupcake

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    In fact, one way to look at it is that gear progression is a kind of level progression--a way to add on stats and abilities separate from the inherent ones built into your character, except the progression is customizable and depends on your gear choices.

    Gear progression = level progression.

    If you look at the base math in D&D 4th edition, for example, you'll see that the adventures scale up alongside character level AND gear level. There's even an option to build in additional inherent bonuses if characters are adventuring in magic-less worlds in order to keep things fair.
  14. Shadydemise

    Shadydemise Cupcake

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    I am very confused by your post and am wondering if you can clarify it.

    First, you state that this game will most likely be PvE-centric because PvP players will not have the same amount of landscapes, dungeons, items, and impact on the story as PvE players. Next, you infer that instanced PvP is detrimental to the game for PvP players. However, isn't instanced PvP a way to give the PvP players new maps, areas, etc. that are solely for PvP?

    Also, how does the Uplink Analysis unnerve you? By focusing this single analysis on primarily instanced PvP, it does not mean that there will not be world PvP. I'm sure more information on world PvP will be announced at a later date (perhaps Pax East). I might be misunderstanding you but I feel like you're missing the point of the uplink analysis.

    On a different note, I've noticed a lot of debate about player skill in this thread. I think it's a bit hard to measure player skill without having team-based gameplay and having a large sample size. If you were to judge player skill on a 1v1 format, certain classes would dominate. Because this game has a variety of classes and roles, I'm assuming some will be better than others at certain tasks. Skill should ideally be a representation of how well a person can play their character. With this, because each role is different, I don't think you can have a universal measure for skill. I admit the ELO system is not perfect but I think it is a good tool to use to encourage challenging and fun PvP while giving an estimated skill level. I'm looking forward to hearing more about the PvP system in general and seeing how it is implemented.
  15. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    So the first concern for me was the ELO system. The second was when I read this quote and it seemed like Carbine was stating "look at our original take on CTF". Actually, while I like this style better, it is far from original. Whitefall Steppes in Rift is this exactly.

    Now I won't talk about the ELO system as gyves has already addressed my concerns (sorry for the "like" love fest, gyves). The only thing I will mention is that the PvP system with ranked matches and open matches seems to be set up already for Cross Realm Battlegrounds. If that is not the case there will be some major queues for sure. I don't have to wait for it to come out to see that.

    CC is also disconcerting. I like CC, I like the tactics and strategy it involves. I do agree that it should never lock you down so you can be dropped from max to zero health. But I would rather it just be broken by an ability or damage. Maybe with their armor system that will be the case, one can hope.

    For me the negatives focus around their lack of originality. There is a lot of copy and paste from other games. Yes, that happens with all MMOs. Yes, we don't know how they are going to be tweaked by Carbine. But the realist in me has seen this before and have seen poor results. I definitely hope I will be wrong here.

    And as I have stated in other threads I am not a fan of vertical progression through gear. But, I already knew I was losing there ;).

    The big POSITIVE: WAR PLOTS. This looks cool and original. Definitely looking forward to this.

    All in all I am not real excited about PvP in this game. But, I wasn't overly optimistic to begin with. Theme park style games usually have PvP as an aside, another bit of fluff. And let's not argue whether this is a Theme park or some sort of Hybrid. This is a Theme Park style game. Nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with how they are going to do their PvP, other than I don't think I will care for it as much as I wanted to.
  16. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    maybe the ranked is cross-releamed and the open is limited to the server population.
  17. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    Hm, not a big Rift fan, but that bg you mentioned is more like WG in WoW, each side has their own flag close to base. Nowhere near the scenario outlined in the article. I do agree with one thing, mmorpgs are not games for dedicated pvp only crowd, not by design. There are pvp only mmos out there, though since I'm not a hardcore pvper, I haven't tried any.

    Good thing is, those games still attempt to accomodate, as best as possible. Some solutions are good, some plain <REDACTED>, but it really does seem Wildstar is trying to strike a balance between the two aspects. Seperate gear progression is one of those things, giving those that are mainly interested in pvp, a feasible progression path while providing a fair ground for true competition, in form of the elo system. Until we actually see it in action, there is really little point at assuming it wil fail. As someone before me mentioned, if you have a problem with the proposed solution, it's not enough to say it won't work, try suggesting a feasible alternative, taking into consideration all aspects of play:) It is really easy to critiscize, much harder to come up with whorth while ideas that are possible to implement .
  18. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    I have played Rift, with in the last month. Not sure what you are reading as the outline of Whitehall Steppes (the reason I say this is it used to play as straight CTF but was redesigned into what it is now), but it is the exact same thing as Carbine describes.

    EDIT: Tried to find a good description of "Whitefall Steppes" (LOL whitehall) but couldn't. The Wiki and Rift site are horrible. The best description is the one Carbine uses to describe their version. That's funny.
  19. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    Fair enough, I will take your word for it, I only played Rift for a fairly short while, well, short in comparison to WoW :) In any case, if it has been implemented elsewhere, and it's working out well, all the more yay :p I do not see an issue with using good solutions from other games, ones that work, I do have a problem when someone tries to copy an idiotic one, which is too often the case :D

    I may be wrong here, but it seems to me, Carbine are trying to target a fairly specific audience. Also, gamers nowadays 'expect' working solutions from other games, to be carried over to new titles. Just look at the LFG outrage in GW2. Personally, I don't like the tool, I like doing it the hard way, Vanilla/BC WoW nostalgia here, but I can understand why people request it. Hell, they've gone beyond requesting, they created a solution in form of a website themselves.

    When creating anything of a certain genre, whether a game, or a movie, you need to follow certain guidlines. If every other line in a horror film is a joke, it's not a horror film anymore. Similarly, mmorpg is a framework, and sure, there is always room for improvement, nearly constant development, it's a 'living' product, but it doesn't mean every aspect of it must be new. Again, a company choose their target market and heads in that direction best they can.

    Bear in mind, devs are limited by much more then just there imagination - there are other factors to consider, from finances, to chosen game engine. When looking for new ways/solutions they must keep in mind the physical limits. New and innovative is great, new on an old framework can be just as good. If that wasn't the case, people would quit demanding sequels long ago. You need enough originality to make your product competitive, and that is about it. More doesn't necessarily mean better.
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  20. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    Very fair, and very true post.

    I want to say that i know I can come off as critical on a number of fronts. Basically that is just a result of an MMO gamer of 15+ years being a curmudgeon. Been there, done that and want many things to change and some things to go back to the golden age. I know I can't have that. So I will say I understand going tried and true on many features. It is definitely smart. I just have a lot of respect for what many of these guys have done in the past and I love what Carbine is trying to do now. I just feel that if any dev team could "change" things, it's these folks.

    Here's to hoping their tweaks are cool and their original stuff become game changers. I do firmly believe if many of us that are hesitant go in with an open mind I think we will be very pleased. I'm still gonna voice my hopes and desires, but I do respect Carbine and their efforts.
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