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Elder Game Itemization Goals

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 23, 2013.

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  1. Monarc

    Monarc Cupcake

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    Dear devs, I'm not sure this is the best road to take.

    I can handle needing two gear sets, one for pve and one for pvp, although I miss the days of only needing one set of gear. BTW, I like pve, pvp, and solo play content.

    So now you're basically saying that on top of working on my raid set and pvp set, now I also need to work on my solo set?

    Not sounding like fun, sounds like even more gear grinding than current MMOs I'm playing.
  2. Jake Steel

    Jake Steel New Cupcake

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    I unfortunately never paid much attention to stats, so my input probably won't be very useful. Still, I wanna put in my two cents, and actually make a post in Wildstar-Central :p

    The ways I always though of it was that for PvP, one would want stats that aided in surviving, while for raiding you wanted stats that were used by whatever role you were playing. So for raiding, tanks would focus on stats like health/defense, damage dealers on flat damage increases/critical strikes, and healers on "utility" stats. But for solo or small group PvE, couldn't it instead be a progressive balance?

    You won't always have another player to hold the enemy's attention or heal you, so you need stats that increase both your chances of surviving and the damage you deal. Also, as someone who tends to lean more towards solo content, stats aren't as significant. I don't usually hear of people trying to min/max when the content is more focused on the story. That said, couldn't progress for solo content also be an aesthetic one?

    Of course everyone likes to get shiny new gear, but (and this is speculation) I feel people who focus on PvP and raiding are more interested in increasing their stats as opposed to their looks. And aesthetically, I would think they would want gear that shows of their exploits, like armor that matches the theme of the raid. I'd like to think that solo content, on the other hand, is more varied. As someone who enjoys solo content, I tend to care more about how my character looks as opposed to how effective he is. Maybe a benefit of solo Elder Game is that there are more options; fur-lined armor that can be obtained from a snowy, mountainous area, or Mad Max-inspired armor (which you should do) from a desert zone.

    I've also got a question about transitioning from one play style to another; with the ability to change sockets and alter the stats on your gear, wouldn't it be possible for a solo player to change his gear to raiding gear and vice versa? I don't know the specifics of the system, but maybe it would be like changing the armor to entry level for that type of play. I'm afraid solo Elder Game content will just be seen as something raiders/PvPers do when they're not raiding/PvPing. But if solo content is a balanced approach, then maybe swapping stats would be necessary? From an abstract point of view, raiders could have difficulty switching to solo play because of their focused stat allocation. Healers and tanks would take forever to get through content because of their lack of damage, and damage dealers would be at a higher risk because of their like of defense.

    Those are my two (kinda large) cents. As I mentioned, I'm not familiar with how stats are allocated, especially from a designer's perspective, so I looked at it from a generalized point of view.
  3. Calahan

    Calahan Cupcake-About-Town

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    First: You need solo content (aka something to do) for 30 days, not only all 30 days. The main reason, that solo elder game in MMOs even exists, is that you have something to do, until friends show up. No, not in wildstar, in MMO history. I mean it exactly this way and not negative. Long ago, designer have to think about content beside of grinding rep gold and crafting materials, because they have to avoid, that players come online, nobody is there and log out again, because they cannot do anything without friends. You have to deliver content for 30 days, not all 30 days to keep people busy, to do "something", even if its grindy and mindless.

    Second: You can give out your mighty weapon of pure awesomenes only one time. If you give it away, you need for next month content a more mighty weapon of pure awesomenes or something else awesome.

    Raid content cannot produced in this speed. New PvP items are needed too, if you increase the itemlevel. You won't get a higher tier item before next raid content is released and giving out one uber item per monthly solo content patch don't match with the statement about one or two very good items per tier.

    Item tier level increases with new raids and new pvp seasons. They cannot reset every month, because raids cannot be cleared in 4 ids or are to easy and arena seasons all 4 weeks are to short, too.

    And you have to create new trade skill schematas, or crafting is dead content after 4 weeks.

