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Concerns about rotation simplicity

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Toccs, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. Toccs

    Toccs New Cupcake

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    So from what I've seen of the game so far (which I admit is limited due to the NDA) it seems like that Wildstar's classes are resoundingly similar to each other. I know the resource systems are different and the lore is different, but from what I've seen a damage rotation on a warrior won't feel a lot different than one on a stalker. Use higher damage abilities on cooldown, save interrupts, and then spam your primary attack. Similar things go for the ranged classes.

    Before you rush to explain why they are different, let me explain where my concerns come from.
    1.) The complexity of rotations has to be simplified because of the emphasis in telegraphs. It's unrealistic to expect a player to both execute a complicated damage or healing rotation effectively while dodging out of telegraphs.
    2.) The abilities of each class can't have combos with other abilities because it would pigeon hole people into choosing one set of abilities, something that the devs seem to be avoiding.

    These two things combine to make it so the biggest differences in classes is just the shape of their telegraphs. Maybe it is because I've only seen low levels. Has anyone else noticed this or can anyone provide ways this will change with higher levels?
  2. Bisqquit

    Bisqquit "That" Cupcake

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  3. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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  4. Zap-Robo

    Zap-Robo Administrator • King Cupcake

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    Things are more complex than they seem - but it comes down to timings more than it does "rotations". You have to react to what is happening in the game rather than cycling around a series of abilities.

    Rotations are not really a thing for WildStar - if you want effective combat. Combos are a thing, instead. Like saving your Stun Interrupt until a boss starts to charge up an ability to force a Moment of Opportunity then using a high damage cooldown to best effect.

    But then, do you use that combo on that charged ability, or do you just take that damage/effect to be on point for a worse charged ability moments later?

    All the while having to avoid more and more complex telegraphed attacks (which begin to track and move) as you go up in level.

    Simple? Not really!
  5. Consiliem

    Consiliem New Cupcake

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    I agree with the above, it's probably just a low level thing. However, it has been said many times by the streams that I've watched that every class has a very distinct "feel".

    And what you said about saving interrupts, using high powered attacks when you can, and using your most effective attacks-- that isn't a class rotation, that's playing an MMO well, and utilizing your abilities effectively. Whether all classes are exactly the same with different named skills, or have literally zero common mechanics, those blanket statements will always remain true as long as you're playing an MMO.
  6. Cogburn

    Cogburn Cupcake-About-Town

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    The whole "rotation" thing is kinda tossed out the window with WildStar. It's more of a priority system: choosing what single ability, or chain of them, is best for the current fight/situation. I actually like it better than rotations because it feels so much more organic.
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  7. calebrus

    calebrus Cupcake-About-Town

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    ^ this
    Skill based games don't have rotations. Instead they are proactive and reactive.
    WoW, as one example, is not a skill based game. Spending hundreds of hours gaining better muscle memory for a string of 30 different key presses doesn't mean you're a better gamer, it means you have hundreds of hours to spend learning to create muscle memory.
    In a skill based game, less really is more.
  8. Cananh

    Cananh Cupcake

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    There's also very different class mechanics which factor into this.

    Eg. an esper has to build up psi points. The more psi points (up to 5) that they build up the more powerful many of their abilities will be. But the esper can't mindlessly just always build up to 5 before popping one off. The current combat situation may demand one of those abilities sooner, eg. allies may desperately need a heal. So the esper needs to be constantly evaluating the benefit of waiting for maximum effect against immediate needs.

    Spellslingers have a different mechanic. They have a limited pool of spellcharge which regenerates over time and which they can activate and deactivate at will. While active all of their abilities are stronger. For prolonged fights they might want to always keep a little spare for emergencies but they still need to decide for which abilities (eg. cc, damage, heal) and when to apply spellcharge.

    I wouldn't say it's even kind of tossed out of the window.

    WS still has some cooldowns and with whatever LAS a player opts for they are going to find and employ optimal rotations a lot of the time and that can include movement. I've seen that in gameplay videos with developers. The same mob types move and execute attacks in a somewhat predictable fashion so combat against any two with the same LAS can be extremely similar.

    It won't be anywhere near as mindless as most MMOs though where there is a single optimal rotation pre-determined by cooldowns etc. Plus the fact we can change our LAS so easily outside of combat means that the moment one build starts to feel even remotely repetitive we can swap it for another.

