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Econ Devblog - Circuit Board Crafting

Discussion in 'WildStar News' started by Zap-Robo, Apr 5, 2013.

  1. Afrotech

    Afrotech Cupcake-About-Town

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    Some sort of cosmetic particle effect chip has been a request and is a good idea.

    Welcome to the party. :)
  2. Cogburn

    Cogburn Cupcake-About-Town

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    Seeing an Accessory slot would be nice, but not in the way most games implement it. I mean something like Ragnarok Onlines headgear, having a Cigar or a rope around your arm or maybe even a book/codex with a strap that goes over your shoulder. Something that enhances aesthetics as well as giving a boost to a stat or two.
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  3. Wayne Butler

    Wayne Butler New Cupcake

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    I love these systems. Anything that allows more customization creates greater depth and intrigue which extends game life and skill ceilings. I hope this will also extend the ability of players to really customize their class to their own liking.
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  4. Afrotech

    Afrotech Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree. I think this reveal was intended to serve a dual purpose of not only mining creative ideas for slots, but also feeling out the community to potentially refine the system based on feedback.

    I'm really impressed how Carbine engages the community.
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  5. Zyfreit

    Zyfreit Cupcake

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    I am very excited by this system and hope that it continues to be refined without being simplified. The idea of various grades of power cells be used to power you items, and chips that convert that power into stats, abilities, etc. is pretty interesting.

    It will be fun to find out the types of stats, skills, effects that can be found on these chips. I hope the system is balanced enough that your "BiS" is not "this is the exact setup, you must have X of chip A, Y of chip B, etc." but rather a "you need these stats, as much as you can get, no one stat is more important, so 5 chip A and 3 chip B is as good as 2 chip A and 6 chip B".

    Until we learn more about how loot works we can't say how the random factor and desire for extracting certain chips will affect game experience. However, I do think it is good to express the concerns about this mod design based on existing loot systems, as Carbine seems to be doing a good job of listening to their fan base.
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  6. Tylan

    Tylan New Cupcake

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    I like the idea of implants and gadgets, but the dev team has emphasized the use of a communicator for quest turn-ins and such. That would be the perfect type of item to get a new slot. Since it is an integral part of gameplay the character would start with one of course, sort of how characters always start with default underwear. But later on new, better comms could be found that have their own stats and visual appearance like earpieces or wrist communicators or shoulder mounted walkie talkie type things like the police use.
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  7. Niels

    Niels New Cupcake

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    Personally I'm just hoping for "Interesting" item effects.

    Ofcourse there will always be the stats and stuff you really need (dexterity or strenght or whatever, crit etc... The things we know),
    but what I'm on about is "gadgety" stuff that works well with certain talents/spells a character has.
    Chance to poison is a good example, I want to see allot more allong those lines.

    In most MMO's there's ussually some sort of trinket slot, but they're ussually pretty damn lame tbh. Its always "increase attack power by xxx" or something allong those lines.

    I'd love to see stuff like chance to stealth when struck by certain big hitters,
    massive meteors falling on your target when you set them on fire,
    tiny little minions spawning for a short amount of time to aid you in combat,
    being able to jump higher for a little while,
    disguize yourself as the enemy for a bit,
    etc...

    I've been staring at mr. rockface puffing his cigar for a bit now. Wouldn't it be cool if his sigar was in an actual itemslot? Maybe he could have different cigars with different properties!
    Some could go BOOM when he flicks them, others could create a smokescreen or just poke someones eye.
    Endless possibilities.

    Pherhaps different classes or races could have there own unique itemslot or two.
    Cigars, pistol holsters, ropes, monocles? personal inflatible horse, ...
  8. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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    Cool so I just read the blog post and read through this thread. A couple things: first of all, you guys are awesome. Friendly discussion even among those that disagree? Freaking awesome. Second! To the fun and interesting parts... funteresting? Sure.

    First, I want to give y'all my two cents on the power system, and why I think it's going to be a lot more interesting than just "plug in your best dudes and go". The reason for this is tucked away casually in the description of Ability Relay Chips. It's going to create an interesting puzzle to figure out exactly HOW much power to use before plugging in an ARC in a terminating socket to boost the most amount of power out of an item while still using ability chips, set chips, and item challenge chips... all of which still take power to use.

