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Concerns about rotation simplicity

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Toccs, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    If you are talking about just skill choice, then yes the classes are very similar 1-10, and they have to be as they all need Builder, Consumer, and CC for their first 3 skills. It is also a conscious choice to limit the skills early on so you can learn telegraphs, CC for moments of opportunity (MOOs), and the basics of your class resources/innate. The challenge of the game is more focused on positioning, aiming and timing.

    However, even with 3 skills, the classes play differently if they want to maximize their output. For example, a stalker is going to approach combat differently than a spellslinger. Take the common situation of a mob casting a standard cast time telegraph, the stalker will want to dodge through the mob and use Impale from behind (backstab) and then try to interrupt at the last second to get a MOO and also allow another backstab that will do increased damage. A spell slinger to maximize is going to just dps the mob until the last second and then gate through the mob, turn around and do burst damage (e.g. use spell surge) durring the MOO. So even with just 3 skills those classes work differently.

    As you have seen watching the streams to 25, the telegraphs progress in difficulty with their speed, shape, variability (both speed and shape), channels, disjointed telegraphs, and telegraphs being proceeded by CC of some sort. Each class will need to deal with these differently because of different durability, skills and survival techniques.
  2. Laban

    Laban Cupcake-About-Town

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    Have PvE rotations ever been anything but simple? Back when I played vanilla WoW we would occasionally do some PvE raids for gear and it was the most mind numbingly boring <REDACTED> imaginable. Stay there, press 1-2-3-4-repeat for a couple of min, move, repeat. Returned to WoW for a while in Cata and there was this PvE raid in some PvP zone that was just one boss that could drop PvP gear, and it was the same <REDACTED>.

    PvE will always be simple and boring, doesn't matter if you have 40 or 4 abilities on your bar.
  3. Cosmic Owl

    Cosmic Owl New Cupcake

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    Other Mmo's operate on a priority system as well(yup even wow). But Wildstar has never claimed to be recreating the wheel, which is probably a good thing. The main differences between Wildstar and other mmo's is that Wildstar is adding layers to the already proven formulas of Past MMO's rather then trying to be entirely original to capture its market.

    Combat feels like action combat without being entirely action combat which is good because full action combat has massive hurdles to pull off(think of action combat mmo's and how few pull it off, it never feels as tight a combat system). Hence why we have had mmo's for so long based on "tab target" spell que system as the most successful. So Wildstar just added an element of "aiming" to traditional AOE abilities. Its not action combat but it has added an extra layer to feel like you are doing more.

    They added extra layers to the spells / abilities while still keeping them simple. Ill stop here as you can think for yourself of all the ways they are doing this.

    So yeah rotation / priority systems will still in place, but there will be added depth to everything that will satisfy those who desire to look further. MMO formulas work for a reason, its good to see the ones that have refreshed rather then radical changes that end up flopping.
  4. filanwizard

    filanwizard Cupcake-About-Town

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    The big question is how important is a complex rotation anyway? You can make the game itself challenging while keeping the classes easy to get familiar with. The most important thing in game development is making sure its easy to get your feet wet in every class, Even if the long haul gets very complex.


    Priority systems are imo superior to rotations. Enh Shaman and Shadow Priest used priority systems and they worked great.

    I do imagine once the NDA is lifted we will see lots of juicy data and all the number crunching pour out since currently lots of the theorycrafting is likely of levels high enough to be under the NDA still.
  5. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    After reading through several post, I see that you have a legitimate point (was a little confused at your first post as to what you're asking), as you said you wanted to know if different classes will play very differently requiring the learning of different skills. Disclaimer! I'm just talking about general things here, observations that I've made on game play videos that are now made public, as well as skills and whatnot. Don't want to challenge the NDA!

    First of all, I still have to say that don't get your hope WAY too high, if you yourself can't even imagine what is that "ideal thing" that you'd want, chances are such things are not quite reasonable to be implemented at this time. The more you get to know something, your brain does extraction of core mechanisms (this you can't control), and not surprisingly things seem similar to each other --- we call that wisdom, or philosophy, they're higher level representations that applies to everything beneath its scope. Every class in any game, at a certain level, is identical to one another. Every game that has ever been made, at a certain level, is identical to one another. Eventually you'll get to thermodynamics laws, or the objective vs subjective debate, or the Yin and Yang, something deeply philosophical. And you'd say C'est la vie, because everything is ultimately the same --- why wouldn't it be? They all exist in the same world, so they must obey the same rules. I wrote this much to illustrate that it's not that I'm saying you might be wrong, but sometimes it's easy to lament that every flower is the same, without taking notice of the wide variety and unique beauty of each different flower. Again not that it is wrong, but it often leaves you dissatisfied and feeling lost/without direction, so why not make yourself happier by settling down and take a good look?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, I think you're thinking about "unique class mechanism" much in line with GW2, where each class has a mechanism that somewhat determines its gameplay. Mesmer gameplay (provided if you use shatter a lot and/or rely on your illusions) will be very different from a ranger (pet management/swapping, weapon swapping, etc) and different again from an elementalist (attunement Swapping). In terms of avoiding damage, some classes dodge/port out of harms way, some eat it with aegis/block, and some take it with thick armor/deathshroud/whatnot. However, you have to note that in GW2, at low levels and in fact even in easier dungeons at max level, most people can just roflmao without knowing how their class mechanism even works. Doesn't mean it's not there, just that the pressure in the game haven't pushed them into optimizing their game play yet. It'll be the same thing in Wildstar, so yes, being low level must be a reason.

