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Community Uplink - PvP Frustrations

Discussion in 'WildStar News' started by Zap-Robo, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. Karl Pedder

    Karl Pedder Cupcake-About-Town

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    The analogy between mechanical gear progression in PvP vs PvE is nonsense. PvE gear progression is scaled alongside content progression. In PvP your fighting other players where if your going to maintain that it should be about player skill then increasing a players capabilities through better gear achieves nothing, but a gear gap between players in the same bracket which undermines the whole premise of it being skill based.

    If for example you reach a ELO gear level and you don't simply gain access to that gear and there is some form of earnt currency required to buy specific items that you have to grind out then it creates a gear based inequity within an ELO bracket. This means ELO being a indication of player skill becomes a farce.
    When you first achieve said ELO gear availability level you will be potentially matched against opponents who have been at that ELO level or higher for long enough to accumulate gear that gives them an edge that isn't actually indicative of their skill vs people new to that ELO tier but of the benefits of achieving that tier earlier and maintaining it. Something that would become progressively easier to do as they accumulate gear.

    It would be akin to running a soccer league (sorry I know it's really the true football) where the winners of the first round were rewarded for winning by giving them double points for each goal they score in the next round......
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  2. gyves

    gyves Cupcake

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    Yes, instanced PvP provides a way to provide new maps to players but the it pales in comparison content created for PvE. When defeating players has little influence on the outstanding majority of the game then the title was created and designed to be PvE-centric. Moreover, instanced PvP will likely be influenced by PvE in a myriad of was but not vice versa.

    When you follow MMOs for a long time certain things are fairly predictable. Much like people guessing that housing will be instanced with it's mere mention of it, the Uplink Analysis gives us a bit of a hint to what they're planning.

    For starters, it states that the best PvP gear will be unlocked via Elo ranking. The Elo ranking is gained through "for each PvP feature (Battlegrounds, Arena, Warplot PvP)." Notice that open world PvP is not mentioned within the parenthesis. If open world PvP is more or equally meaningful that instanced PvP in Wildstar, why is it not also a venue to acquire the best PvP gear? Why should players have to participate in instanced PvP in order to acquire this gear and be more effective in open world PvP?

    Second, for matchmaking to function it must draw on a very large pool of players. We don't know server sizes as of yet but it is likely this means cross-server matchmaking. If open world PvP was as enthralling as it should be it would draw players away from instanced PvP. Less people joining instanced PvP means longer queues for those who do, which means longer time climbing the ranking ladder to get gear, and so on. Cross-server matchmaking also means not being able to foster a server community with a number of people you meet. If you do attempt create social bonds it will be via means outside of the game and thus not a part of the game world.

    Lastly, we just have to look to titles within the same genre. Other MMOs that have offered instanced PvP have largely skimped on facilitating meaningful world PvP. The only exception that I've heard is DAoC butt here is a bit of a difference there. From what I've read DAoC offered battlegrounds for players until level cap. Effectively ensuring that their world PvP was the focal point. We can rule that out for Wildstar, as Warplots has been touted as part of the elder game. I'd say it's a fair assumption that Battlegrounds and Arenas will be available at cap as well.

    So, as you say, there could be meaningful world PvP. At this moment in time I would say the forecast says chances are fairly slim. Obviously, I would absolutely love my prediction to be wrong.
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  3. Jon

    Jon Cupcake

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    I would say RPG involves... RP (I do not mean actual hardcore RP but something like immersion - progression (which does not mean gear grind which is just one (lousy) form of progression) is also a part, but not the most important to me).
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  4. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    1. For myself it's more than enough. All I need for PvP is an enemy to kill.

    2. I don't personally see a difference in being "forced" to raid or "forced" to PvP. Also, in the system I think would be best, the best gear would be crafted and player corpses could be looted for mats like NPC corpses... but this won't be that, so there's no point in demanding that. :whistling: Also:
    ESO and the Legacy of DAOC – Pt.II

    It is entirely possible to have a progression system that isn't based on gear.

    So very well stated. :speechless:
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  5. Zee

    Zee Cupcake

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    I'm reading this discussion and I understand the points brought up here.

    Since I don't anticipate WildStar PvP trying to be an eSport I don't see why there is so much worry about the ELO system.