    Going from this, there is also a really exciting possibility of some really interesting schematics -- high end items with multiple power sources, long chains of chip slots and locked chips that may frustrate your perfect chip set. How great will it be to have to work within the constraints of the schematic presented that won't always be the same? To me, that's really exciting.

    And going back to power sources, I would love to see different items only accepting certain sizes of amps. I imagine we'll see something like this anyway, but let's say that there are 2 power amp slots on a sword; one of them is for a small circuit that leads to an ability chip, and thus can only take a smaller power source (let's say 250 power), but then there is another much larger circuit that connects, like, 6 different chip slots, and in this amp slot, you can plug in a 750 power amp, which leads me to the last thing I want to talk about...

    Overclocked power amps! So let's say you have the dual amp slots that we used before (250 & 750) and that it restricted you from plugging in anything larger. BUT! There is a way around it. And that is by overclocking your chips! Now, in my mind, this would do two things. It would give your circuits more potential, and it would also beef up those ability chips by strengthening the modifiers (an ability chip that provides a (x%) chance on hit to do (x) damage is augmented by a percentage-based overclocked (v%) amp, allowing ability chip to do (x%*v%) chance to do (x+v%) damage.... if that makes sense). What it will ALSO do however is that because there is now more power surging through that item than there is supposed to, the item may deteriorate faster, taking more damage on deaths and use. Similarly, you could make it so that overclocking amps also takes away other vital base stats of an item such as armor rating, meaning that overclocking is good for dps/healers, but definitely not wanted for tank classes. This could present an interesting give-and-take between how you modify your weapons/armors and how you get ready for elder game content.
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  9. Oshi

    Oshi New Cupcake

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    Okay, so this post is going to based on a couple of assumptions, none of which are neccessarily correct, so take it with a grain of sand. The assumptions are:
    • Loot dropping is random and open for all (e.g. as it is in WoW)
    • There are items which can be traded
    • The sockets are visible before picking up the item (you better hope they are, if the first and second point are true)
    I'm very worried about this system, and that's coming from someone who loves both customisation and min-maxing. The problem with saying "We've made it really hard for you to get the optimum gear" is that the optimum still exists, it's just ridiculously hard to get. At the end of the day, depending on your class and gear level, you will want certain core stats to perform well in your role in a group environment, and not having those stats (whether they be movement speed, burst damage, sustained damage, survivability, whatever) makes you a less useful character than someone else.
    As many things as WoW does wrong, something they eventually got right was the primary / secondary stat system, which ensured that items weren't ever flat out bad by giving them a flat amount of str / int / agility and stamina based solely on item level, in conjunction with a smattering of secondary stats. This allows you to (in theory) pick the secondary stats you wanted while maintaining effectiveness by still having your core stats.
    My healing shaman preferred crit to spirit and haste, iirc. This is a very small difference that let me express myself, but is a great building point, if you consider a system with more options for secondary stats / abilities from items.
    In my opinion, true customisation is only possible when the relative strengths and benefits are entirely debatable (this is the takeaway point from the entire post, btw), wheras this approach says to me that "we know you want these stats, we're just not giving them to you." Problems I forsee arising from this:
    • Newer players not being able to tell at a glance whether or not an item is bad for them, and not being able to immediately grasp the worth or worthlessness of an item (see below)
    • Vastly varying price / worth of items depending on how "perfect" they are. For example, I logged into Diablo 3 the other day, and noted that one legendary had prices varying from tens of thousands to multiple millions of golds
    • Loot drama arising from people wanting items, versus people wanting an item to destroy it for its chip. This would be especially bad in PuG situations, where the people you play with have no vested interest in the massive upgrade an item represents for you, as compared to the chip they want to upgrade their existing gear
    • Loot drama arising from people wanting to get a sllightly better version of their current item while people in the party just need the item in the first place (again, worse in PuGs)
    • Possibility for loot councils to be amazingly bad: Not just giving one person all the gear for their class, but also gear from other classes to break down for chips
    • Artificially increased grind by forcing you to find the same item multiple times to get what you're looking for, and all the frustration that comes with that
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  10. Zyfreit

    Zyfreit Cupcake

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    Oshi, great post. I appreciate you listing your assumptions up front, it helps set the context of the argument. I see the point of your argument, and based on those assumptions I too would be worried. I don't think we will see the inflated prices like Diablo 3 because I don't think the stat distribution system is going to be so RNG.

