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Elder Game Itemization Goals

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 23, 2013.

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  1. CRB_Gortok

    CRB_Gortok Carbine Econ Designer

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    Here is what I would like to see for Elder Game:
    • Players have to make interesting choices about dropped items.
      • What stats come on these vary, although the total value is generally about the same.
      • Depending on the variation, some of these items are better for one spec or another.
    • Crafting is Viable in the Elder Game, but not for every slot at every tier.
      • Crafters have meaningful process of advancing their craft
        • Some dropped or purchased recipes are available to supplement most slots at every tier. These are on the low end of the spectrum of items for that tier, but still better than the previous tier.
        • There is also a systemized approach to improving certain Elder Game schematics, so that they eventually do become competitve with the best drops or better, but not for every slot at every tier.
      • Crafters have a meaninful way of specializing and finding their own niche.
        • Crafters have to make choices which affect which areas of the market they can compete in. See systemized approach above for part of this.
    • There is an alternate system for getting items that is available to supplement your gear.
      • Vendors sell items that are locked by Reputation and Achievements (you read that right)
      • These are generally mediocre for the tier they are in, but a couple slots are competitive with the best tier stuff.
      • (these will not be purchased with coins, generally, but I don't want to get into the specifics)
    • Players are rewarded for doing the things that they like to do most.
      • Raiding feeds back into raiding items and raid crafting.
      • PvP feeds back into PvP items and PvP crafting.
      • Solo story feeds back into solo play items and solo play crafting
        • For the purposes of this I am referring to open world solo or small group play.
    So I know a lot of this is vague. The main bullet points are big goals, the points under that are general plans about how we think we can meet those goals. We actually have an answer in place already for most of this, which will of course need tuning and adjustment.

    One big thing we still need an answer for is: How do we create solo play gear that has a progression but is better for solo play than equivalent raid/PvP gear, but not nearly as good for Raid/PvP as the gear you get from that.

    We have a few answer to that question, but I would enjoy getting some thoughts from you guys as well.
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  2. gyves

    gyves Cupcake

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    Which of these can or cannot influence the auction house/economy? In other words, in which activities will I solely gain shallow rewards which only effect myself?
  3. Crow

    Crow Cupcake

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    So raiding/pvp/solo play will do reward feedback. How about cross pollination? What happens to an avid soloer/pvper if he/she wants to dabble in raiding? Will the gear be comparable to the low end of a tier?

    You could emphasize damage mitigation for soloing, dps/heal stats for raiding and larger health pools for pvp... still not optimal but a first step.
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  4. Lyas Tyrell

    Lyas Tyrell Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm hearing a lot of this lately and it's growing a little concern for me.

    PVP will give you good gear for PVPing, okay that sounds fine.

    Raiding gives you good Raiding Gear, okay that sounds fine too.

    Solo stuff gives you great solo gear. Yeah okay great... But wait, what if I want to raid and do some solo stuff? If all I have done is PVP then I'm going to start off in either of those at a big detriment? Then you guys say something like "Oh there will be options to move between them." but does that mean I have to give up my PVP gear? To be on par with entry level raid gear? It seems really complex and I think I might not be grasping it right.

    I have no problem with having several different sets of gear, in fact it gives me something to do gathering it all. I intend to do all 3 of these endgame styles and I am hoping that Wildstar makes it painless for me to do all 3, not force me to choose one.
  5. Baamz

    Baamz New Cupcake

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    If possible, I would like to have PvP gear progression non-rng based. All PvP gear should be equally optimal for the class and role that use it, in every tier.-No RNG in a competitive PvP environment is what will make PvP fulfilling and fun :)
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  6. teh_ninjaneer

    teh_ninjaneer Cupcake-About-Town

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    I used to play Wowcraft a lot. In those first two years I took the time to get that "tier 0.5 (dungeon 2) set". I was proud to run around the game world and even PvP battlegrounds as my troll priest in the banana suit. I actually used that gear to work my way up to PvP rank 10, I do believe.