    What will be important is to see if the PvP is actually fun, all I'm looking for in a game is having fun. Having some sort of match making (better then none) should provide for some fairly balanced matchups. If Carbine pulls of a balanced and fun PvP experience we shouldn't be worried about how they accomplish this.

    Again don't look at the WildStar PvP as a super competitive eSport. Having an MMORPG without a vertical progression gets boring quite fast (look at GW2 PvP). Don't get me wrong I like the idea of no vertical progression but from my own experience it's not working in a MMORPG.
  6. Zee

    Zee Cupcake

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    Yes but if I'm correct ESO will not have team based PvP (structured/instanced). The Open World PvP has a lot of different incentives.
  7. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    You mean there won't be instanced battlegrounds/arenas? I believe that's true, but does instanced PvP inherently demand vertical progression via gear?
  8. Zee

    Zee Cupcake

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    No it doesn't but it's easier to have no vertical progression in open world PvP, since the incentive to go back and play it repeatedly is there (resource/area control etc). Coming up with a progression/reward system in instanced PvP isn't that easy (if you want to remove vertical progression). Sure some of us like to be on top of the leader board but we have to remember that this is not a PvP only game.

    WildStar wants to cater to many types of players, it's not a strictly PvE or PvP game.
    If anyone is really hardcore into PvP I don't think this will be the game for them. In regards to open world PvP (incentivized), I think it's better to focus on one type of PvP (instanced vs open world). It seems that WildStar will go the route of instanced PvP, which is OK. I rather them keeping it updated then spread their resources on all types of PvP.
  9. Shadydemise

    Shadydemise Cupcake

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    Thanks for the clarification! I understand your point a lot clearer but have a question about world PvP. The developers have stated that they want to reward players based on their skill. Now, you've already noted some potential drawbacks to the ELO system, but what do you think about open world PvP? It has been my experience that rewards from open world PvP almost never encompass player skill. It usually comes down to who plays longest, has the most kills, etc. Is there a way to measure player skill in open world PvP?

    I personally love open world PvP and hope that there is a great system encouraging it. However, if we talk about rewarding players on their skill, I don't see open world PvP being that useful. Players with high burst that spend a ton of time ganking will shoot up to the top of the leaderboards unless I am mistaken.

    It's clear the instanced-only model for gear has its drawbacks. However, given that they are choosing to have at least some gear progression, I don't know if open-world PvP is an applicable model (unless it's all about who kills people the most). Does anyone have an idea that would reward players the best gear in an open-world setting while somewhat representing their skill (and not being biased to certain classes/roles)?
  10. Jon

    Jon Cupcake

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    I do not believe that the whole "reward for skill"-thing should be a given. People want progression. Their are also those people who want to believe that their progression is tied to their (superior to the masses) skill. But as long as their is a carrot people will get used to it. I won´t repeat the already well written problems of a skill-based progression in PvP.
    As long as the "grind" feels like fun (read: the gameplay itself is fun) a non-skill-based system would not be a problem. And just in case: running a raid dungeon multiple times is also some kind of grind as is playing a BG multiple times (which means a skill-based system does not eliminate the "grind").
  11. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    I don't, but why use a ranking system that is used in eSport games?

    Having fun is important. It's why I play. This ranking system tied to vertical progression through gear, is not my style. So for me, right now, it doesn't sound fun. I truly hope to be wrong, but...

    As to the bolded part of your quote. I understand for you it was not fun, but a lot of people are stating the same thing as if it were fact. It isn't a fact to me. I enjoy WvW and sPvP in GW2 because there is no vertical progression. It's just fun to fight and win. I don't log in to WvW to specifically say ok I have to do this to get this. I just battle and play. And for a lot of people still, that is very fun to do. Not trying to turn this into a GW2 thread, just using your example to show that non gear progression is fine.