    Solo content has more to offer than awesome challenging boss beating in some dungeon I hope. There are always level 50 quests, special story or atunement quest chains, special holiday events, some sort of dailys or reputation grind and path content not forgeting. You have to create an item progress in this whole content, so the players are out to do special story after quests, dailys, path content and finally your challenging content.

    And you will repeat this all 4 weeks.

    Yes, this can work. But you cannot give the best solo content rewards in the first month update. You have to wait until you know, when you can deliver the next big thing: New raid content, new pvp seasons gear, new crafting schematas an entire new tier level of items. If you have a roadmap like all 6 month new raids and monthly solo content updates, you can bring in the biggest solo content reward after 4 or 5 months, but not in the first, because you cannot shoot all your powder for the next six month in your first salve.

    Yes, all speculations.
  4. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Im talking about a fight that requires tank stats (if you consider hp, resist, and armor tank stats). Its not an opinion, there was no other way to kill the bosses.

    Small point of contention here. People say wow raiding is easy all the time. And having never tried wow until last week i parroted the same information back. But having actually played now, i have to say that heroic raiding is still very hard and very well designed. Now i still think LFR and normal mode raid difficulty are a bad thing, especially when the armor sets all use the same model. Yes yes LFR turns everything into a training dummy, but the 1%er content is still there.

    I really don't think anything should be harder then the hardest raid content in wow. Like i mentioned its only cleared by .04% of the total population or .5% of raids.
  5. Shynx

    Shynx New Cupcake

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    so the problem i forsee is making a meaningful differentiation between solo an raidgear. you can't base it solely on survivability, lest you want tanks to farm their gear in solo content. i also forsee hardcore raiders to be expected to farm solo gear at the beginning of a new tier, because its better than the old raiding gear and more easily available when compared to 40man gear (this might not be a bad thing though).

    the only way i see this working is to add stat(s) that only influences solo/open world play (think resilience/penetration for pvp in wow) and make the chips that add these stats locked chips.

    so it would look like this:

    pvp gear:
    • resilience (mitigation against players)
    • penetration (increased damage against players)
    solo gear:
    • hardiness (mitigation against non-elite mobs)
    • cunning (increased damage against non-elite mobs)
    raid gear:
    • hit (increased damage against elite mobs)

    after some consideration, im actually in favor of such a system. it makes a meaningful distinction between the three pillars, and its a good way to control item power / lock it in its designated enviroment.
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  6. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Honestly if we go with this type of system we need to simply cut out the hardiness and keep the cunning part. This is because technology should be a base line stat throughout the game for PvE. Without it then a max solo gear progressed tank has no chance against the first elite he runs into which he 'should be able to' manage semi-comfortably.
    Though the stats exact functions may not be perfect though since solo players could still run into elite mobs throughout the world soloing... Instead I think allowing raid gear to activate within dungeons, raids, and around raid bosses works better while solo gear the stat activates when it is not around/in those areas.

    If I do understand correctly Gortok did mention solo gear even at max progression wont be equivalent to a raider's max progression this is because he apparently wants solo players once they max out to be viable in raiding but, raiders know they still have the better gear and it drives the solo players to still want to further progress themselves within the game.
    If this is the case then the system does work better than other MMOs because it allows the solo player a big portion of content while having that difficulty finding a guild. Since the gear will be semi-compotent for raids once they max it out a raider SHOULDNT look at them and go "you're kidding right?" While they wont be able to tackle 40 man raids I don't think with max solo gear they will be able to tackle 20 mans which lets them skip most/some of the heroics they need to deal with.

    While I admit it is possible to have extremely difficult solo content and challenging solo progression as well as other things there are limitations to this reality. At the end of the day it is impossible to emulate the feeling of needing to rely upon 19 or 39 other players to do their jobs correctly as well as emulate the amount of interaction and socializing between them. It just can't be done. Due to this fact that is probably the reasoning behind the fact Gortok had mentioned that raiding would still be the "next step" for solo players. In all fairness- it makes sense.... its a social game and doing the extremely more social content should be the highest tier of gear.

