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Cross server dungeon finder confirmed

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by John, Mar 13, 2013.

  1. Dnevnoy

    Dnevnoy Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd like to start first with a basic premise of this discussion which is: does cross server LFD lead to less developed communities and less emergent gameplay?

    From my experience the answer to this first question is quite clearly yes becuase it effects the community both in and outside of dungeons.

    - Knowing you will almost certianly never see the players you are playing with again there is no incentive to socialise.
    - Knowing you are unlikley to do dungeons with people you see in the "world" there is less incentive to strike up conversations and cooperate while questing.
    - Now that you do not have any meaningful repeat interactions with other players the game has no context and by extention your progress in the game is essentially meaningless.

    Now one thing that has been brought up is: "but I can add people (X-server and native server) to a friends list and in that way develop relationships".

    My response would be that this does absolutely nothing to build a sense of community across the server or create emergent gameplay. The server is now just segmented into small groups of friends. The point of an MMO should be repeat interactions with other players which enrich the world. It is not solely about making friends - is about giving the world context.

    The second question is: Do the benefits of X-realm LFG outweigh the costs to the community?

    In the interests of not making this post too long I won't go into these arguments. My overally point though (and maybe this is obvious) is that it think its pretty clear that if your only goal was to create a great community you would absolutely not implement a X-Realm LFD tool. The debate is about the extent to which you sacrifice the community and sense of belonging to a world to decrease que times.

    In my opinion MMOs continue to get this balance wrong, resulting in shallow games that cannot hold long term subscribers.
    Vembumees likes this.
  2. ImmortalExile

    ImmortalExile Cupcake-About-Town

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    I leveled from 15-60 on a Goblin Priest in just six days doing anywhere from 1-5 dungeons a day. I only did it this way because the quest zones were so empty it felt like a waste of time to quest. Besides the fact it was like my 20th time leveling in Azshara and Ashenvale.

    I never liked the system to a degree because I really did prefer trying to find a local group on the server, with people that I felt I knew a little better. If a reputation system was implemented, I'd feel a lot better. I don't like the groups that don't talk, don't really do anything but follow the leader, half the time everyone else thinks they're the leader, and as a healer, more often than not I'd just say f*** it and have to let one or two people die.
  3. Paterk

    Paterk Cupcake-About-Town

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    Must have worked through my nervous breakdowns on the three toons I leveled to 70 this way then.
  4. Batzorig

    Batzorig Cupcake-About-Town

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    First post on here, sorry if it's a mess, but trying to gather my thoughts on the subject 'cause I think it's an interesting topic.

    There seem to be two schools of thought while running dungeons in MMORPGS: The social folks, and the 'Get-it-Done'-ers. My problem with the social-side of the argument is that not including a LFG tool hurts those who just want to get it done by forcing them to sit in a chat channel spamming their role, with no guarantee of ever getting anything done. That really sucks for them.

    On the other side, if you include a LFG tool, social folks can still form their own groups and run dungeons. Admittedly, the pool of players they could pull from would be smaller than it would without the LFG tool, but that's only because of the players forced into the social aspect by the lack of any alternative. So ultimately, no LFG would feel like a boon for social players at the expense of non-social players, while having a LFG tool doesn't prevent the social players from doing things their way (though they are now limited by the much smaller pool of social players on their server).

    The other topic I wanted to bring up is difficulty. I think if a Cross-server LFG tool assumes no strategy will be required, then I will be the first to step up and say that's a bad thing. If dungeons are intentionally easy so that any group can manage them after being LFG'd, that's a problem. But, I don't think it has to be that way. Especially when you take into consideration the telegraph system of Wildstar, it should be easier to make things tough and strategic without forcing tons of pre-organization and requiring voice-chatting. Everyone who plays will be used to 'Red stuff on ground is bad, green stuff on ground is good', even if they've never run a dungeon before. Now, looking up how a fight works may still help, but depending on how dungeon bosses work, it may not be a requirement to doing a fight. Red circle on the ground = bad! You won't have to explain that with every new group you get.