    People, please, stop drinking the Kool-Aid...unless it's mine. ;) .
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  12. Karl Pedder

    Karl Pedder Cupcake-About-Town

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    No it isn't vertical gear "progression" in PvP is an artifice it's not meaningful in any way, PvP exclusive armour and weapons skins, mounts, titles, pets, trophy items for your house etc are all sufficient incentives saying that equipable items that have +100 of X stat are worth working towards but the same items without the stat increase aren't is just acknowledging that your one of those people who likes having an unfair advantage...... The only "advantage" with putting upward scaling stats on those weapons and armour is to satisfy OMGOZORS look at my big numbers and to create a situation that is in direct contradiction to Carbines stated desire to have PvP be skill based where gear can compensate for a players lack of skill and potentially worse needlessly inflate a skillful players capabilities even against someone who is comparably skilled just less blinged out.
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  13. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    i think people aren't understanding or aren't wanting to understand that people in your Elo bracket are going to have the same gear as you or at the very least access to the same gear as everyone else in that bracket. it's just a carrot on a stick, you're not going to be OP over others in your bracket. when you hit a new bracket you're going up against people with the same gear/access to the same gear again. It's just like when you hit a new tier of raiding, you have/have access to new gear. lots of people want that carrot on a stick to work towards, because it makes them feel more powerful than they were previously, even if they're not actually more powerful than whoever/whatever they're up against, that new gear makes them feel like it.
  14. Karl Pedder

    Karl Pedder Cupcake-About-Town

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    Only if you have immediate access to all of the gear for said bracket if there is any other kind of restriction such as a currency then there is the potential for your ELO score to be negatively and innacuratly impacted when going up against people in that bracket who have more of that gear.

    As I've said perviously maybe Carbine have the tech and the know how to factor in such gear inequities when it comes to how a match effects your ELO score. But if they don't and there is some other "Carrot" like grind hoop you have to jump through to access all the gear for your ELO bracket it makes the ELO score a farce.
  15. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    check out the following twitter conversation:

    https://twitter.com/Team_WildStar/status/310132968121331712
  16. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    While normally i don't mind having an ELO PvP system, in Wildstar (having 3 different PvP systems) this would be a different matter!

    While i whole-heartly agree with you on this one ;) I can't help thinking about the following problem it brings.

    What if someone is awesome in the PvP (battleground), but sucks in Arena. Does he has acces to high battleground gear but low arena gear? Are they gonna make different gear for those 2 (arena/battleground. 3 including warplot PvP)?
    If so it will become a GEAR GRIND FEST which I detest even more then some other PvP systems, having PvE gear + arena gear + battle ground gear + Warplot gear....:confused:

    If they don't make it with different gear: how gonna they implement differences between Arena/Battleground/Warplot ELO rating? What if you suck in battleground (you just got alot of noobs or you are awesome in 2vs2 but suck in 40vs40 it CAN happen!!!)

    I'd rather see battleground as an open PvP thing without ELO and arena/Warplots just go with ELO.

    Can people see my problem with this or do I miss something here?
  17. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    well, the problem is we don't actually know for sure if each one is going to have their own Elo rating, or their own gear. we can't argue that much over something we don't have all the details for. I'm sure Carbine is figuring these things out, and will have more info for us sooner or later...
  18. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Still i have the same question after this: If all gear got ELO requirement does this mean we need to get ELO in battleground for battleground gear, ELO in arena for Arena gear, ELO in Warplots for Warplot gear? And which gear will be better then the other?

    Will having one of the highest battleground rating means nothing if you can get better gear in Arena with lower ELO?

    Or will all ELO be the same:
    having 1k ELO in arena you can buy the same gear as having 1k ELO in Warplot or 1k ELO in Battleground?

    This above means it wouldn't be a grind-fest for gear. But still doesn't arena is more skill based then a 40v40 fight? Or......

    AAARRRGGHHHH i just hope they will make it work some way!!!!
  19. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    well...i just replied to that twitter convo asking for you :) if they'll have all different requirements, all different gear, or the same requirements and gear across PvP.
  20. Karl Pedder

    Karl Pedder Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yes I see what was said but it doesn't address the potential for needing to grind for currency rather that the probable soloution especially with the initial article's discription of how "open PvP" will be handled that they hope to resolve the issue via matchmaking which brings up it's own issues with the game population and queue times and such.

    And as Extactica is stating if there are different ELO scores for different PvP types which the article indicates there are unless they are it opens up all kinds of cans of worms. Unless you can only use the gear you unlock via your ELO when participating in that specific type of PvP your allow players to have access to gear that is potentially better than your ELO in a specific type of PvP. Contrawise if you do restrict the gear to being only usable in the type of PvP where you have the ELO that unlocked it you have just created multiple grindfests. And what about ELO gear that you gained when you had a higher ELO that has since dropped do you get to retain it or do you have to work at again to use it either way has it's flaws and again creates a matchmaking nightmare.

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