    I really enjoyed the progression of that dungeon set (considered as tier 0 and tier 0.5 in the Warcraft community) and think it is a great idea of what you are looking for. You would start with a basic set of class-specific gear that would be obtained from a specific dungeon(s). Once the full set has been collected, a series of quests would open up in order to "upgrade" that basic set. The quests could involve collecting items from various points in the game world, or perhaps going back to previous dungeons and unlocking new areas, or even gathering crafted items from crafters/auction house and bringing to the quest giver. The Path system could also be used in conjunction with these upgrades as far as gathering items or unlocking new areas.

    I admit I only raided Molten Core a few times and the 20-man raids a little more than that. But I really enjoyed the 5-man dungeons back then and, even after I had completed the 45-minute Stratholme run that was required as part of the upgrade quest, I would often go back and help others complete it. I really did take pride in that banana suit.
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  7. Kayelia

    Kayelia Cupcake

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    If nothing else, this I like. It's been annoying doing stuff with less than 5 people.

    I posted something about that previously.

    The second part is one method. Basically raid gear being better out of the gate, but other gear could "catch up." However, my main experience with this method is from games build around it. Wildstar isn't inherently one of them.

    The other methods would be for each gear "path" to have different stats depending upon the source. This is going to be tricky since there seems to be no "best" stat for raids vs solo vs pvp. One could be hardcoded ("this chip only works in a raid"), but there might be another option.

    There are special chips. Could these chips have threshold levels depending upon player count? Like "Chip gains X attack when 10 or more people are around" or "Chip gains X attack when 10 or less people are around." Or maybe if a chip casts a spell, the spell changes depending upon # of affected players?
  8. Whatley

    Whatley Cupcake

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    Gear that provides bonuses for "outdoor" content. Overall damage buff and maybe damage reduction/self healing. The damage buff can enhance the naturally lower stats for solo gear, but it doesn't apply the buff inside raids, causing the gears stats to stay sub par.

    Or set bonuses that improve selfhealing and buff utility abilities and passives. Make the abilities mob cenctric like: "gain increased rep/loot rate for killing monsters, each monster kill grants +5% chance stacking to a maximum of 5" or buffs for killstreaks that would be more controlled in a solo enviromsnt than in PvP

    We have to make the Solo Gear appeal to those who want to be able to handle elder game world content alone, and not appeal to those who are looking to tune their characters to exact encounters.

    Lower damage and stats is just too hard to justify for any other benefit when you are trying to push the limits of your damage and healing per second.
  9. Dualist

    Dualist Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm not entirely sure if I understand this question but I'll take a stab at it.

    From what I understand, raid and PvP gear progression is locked and ready to go, so the problem lies in finding a way to gear out solo players in a meaningful way without trivializing gear obtained from raids and PvP?

    Conversely, does this mean that gear gained from solo play is more efficient for a solo playstyle when compared to utilizing raid/pvp gear in a solo situation?

    The problem doesn't seem like it could be easily solved by just saying gear obtained through solo play is inferior to raid or pvp gear, so I think there has to be some serious consideration towards what it is that differentiates solo combat situations from raid and pvp situations. I think that the issue can be mitigated somewhat through clever utilization of chips which promote a more solo playstyle like healing procs and stuff like that. If stat differences won't be used to differentiate types of gear and by extension segregating them into tiers, it sounds to me like alot of it will boil down to secondary abilities/statuses on equipment.


    This ^

    Yes yes yes yes yes!!

    I'm so tired of MMO's where if you're a weaponsmith/armorsmith/whatever, the only questions you get asked are whats your skill level and can you make this recipe. I want players to really be able to specialize in a niche aspect of crafting. I would like to refer to this totally unrelated infographic to illustrate my point.

    [​IMG]

    Players should be able to progress their tradeskills to that point! Maybe I can make swords with the best brutality stats available, and someone else can make claws with moxie, I think being able to do one thing and one thing well at the end is special than being able to do everything somewhat mediocrely.
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  10. Bainik

    Bainik Cupcake-About-Town

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    It seems, at least to me, like solo play should require a more hybrid-like action set and stat distribution than PvE. If you build a DPS like you would for a raid you'll get crushed due to lack of survivability (no tank soaking for you/no heals), if you build like you would a tank/healer would for a raid you'll never get anywhere (soft enrage-like mechanics). Of course that still leaves distinguishing from PvP gear, but that should already be accomplished by the presence or absence of PvP stats on the gear.