    I'll just talk about the classes that I've spent the most time looking at: spellslinger, esper, engineer, and a bit of medic. Spellslinger, like you said, will be differentiated on how well they use their class mechanism, as well as HOW they use their class mechanism. If you read through some of the skill description, you see that if you opt to take one of the dot and invest into its higher tier, the normal and the empowered versions can both go onto the same target --- Need not to say how much that would influence gameplay, IF that person went for this skill. And there are good reasons to choose that dot playstyle too, as it is mobile and sustained. Alternatively you can of course empower your charged attack making yourself more mobile while dealing direct damage, etc. I won't go on, but it will definitely be a very big part of end game spellslinger gameplay I believe. Espers, you really feel the stationary glass cannon style that is unique to Espers when everyone else is literally running around without a care and you're forced to gamble on that last 0.1 second before your cast go off to dodge out of bad stuff. That "kill or be killed" mentality grows fast and for good reason, an esper that plays like a spellslinger will not do nearly as much dps as it can potentially do. The alternative style for espers would have them running to mob's face meleeing with light armor, still very gutsy if you ask me. Esper's innate allows it to gamble like no other too. Engineers who can micro-manage their bots will be at a noticeable advantage compared to their fellow engineers. It's not required, as you can always opt to not use a bot, but it is quite a difference especially if you decide to buff up your bots --- bots won't get out of telegraphs unless you order them to. Medic, if you take a look at their spells you see that they have very few direct damage, a lot of it is fields, whether if you're doing support or damage, being able to work your fields will make a very big difference. There's buff and debuff associated with them all, durations are different, your really have to know what you're doing in the next 10-20 seconds as well as have a clear mental map of friend/foe along with their future movements to be on top of the game. Now to the build-build-release model that you've talked about, it's true that in general we see this format in esper, engineer, and medic. But this is taking things to too general of a level, you can say the same thing about all the GW2 classes --- They blow things on CD based on priority queue for optimal dps, with flairs. You see, it's the flair that makes all the difference here, elementalists cycle through attunments, but keep an eye out to avoid stuck in a low dps element (staff water) for 6 seconds before a high dps element (staff fire) comes back up; mesmer not blowing phantasms up when shatter CD is over, but rather wait for the phantasm CDs to finish to minimize loss of phantasm dps. Ultimately it is still CD restricted, but it gives you a very different feel simpily from the flair. In my opinion, the difference between esper/medic/engineer is quite a lot, requires different mentality, you literally have to switch mood when you jump between these classes, or you'd feel very unprepared while you under-perform and feel confused. Esper requires guts and tunnel vision, a bit of an adrenaline rush, medic is over-the-whole-field planning/adaptation and somewhat cold strategic thinking, engineer is a lot of micro-management of 2 or more entities here-and-now. In other words, if you're a good dps medic, there's absolutely no guarantee that you'd be a good dps esper or a good dps engineer, at least not until you practiced a lot and got to know the details in their abilities. In my understanding, that's what you want, because that's certainly what I like too. Then there's healing, which is a whole other story and I won't go into it here.

    Warriors and stalkers, I didn't look at their skills and what not extensively. From what I've seen from videos though, there's definitely a different approach to things for these two classes. Stalkers rely on build up and bursting everything, and this of course has to do with the power dump nature of their resource system (as is standard for any thief/rogue/assasin class in any game). Warrior on the other hand, keeps a constant output with a ramp up at first, which again is due to the resource system. I see that when a warrior goes out of combat, the resource drops very fast, which means warriors will likely embrace the in-your-face type of game play for very practical reasons. Is that unique enough? Well, it's warriors and stalkers, if you deviate from the norm even a little too much there will be complains. It's like you can have all kinds of flavored coffee but if your shop doesn't serve the good standard double double, people will rage. Very little you can do there.
    Kainesh likes this.
  6. Kainesh

    Kainesh New Cupcake

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    ^ Zen and the Art of Appreciating Games
  7. BlueDragon18

    BlueDragon18 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I've played every class and have found them to be VERY different. Each plays like itself, and not like any other.

    Oh, by the way, the Stalker is very similar and also very different from in other games. Favorites so far are Esper and Stalker, and they don't play a bit alike.
  8. JaeKin

    JaeKin New Cupcake

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    My recent intro to psychology course would disagree about memory being a learnable skill (or at least an improvable one), but I agree with the gist of the discussion. I don't think WildStar will end up just being a rotation. If I can make a horrible comparison, I played a mage in WoW, it meant hitting a specific thing over and over without ever doing anything else. I played a rogue in WoW, it meant hitting a specific thing over and over again, with movement messing it all up. I think WildStar is going to be a game that has movement, and you occasionally something resembling a rotation in between instances of movement. Every dungeon fight I've watched streamed is just *active* which I love.

    Also, I did get to try each class briefly, and even briefly, I immediately felt a distinct difference in the classes, even the Stalker and Warrior (the two I assumed would be most similar) felt unique. The stalker was fast, and I moved (honestly, I don't think I needed to, but it was fun to just run behind the guy the whole time) constantly. The warrior I found myself more concerned about my orientation to always hit the AE. The Stalker was like 'where do I need to stand to stab this guy in the back while he's casting?'.
  9. Quawfledyffix

    Quawfledyffix New Cupcake

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    I agree with most of your points but are the pets kind of a core-ability of the engi? I hardly saw anyone using them in streams, because they said there were much better abilities. Don't know if they have a big influence on their gameplay..

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