    Anyways, after all I've seen, read, and heard about the guys putting Wildstar together, they seem to have a pretty strong focus on presenting challenges to their players, so I'm pretty confident there will at least be some regular group-sized dungeons that will be really tough.

    I didn't bring up the overall community aspects related to X-Server LFG because it seems to have been discussed to death here, and I don't have anything new to add on that front. Cheers.
  5. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    That is my observation too. Dungeons while levelling (in WoW) is only really good once because it contains quests the first time, subsequent runs are boring and far less xp - unless you have already done the quests 9 times on alts then repeating the same dungeon is actually not intirely as revolting. Both quests and dungeons breeds contempt after too much familiarity though, at least for me.

    After the first run through a dungeon doing other content is good xp too - unless they require those 10 minutes twiddling your thumbs while flying or sailing for the 1000 time from one place to another, something one for some odd reason never get better at, it is really odd.

    Naturally taking out the instant port to the dungeons will make them a less likely levelling tool.

    The solution for people not knowing where the dungeon are is not to require walking there, that idea just make dungeons an exclusive perk for those with hours on their hand to wait for group members getting their hineys there - the easy way to make sure people know where an instance is to be found, is to require having been to the entrance a some point before being able to queue for the dungeon.

    As for immersion ... let's talk about never seeing the same bosses again in the same dungeon before taking the talk about removing a simple convenience feature rather than improving on it, shall we?
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  6. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    As much merit there is in that statement, I wouldn't say it should directly correlate. We had a rather fun little conversation about this kind of thing on IRC earlier which brought up a lot of interesting thoughts about the topic. I'd get into detail but I feel it's off topic and is interesting and broad enough to warrant to be the topic of the next weekly thread I make. So do join in when I post it. :D
  7. Renissara

    Renissara New Cupcake

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    As someone who plays on a dead WoW server, I have to say I'm all for a cross-realm LFG even knowing the risks it poses to sociability in game. Server populations don't stay stable; people will inevitably flock to some and leave the others in the cold. Games that refuse to implement cross-server options reduce their low-population servers to a slow decline as people realize the way to see content before the inevitable server merge is to switch to a high-population server.

    That being said, you could have a LFG tool very similar to WoW's openly despised one and still integrate social incentives...

    Imagine at the end of every LFG dungeon you were given a choice to rate every player in the run positive, neutral, or negative. Then, in the future, if you were ever ahead of them in the queue, the game would look at your former rating of them:

    • If you had rated them positively, they would be placed in your group, enabling that player to skip ahead in the queue to join your group.
    • If you had rated them neutrally, the game would do nothing.
    • If you had rated them negatively, the game would avoid placing them in your group ever again. If by random chance the person you rated negatively was at the same place in the queue as you, the game would bump that person back one spot to avoid placing you in the same group.
    These players' ratings of you would have no effect (unless of course they were ever higher in the queue than you). You could not change your queue times by giving every single person you run with a good rating; the only thing that affects your queue position is another player's rating of you. You could greatly improve your queue times by being friendly and skilled enough that people want to have you in their groups. Likewise if you are unpleasant enough that you begin to gather a large number of negative ratings you might notice your queue times becoming longer, although you might be able to overcome that if you start changing your behavior enough to get positive ratings.
    Anyway, that's just one example that comes to mind of a way to have a functioning cross-realm LFG tool while still incentivizing sociability in dungeons.
    SiegaPlays likes this.
  8. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Interesting. We have talked about rating partymembers, but more as some official ranking, and one of the misfires with that was that a group of friends could abuse it by voting each other up in the ranks, so any requirements pertaining those social grouping ranks would in many cases not be about deserving it, but about having friends/guildies willing to boost a rank.

    Your idea looks better, because it only effects the person who has taken a dislike to someone else.