    I'm not sure how that would work with the degree of freedom that players have with allocating stats on their gear as it could be really hard to make solo gear that wouldn't be surpassed by taking top tier DPS gear and sticking some defensive chips in the free slots.

    If you only care about ensuring it's not as good for PvP/Raiding as gear from their respective progression paths you could accomplish that rather neatly by locking slots with a mix of offensive and defensive (not PvP) stats. You would probably have to lock more slots than raid gear typically has in order to make sure it has too much wasted stats on DPS for tanks/healers to want it for raid and too much wasted on survivability for DPS to want it for raids. This could actually be interesting because while the gear as a whole is sub-optimal for raiding due to distribution, and no PvPer will want it because it has no PvP stats, it could actually be more powerful (in terms of total stats) because the increased number of locked slots means more slots that can have bonus stats without power requirements and probably more bonus stats in total as a result, making it usually better for solo than PvE or PvP gear (you need the stat diversity anyway, so it doesn't hurt you much).

    The other solution I can think of, though I don't know if the systems are already in place to do something like this, would be to have ability/special chips that give bonuses for things that are only really expected in solo situations. Like a chip that gives more stats the further away the closest player to you is up to some limit (admittedly clunky), a chip that buffs mitigation as you deal more damage, or a chip that increases your damage when you mitigate or heal damage. Things that help you turn a little bit hybrid and let tanks/healers deal the damage to be able to kill things quickly enough and let DPS survive long enough to kill. The problem, then, is that if a tank can afford to take offensive stats anywhere or a DPS needs to beef up a little then their best route is probably to take one of those solo chips (if it's not, then the best route for the soloer is to take whatever the raider's best choice is). In general I think it's far too easy to have slight balance problems make these a near requirement for raiding and in difficult to predict ways (you don't know what strats will be used for raid bosses till players get their hands on them and with special chips their effectiveness would be very dependent on the strat used), because of this I don't think this is a very good approach to the problem in the long run.

    If gear were to be largely locked the solution would be really easy as the stat distributions desired are very different, but the degree of customizability makes this a really hard problem to tackle.
  11. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    I don't think you read it carefully - but just to make sure that even I read it properly , I shall write it out.

    As a crafter, whatever path you choose will reward you schematics for that path - so pvp players who craft will get pvp schematics and so on.

    If you are a raider and crafter but want to get into pvp, buy some pvp gear from the auction house from a crafter who does pvp and enter pvp. Eventually if you pvp enough ( I assume ) you unlock pvp schematics for yourself.

    This means crafters make things they can use , especially for things they do a lot of, and if anyone wants to enter another type of gameplay, visit a crafter who plays that style of eldergame or visit the auction house and buy some of their stuff and get into that path.

    That's my take away. Get different gear sets, and look for crafters who play that elder game to help you break into that path relatively painlessly.
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  12. Bainik

    Bainik Cupcake-About-Town

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    Totally agree with this. I made a thread talking about sorta the same thing a while back taking a stab at how something like this could be implemented.

    The problem being it sorta requires a fundamentally uncapped system. If there is a hard cap then eventually everyone pools there and becomes similar. You may not have the same recipes as someone else, but if some did pick the same recipe as you then you're functionally the same. If, however, you were to remove a hard cap and put a sort of soft cap at the same place, with an extremely punishing advancement curve after that point (advancing more than 5 or 6 skills past the cap being unreasonable in the life of an expansion type harsh) then suddenly it's still not really feasible to grind out skills past that cap as it would take far too long, but someone who is doing it anyway and bases their game play around crafting would be able to push slightly past the cap and be slightly better.