    I think it's a HUGE improvement on WOW style combat but rotations are still present, albeit in a much less stinky fashion.
  9. Mellkor

    Mellkor Well-Known Cupcake

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    ...how is spending time to learn muscle memory not a skill?

    Also, Imo its totally not "just a low lvl thing" either.
  10. calebrus

    calebrus Cupcake-About-Town

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    I can remember the combination to my locker in 1995. I wouldn't call that a skill.
    Just like remembering a sequence of key presses doesn't mean you're a skilled gamer. It means you have a good memory. And that's only if you didn't use a bunch of macros.
    The decision making process is what diferentiates a good gamer from a poor one. Less skills to choose from forces you to make decisions. Nine hundred skills on your bars forces you to remember your high school locker combination.... and that's a best case scenario.
    There's a huge difference.
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  11. Mellkor

    Mellkor Well-Known Cupcake

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    I still don't agree with you.

    Really whats the difference between memory recall and logical reasoning? 2 aspects of the brain that can be "massaged" and honed into skills. Twitch based gaming however could be considered a skill as well as a gift.
  12. calebrus

    calebrus Cupcake-About-Town

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    It happens. :cry:
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  13. Toccs

    Toccs New Cupcake

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    Just to clarify, when I said rotation I didn't mean a static rotation. Rotation has become synonymous with ideal damage output for me even though it's a priority system in both WoW and Wildstar.

    In any case, the general consensus is that Wildstar is based on maximizing uptime while avoiding damage and coordinating interrupts. As Zap said, you have to focus on timings rather than rotation priorities. In terms of game design I don't have any problems with that. The problem is that the classes reactions to those timings all seem the same. No matter what class you're playing, you use an interrupt to stop a cast. No matter what class you're playing, you use a mobility spell or good position to avoid telegraphs. There's nothing to differentiate what it is actually like playing the game as a stalker or warrior.

    The only real source of differentiation between classes is resource management and attack shape. The attack shapes do vary between classes so there will at least be a little positional differences between classes. The resource management really only makes a big difference in one or two classes though. Spellslingers seem like they COULD be designed very well if you do actually end up using your innate on various abilities instead of on one clearly stronger one. Esper healing may have some dynamics to it as well that I don't know about. I can say for sure that Engineers, Stalkers, Warriors, and Medics don't feel like resources make a difference in play style.

    TLDR: The classes don't react to Zaps' timings different, and most of their resources and innates don't impact gameplay significantly, so how could they possibly play very differently?
  14. Cananh

    Cananh Cupcake

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    How would that be different from any other MMO? Remove the telegraph business and every class dishes out damage and crowd control. The healing ones heal.

    What differentiates classes in those is the same as what differentiates them in WS - the specifics of their abilities including the animations. You sound like you might not care about the visual side of things so take a good look at the build calculator. There are significant differences between classes.

    Espers have several stationary cast abilities so they're less mobile. Spellslingers have extra mobility. Medics are in the middle on mobility but have less range, can heal shields and can pull other players to them. They all have some unique tricks and if you watch them in dungeons they all play quite differently.

    I'm personally not interested in tanks but I know that engineers are ranged where the stalker and warrior are melee. I know that stalker's get some kind of damage bonus for being stealthed and maybe attacking from behind. Stalkers also have medium armour compared to warrior heavy so will take more damage when they get hit - avoiding telegraphs and use of damage avoidance / mitigation abilities will be more important for them.
  15. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    There are no ‘interrupts’; there are CCs which can be used to interrupt a telegraphed ability which can both CC the MOB and cause them to be Vulnerable for a short time, or remove interrupt armor, or just CC a MOB.

    So are you suggesting that some Classes should not have access to CC’s, or that there CC's should not have the same game mechanics, just to make their gameplay different?
    There is a partial solution for you; you can just not put a CC on some of your characters LAS bar.

    If you’re not suggesting that some classes do not have access to CCs or have different CC mechanics; then what are you suggesting?

    My first thought to such an inane comment is "No <REDACTED>ing gose.", but then I realized that this is not an absolute; heavy armor classes can stand in some reds and survive, where the lighter armors do not. I have seen this on a number of Streams.
    The more I thought about your problem the more I thought “What the <REDACTED> are you asking for; are you asking for classes that can stand in the red with impunity”, because that is the only way I could see making the telegraph system gameplay unique between the classes.