    It could be done simpler for avoiding jerks, just get the option to ignore one or more party members, especially when the group splits up/kicks/a player leaves the group. There is not always time to do it in the actual group. People on ignore are not grouped together again.

    I am thinking the problems with any sort of priority queue is technical - how much server power should be delegated to power how complex a filtering system.
  9. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    I have a hatred of Dungeon Finders, purely because they destroyed a lot of internal server community. However, now I've been away from WoW for a long while I think the Dungeon finder suffered one major problem with it's implementation, that is that it was implemented during an ongoing period of dungeon nerfs but also after a solid two expansions - when all that mid level content was deserted and it did take hours to even attempt a pug group.

    It ruined the fun of dungeons as there was no more drama to get it started (though that's only fun in hindsight) but then by the time it came out they were so easy you literally Q'd, speed ran the instance not once stopping for a mb, got to the end with your free loot bag and then Q for the next.

    If the dungeon difficulty is so that instances take a solid hour or more and that even a group that is X-shard has communicate and work together to complete it then I think it will be just fine :).

    All that being said, some of the best dungeoneering times were in the evenings spent running the big 2-3 hour dungeons were there were so many different bosses that everyone tended to get something out of it :)
  10. Kezzo

    Kezzo New Cupcake

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    First, sorry for the late reply.
    Yes, i meant a source which proves that there'll be a X-server LFG. Im steadily reading the whole thread, but couldn't find a source, so i thought it would be good to mention.
  11. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    "FateFlyer: Quick question: What kind of dungeon finder are you planning on implementing in WildStar? Will it be similar to World of Warcraft's, and will it match you with players across multiple servers or just with others on your own server?

    CRB_Bardic: We will have a dungeon finder available for Wildstar at launch! It will match you with players across multiple servers."

    that was one of the questions asked at the AMAA. CRB_Bardic is one of the Carbine peeps.

    complied on the following thread/post http://wildstar-central.com/index.php?threads/combat-pvp-reddit-amaa-on-wednesday.1604/#post-26821
    Kezzo likes this.
  12. Honoracy

    Honoracy Cupcake-About-Town

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    The LFD was something that as needed in MMORPGS. Yes I miss the old days running to BRM and fighting people at the instance portal. I remember they added summoning stones to make it easier to get the group to the instance, but it was not the fix players really needed. LFD was the exact thing that was keeping people from progressing faster and saving time. I thought however LFR was pretty dumb and they went to far with that, but I'm sure carbine can easily look back at all the good points and <REDACTED> points wow hit and perfect them (or any game for that matter). If you're in a guild and actually a part of the community in that guild you will find a group of friends you will always want to run with and maybe you could just pick up an extra from chat, friends list or even use LFD to fill the gaps in. When I was raiding hardcore I always ran with my guild and only used LFD when I was playing at odd ball hours of the night. This is where I really enjoyed LFD because I could play with other people who were up late or wanting to run a dungeon instead of having no one to run with because its 3am on my server.
  13. Dnevnoy

    Dnevnoy Cupcake-About-Town

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    This system is fine. I'd just like to point out I don't think it solves the main problem with X-server LFG which is feeling disconnected from the world you are playing in. Sure you might end up playing with better players but essentially the game world has still become a lobby you wait in until you run a dungeon.

    For me the solutions/ compromises if you are going to have a X-server LFG are:

    -Make it a relatively small number of servers, enough to decrease que times but not enough that you never group with the same people twice.
    -Make the matchmaking heavily favour putting together groups from the same server. It should only create X-server groups when que times are becoming excessive.
    -Create lots of the other reasons to socialise during other play on the server (seems to be the route they are going)
    - Minimise the other problems with dungeon finders. Don't have instant teleporting to dungeons. I would be fine if its still very easy to get to the dugeons - say you get access to a teleport near the dungeon once you have completed it - but its still important players make some effort to get to the location and not be magically teleported for no reason.
  14. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Agh. I HATE the Dungeonfinder in World of Warcraft and I hate random queues within League of Legends.