    You'd still have a clustering at the cap as time investment becomes very very high, but there'd no longer be a brick ceiling and you'd have outliers slightly above the cluster slowly moving further out. It would allow a small degree of variation even at the top, even among those who chose the same focus as you, and combined with a high degree of specialization would result in there being a very low chance of there being two people with the same abilities at the top end.
  13. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    I wouldn't like seeing stats like +40 dps vs players or +50 vs raid monsters. It seems like it would be easy to make solo gear different because solo players want different abilities then raiders and PVPers. Then again you are including small group in solo, so that gobbles things.

    I haven't done a lot of raiding, but I know PVP plays much different then solo content. You could put abilities like on death your corpse explodes dealing damage to anyone inside of teabag range. It would be awsom for PVP, but it would really be lame in solo play for the most part. Also give a piece of gear a vulnerability to CC and no PvPer will touch that ever.
  14. Batzorig

    Batzorig Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sidenote tangent: I never understood why SWTOR didn't have solo gear. Everyone had companions, and there was a stat that improved companions, and you didn't use companions at all to raid... it would have been a great way to implement it.

    But, Wildstar doesn't have companions (unless that's a secret you guys are keeping REALLY well), so that's right out.

    One option would be to make the solo gear very generalized, giving it a wider smattering of stats than raid gear. If much of it gave both assault power and support power, it wouldn't be suitable for any specific raid role, but would be useful to someone soloing, who needs to both deal damage to their targets, and support themselves (either through their healing abilities, or their tanking abilities). Of course, I could see some crazy scenario in which raids start running mostly hybrids using the 'solo' gear, with only a few specialized members (tank and maybe a couple healers).

    You could also make 'solo stats', much like pvp stats, that are conditional. You could have stats that degrade when you fight monsters a certain level above you, or isn't effective against "Epic" monsters (raid npcs), but works just fine against normals monsters. You could even just make the stats only apply when not in a group, but that gives a vary isolating mentality to the gear (I'm soloing, and joining with anyone else will make my gear suck, so forget it).

    You could give Solo gear action bar powers that can only be used outside of instances. Maybe it teleports in a couple allies for 15 seconds, or calls in an orbital strike, but they can't lock on to your location if there's interference (inside an instance). Maybe set these up with set chips so you're not getting 12 new powers from you solo gear set.

    Interested to see what sort of answers you guys already have in mind, but that's what I've got off the top of my head.

    EDIT: I didn't mention PvP gear at all, but I assume that's because PvP stats will do a decent job of separating it from other types of gear.
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  15. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    If solo gear played poorly with threat and aggro, then I doubt you would see much of it in raids. DPS gear that raises your threat would be a nightmare in a raid.
  16. Batzorig

    Batzorig Cupcake-About-Town

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    Interesting idea... The problem I see is how to balance it. If you had a really great tank, could people squeeze one piece of solo gear on and get benefits? Would a single piece drive your threat so high no tank could hold aggro off you? And if so, how would you keep tanks from sneaking one piece on and having perma-threat?
  17. Kayelia

    Kayelia Cupcake

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    True, but it feels like penalizing solo players with a worthless stat. Also, it might mess up small group content if it's uneven. Even at 2-5 players, tank/healing/etc roles can pop up.
  18. Honour

    Honour Cupcake

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    That's actually an interesting idea that could potentially work for raiding/solo balance if done carefully.
  19. Bainik

    Bainik Cupcake-About-Town

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    Except you run into things like gloves which we've been told will always have their locked slots as offensive stats, so suddenly raid tanks lose nothing but gain a ton of threat by getting soloer gloves. Something like that would immediately make solo content mandatory for all tanks.
  20. Silvers

    Silvers New Cupcake

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    This is a crazy stretch that is not entirely thought out yet so bare with me lol.

    PvP gear is separated because it has its own stats. Without these, everything would just be "gear" regardless of where it came from. So i feel like solo gear, if it is to truly be its own item, needs something to follow suit. So maybe it has a stat that makes the player take less damage when not in a group? Or rather, raiding gear gets some type of bonus for being in a group? I dont know, maybe someone else can take the idea in a better direction. I just think there needs to be some sort of defining stat that makes the gear solo gear just like pvp gear has its own thing.
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