    You’re absolutely right; the heavy armor of the Warrior that allows them to stand in some red, and the stealth that allows the Stalker to attack when they want, or disappear if given the chance promotes the same type of game play.
    Note; this is sarcasm.

    How about putting forth some solutions to your problems then maybe I’ll have an idea what you’re asking for, because right now it looks to me like you want unbalanced classes that give you advantages over players that have no interest in playing those unbalanced classes.
  16. Toccs

    Toccs New Cupcake

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    Maybe you misunderstand my point. I'm saying that the interrupt aspect of the difficulty of raiding gameplay is the same for all classes. Which you just said yourself.

    Do you know what raiding is like at a progression level? Whether you're wearing heavy armor with a 50% damage reduction cooldown on top of that or you're naked, you're not supposed to take avoidable damage. Ever. When you're doing progression numbers are so tight that any excessive damage can make the difference between a wipe and a kill. Oh, and Stalker stealth doesn't prevent them from taking telegraph damage. So unless you're using it to drop aggro (which I don't know if it even does) it does nothing in a boss fight except provide a damage or resistance bonus.



    Let me be very clear about what I'm talking about. No matter what class you play, you're going to avoid telegraphs and use whatever kind of interrupts you have (whether they're CC or not, they're going to function as interrupts in raids). This does not make the game boring or bad. What I want is an additional skillset beyond telegraphs and interrupts for each class that will make playing each a unique experience. I want to have to play a Stalker for a while to be good at raiding with it even if I'm an excellent Warrior. Right now this just isn't going to happen.


    As far as solutions go: make the resources of classes more dynamic. Spellslingers look like they could be fantastic. The option to choose which abilities to empower COULD make Spellslinger priorities very interesting and skill intensive. Stalkers, Medics, Engineers, and Warriors are all just spam 'generator' abilities then use 'spender' abilities with the only exception being warriors have decay instead of direct currency for abilities. Espers I admit not having looked at, so I won't say anything about them.

    The way WoW made classes dynamic was by introducing RNG to priority systems through procs. The procs in Wildstar would have to be more general than how specific WoW ones are, but the idea is the same. A better way to do it would be to make resource management truly unique for each class and to make the resource management an actual skill rather than just a spam fest like it is for at least four of the classes at the moment.
  17. calebrus

    calebrus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Warriors, as you said, do not spam generators.
    Neither do Stalkers. Their suit power regens over time instead of with a generator.
  18. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    You do know that Wildstar has abilties, tiers and amps that introduce crit based and/or random proc based alterations to ability CD/charges, class resource mechanics, and abilities that are only usable, or have increased effect, based off of conditional factors (e.g. crit/deflect/CC status/current health). These things work differently for each class and different classes will have different priorities. I won't go much further into it as there are plenty of places in which you can view abilities, tiers, and amps for the various classes to see how these can work, and how they can create distinct playstyles for each class.
  19. Galosha

    Galosha Cupcake

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    I should agree on that - LAS erases not only boundaries between specs but even between classes (or so it seems from streams). Like you start combat with something big then spam 111 waiting for mob's cast to use CC -> Use big-boom an go back to 111.

    Yes, you get some complication of combat with avoiding telegraphs, but LAS removes all decisions from combat. If in game without LAS you can decide that this mob vulnerable to elemental you use X-skill as big-boom or if it has resistances then use Y-skill, if you see that combat would be long you can use more DOTs, if mob spawns adds - you can use aoe to kill them or use some CC (longer than 3-5 sec stun) on them and kill big mob. With WS system all this decisions you do only one time when build LAS (maybe when swapping LAS before combat).

    So after watching streams of all classes (with nda lift to 25+), it's pretty upseting to see how repetetive and similar combat look for them all. I think for me, as altoholic, it would be bigger flaw from them all.
  20. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sigh!
    If you had specified Raiding upfront, I would not be part of this discussion, because I’m one of the 65+% that the W* Devs have mentioned that don’t give a <REDACTED> about Raiding, thus I have no interest in discussing the mechanics of W* Raiding, so I guess I’m done with you.

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