    Diablo stat distribution is based off of a table of prefixes, suffixes, and set stat ranges. Any given legendary will have (entering the land of imaginary examples) 3 standard stats with highly variable ranges, then 4 random stats, again with highly variable ranges. So you end up with:

    Kick Ass Axe of Some Dead Guy Who is Supposed to be Cool
    Min Dmg (300-600)
    Max Dmg (1400-1550)
    Attack Speed 1.4
    Str (100-350)
    Vit (200-400)
    %Dmg (50-340)
    Random 1
    Random 2
    Random 3
    Random 4

    Those billion gold legendaries have the set stats at the high end of the possible ranges, mixed with the ideal/perfect random stats, mods, skills.

    With the system Carbine has given us just a glimpse at, I would expect BoE items with the "ideal" locked random stat to be worth more, but not on the exaggerated scale of Diablo 3. Until we learn what stats will be on these random locked chips (skills, abilities, primary stats, or secondary stats) we are left worrying, hoping, and voicing our concerns.

    Once again, great post Oshi.
  11. Haversham

    Haversham Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is why I'm afraid of this this system. D3 just had too much variability in stat allocations ... to the point that some pieces were just unusable.
  12. Zyfreit

    Zyfreit Cupcake

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    I am having difficulty seeing your point. What is it about the circuit system that makes you think it will be anything like D3? From what I can see, the only thing you won't have control over is the one random chip in an item. That leaves everything else up to you to figure out how to best distribute your power.

    To follow on with my previous thoughts about the system, I think it's a rather great design. It sounds like items will have a base power supply (based on ilvl if you will humor me), and you can mod that with an additional power amp (increasing the ilvl). You take that total power supply (stat pool), and using your circuit board decide how you want to allocate it across primary stats/procs/secondary stats. I do like how stat chips will only part of the supply if in a series with other chips, or use it all if at the terminus. Looks like I can choose the balance between my stats, making my weapon either crit heavy or agility heavy based off of differing placement of the same chips.

    I don't expect anything like D3. I expect it to be more like SWTORs current state, but more detailed, with more control, not quite pre nerf, but close. It looks like a system that is simple to use but gives complex options.

    Edit: Grammar is hard.
  13. Farmerbob

    Farmerbob New Cupcake

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    This is in a crafting thread but character design directly impacts how players craft, so I wanted to say this here and see what folks think.

    One of the main problems that most games have with "cookie cutter" item crafting is that character statistics are weighted heavily for each role. You end up with cookie cutter crafting because you have cookie cutter statistic requirements.

    If every stat has a strong utility for every class, then there won't be cookie cutter anything.

    For Example: If your tank gets bonuses to their ability to taunt or generate critical hits based on intelligence, then having intelligence bonuses on tank gear can make sense. Your DPS classes, however, aren't likely to appreciate generating extra aggression due to having a higher intelligence. Maybe everyone gets a better crit chance on their attack abilities with bonus intelligence, but tanks taunt better, melee dps evade better, caster dps generate less aggro, and healers might use less mana for healing.

    If every statistic matters for every class, then cookie cutter characters and crafting really can't exist.

    This would require a lot of incremental adjustment of stats by the dev team. If you see that 90% of all tanks have lots of extra stamina and almost none of them have extra dexterity, well, the players obviously don't think the benefits for dexterity are good enough on tanks and dexterity for tanks needs some extra buffing.

    This ties into crafting because it allows more variable crafting to better match the playstyle of individuals. There are lots of games where you can get any type of gear with intelligence on it, but there are few games where intelligence is universally useful for all characters.
  14. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    Okay, but does the fact that each class can do more than one role influence this system? A Stalker can be DPS or Tank, so how do you determine whether Intelligence gives him more crit or a better taunt?
  15. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    @above
    differrent abilities with different scalings, or passive abilities you can skill
  16. Farmerbob

    Farmerbob New Cupcake

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    The way I was imagining it, there would be a overall function across all classes for each statistic. For example, Everyone gets better crit chances for having higher intelligence. However every class would also get a useful secondary function for every stat as well. Since stalker roles are generally either melee DPS or evasion tank, giving a bonus to evasion for high intelligence for all stalkers might be useful. Now, if it were found that DPS stalkers were not using intelligence gear for evasion because if they play their class right in a group they don't get hit much, it might be a good idea to implement an aggro reducing effect for stalkers based on intelligence in addition to the evasion bonus.