    They make the game feel like the real world instead of a group of players and kinda kills the purpose of servers being split apart.

    Everyone can "troll", ninjaloot or just flame because you'll never see these people again.
    You'll never know the people you play with and can't say "Ah, he's from the guild XYZ from our Server, these guys are usually pretty nice!"

    You don't have any reputation to lose and that makes people abuse their anonimity. I hate it.
    Also: NO ONE knows where a dungeon's actually located. You can just stand in a city and use the dungeonfinder until you're maxlevel. That's retarded and sadly...Usually the fastest way. I won't use it unless I've never seen the dungeon before and don't have enough people online.

    ...The only good thing are the low waiting times, except you're a dd. :I
  15. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    As a social experiment they could create a server where the LFD tool is disabled (I call it an LFD tool, as not all LFG tools have to be asocial one button wonders)... it would be interesting to then compare the community on this server with that of others over several months.

    It will probably never happen and may be a bit skewed due to more sociable players being attracted to such a server, but it would be interesting none the less.
  16. FlamingRuby

    FlamingRuby Cupcake-About-Town

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    I said it many times in the past that i really hate LFG tool.
    In my opinion is not only the fact that ruins communities.You can ask in chat to form a group and then use the LFG tool or ask in your guild like all major guilds do so the run is faster and smoother.Its the fact that the dungeons are becoming easier and easier and also the fact that exploration is gone.Even by traveling to the dungeon you are outside the world.Meaning that you see players and players see you.Its a really important aspect at MMROPG's.It was something i never felt at Swtor because worlds except starting zones were completely empty.(For an other reason but they were).
    If dungeons are not easy and require players to have tactics and work together i think i will be fine.I don't want to see again a faceroll dungeon and the excuse will be:''Dungeons are open to the public and must be so easy for everyone to complete''
    Some people mentioned here that LFG implemented when dungeons were already easy.That is true!It is also true tho that the same community that was asking for dungeons nerfs was the same community that demanded the LFG tool.It was the same community that was crying about free epics and easy easy to obtain mounts,pets and everything.
    Lets face it.It is the community that demands an LFG tool.And carbine just listen to the community.As much as i don't like that decision i have to say that i understand them.And for that i approve their decision.
    The only think that i dont approve is flying mounts even if they fit in the lore of the game perfectly.But its ok again.
    Its up to us to make the game awesome and not ruin it.
    If we don't demand free epics and easy dungeons hopefully the LFG tool will be a tool and not a way to failure and easiness!

    At last i hope with LFG implemented Carbine will find some reasons to make us travel to the world and not sit in a town spamming LFG.And i don't mean farming,or questing.

    Edit:And please stop that madness with Normal/heroic dungeons.A dungeon has to have ONE level.Not two!
  17. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    Depends what you mean by normal / heroic.. if normal is on the way to level cap and heroic is the level cap version then that, IMO, is a very good thing (re-seeing old content + more content at cap). But yeah, if normal and heroic are both the same level that's not good.
  18. FlamingRuby

    FlamingRuby Cupcake-About-Town

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    I mean both.
    But lets say that if you want to remake the dungeons that you were doing at leveling its ok.Its not ok at all to see raids and end game dungeons to have normal/heroic mode.Its just retarded.And the problem is that they do so because they don't want to make new content also to give free loot from normal!
    I hope that they will not lower the number of dungeons at max level by just adding heroic modes of normal ones!
  19. Corinthar

    Corinthar Cupcake

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    It occurs to me, suddenly, that there is a easy way to solve the most popular fear when it comes to LFD:

    Only allow players to use it for any given 'dungeon' once they have successfully completed it once without the aid of LFD. - Whadyathink?
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  20. Shaigh

    Shaigh Cupcake

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    Dungeons have two modes, one for levelling, one for endgame, raids only have one mode.

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