    But... this raises the question as to whether or not getting both better evasion and less aggro generation would be desired by an evasion tank...

    This is where gear crafting fits in. The secondary effects for stats might be gear related.

    Let's say that everyone gets bonus critical chances for having high intelligence, but stalkers will also have access to gear made with crafting components with bonuses for either evasion or for aggro reduction, with the better gear made available with higher intelligence. The critical bonus is definitely attractive to just about everyone, Evasion tanks might get some sort of intelligence-based evasion gear, and DPS melee might get some sort of aggro reduction gear.

    Crafting should help to allow players to differentiate themselves usefully, not reinforce a shallow channel of character development. But in order to do that, the characters themselves need the building blocks to make use of all stats.
  17. Draegan

    Draegan Cupcake

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    It's hard to say now, and I may be reading into this a bit much; but I see this random aspect to be a big part of gear. The blog said that they don't plan on making it easy for people to get the best gear easily. Essentially they don't want people playing off spreadsheet lists where they list the best gear in order and if you're the min maxer reading it, you go showing with that list.

    This way you worry about playing the game and hoping you get something good, then using this system making it the best piece of gear you can.

    Anyway, that's how I read it.
  18. Jynetik

    Jynetik "That" Cupcake

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    Socks... really? I think you mean Draken Horn Warmers.

    [​IMG]

    You Exiles are truly unworthy of further existence in this universe. You steal advanced Dominion technology and attempt to use it to further your nefarious schemes but you seem utterly incapable of using it correctly. You stole our Draken Horn Warmers and somehow convinced yourselves (likely with the aid of copious amounts of illicit substances) that they are instead called "Socks", and that they are to be worn on ones feet, how preposterous. You wear these "socks" around totally unaware of how utterly foolish you look and slap yourselves on the backs confident in your ability to use our technology.

    Death cannot come swiftly enough for you vermin, your sad and misguided attempts to be taken seriously only further seal your fate. So go ahead, stomp around in your "socks", the Dominion will be upon you shortly, nothing can save you now.

    --- --- ---​

    But in all seriousness I am in favor of any additional item slots that would have some kind of cosmetic feature. I think all of the major body parts (and some of the minor ones) are already taken up, so my best guess would be to go for layers. Things like a small mechanical panel that can be attached to a chest piece, or an upper-body belt that compliments shoulder armor, or some kind of back-piece that looks like a small power generator etc... You could also experiment with things like tattoos, glowing runes, glowing auras around parts of your character, floating particles that orbit you etc...

    I love the sound of the CBC it seems like it will add quite a bit of depth to a system that is traditionally flat and stale in most MMOs.
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  19. Dragnog

    Dragnog Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is more the direction that I would want them to go in of course I would want to take it further. I would lie to see them play around with the idea of tolerances and clean power.

    So the larger the power supply the more fluctuation the power supply has (because who says this is DC electricity that is going through the circuit or even electricity at all?) Also each power supply has a tolerance level in how much power it actually generates.

    When you add resistance to the circuit it will smooth out the fluctuation. By default each circuit has a base resistance (which is variable between two levels of tolerance), plus you can also have resistors that will further smooth out the fluctuation further.

    Each component has a fluctuation tolerance (the rarer the chip, the lower the tolerance) so what becomes really important is the length of chain so that you can smooth out the signal going to you ultra rare components or sacrifice a slot to put in a resistor.

    I would also like more of a risk involved here. When you turn the circuit on for the first time power courses through it depending on how you have built the circuit there is a percentage risk that it will blow a component or that it will not have enough power even to run the whole thing.

    So then you end up with questions like: I can run this really large power supply but risk blowing the circuit: I could run two smaller power supplies instead or put a resistor in a slot. In both cases you are sacrificing a slot where you can not put something else.

    What really becomes important is the length of chain on the circuit board because it means that you use more of the built in resistance of the circuit. This is also where the other crafting system comes into it where you add the same sort of risk. You can add a slot to a board but is has a chance of destroying the board the longer the chain is.
  20. InnocentCivilian

    InnocentCivilian "That" Cupcake

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    Just wanted to say thanks for making getting dressed in the morning a little more exciting. :p

    And awesome art! She looks so demure, you'd almost forget that killing things is what she does for fun. Almost. >__>
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