    The thing you need to take away from this if you are a solo player is the act they're dedicating more time, content, and alternative means/resources to letting you gear up. Instead of saying "good your max level- DO DUNGEONS WITH YOU!" Because of this I don't think a competent solo player will complain that the gear needing 39 other people ends up better than the things that you can do just by yourself.
  7. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, you'd have to set it up, but once you put it together you wouldn't have to mess with it anymore. It'd be a lot less hassle than having to keep all the armor pieces you aren't wearing loose in your inventory and manually equipping each piece.

    Well, I would hope that the UI would be clear to make such things fairly obvious. I mean, the devs know what players are looking for, so having systems that highlight those traits would be a good thing. At minimum I would hope that raid-specific and solo-specific armors would actually say "[Raid]" and "[Solo]" on them somewhere highly visible in the UI, like under the flavor name or something, so that you could tell at a glance what their intended core balance was.

    It'd also be nice if there was a portion that compiled all the stats the armor offered, so that if it offered +10 STR from one chip and +15 STR from another then there would be some place that would just list that as "+25 STR" alongside the other traits it offered. Preferably that list would be sortable by highest offered stat (if not by default), and also perhaps you could sort by any stat you're looking for, to clearly show what it offers.

    Nah, that sounds awful. Let's avoid that at all costs. Games with listed suicide rates do not do well. Except in Korea.

    Don't need them. If they can't be satisfied playing the same game as everyone else then they know where the door is. They are not commissioning Carbine to develop content just for them, they shouldn't expect to receive it.

    If they want to collect that many different sets of armor, more power to them. It could actually be an excellent money sink for the devs, offer three loadout slots for free, and then charge $5 or so for each additional one. I think that would be very reasonable, and the vast majority of players would never even need to take them up on the offer.

    Have they said how easy it would be to swap out chips in the game? I was assuming that they'd be like runes/sigils in GW2, where they are removable but destroy the base item, so you wouldn't be swapping them out on a whim, you'd only be removing ones you want from gear that is otherwise junk, and permanently slotting them into your core gear (until you decide to replace them with something better). I don't think the intent is that you be swapping them in and out several times per night.

    Well, you could, but the idea is that you'd be able to wear the best gear for what you're doing. You could wear your raid gear while soloing, but you might not perform as well as if wearing top end solo gear. I'm still really hopeful that they use the Style system from DCUO over the Transmogrification system some other games use, because if they did then you could retain whichever appearance you want, regardless of which armor set you're actually wearing. If you prefer the looks of the raid gear then you could look that way whether wearing Raid or Solo armor. If you prefer the looks of the solo armor, you could retain that look while going on raids.

    There is another option, which is to just make the solo and raid sets identical, but raiders tend to go into hissy-fits at this suggestion.
  8. Dagron

    Dagron Cupcake

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    Its not elitist to expect you to work for your gear too.



    No, players should be challenged, required to grow, otherwise you may as well eliminate "gameplay" entirely and just make a movie.


    Now its a single piece of gear? So a player either has enough gear to face tank a challenge or not, the sword just determines how long it takes for the mobs to melt, in the case of a kite-able boss it just determines the duration they need to circle strafe for. What are we even trying to accomplish here? What is this fixation with making Massive Multiplayer Online games into a single player experience? This single player experience is commonly known as action rpgs, which are already in abundance and are best consumed offline where they dont need servers and bandwidths and lag and patches against the latest hacker exploit and support for people that have trouble with their accounts etc etc etc.



    Lets not go crazy here, raiding isnt really THAT hard, yeah its hard, but its mostly a matter of investing effort. Thats why the "Im not going to invest the effort, but still demand equal rewards" argument falls flat. You're in an MMO, play with people.


    Paths arnt good enough? Cause thats what they look like: "which flavor of dailies do you prefer?" this way when people get to the end and say "bla, dailies?!" then devs will turn around and say "but thats what you picked". Sure, Ill try it, but I see whats going on here.


    Yes, its true, there are fights explicitly designed so that everyone gets blasted with fire at some point, those without enough health/armor/resists- die.


    The only two solo mechanics I can think of are heal yourself while you face tank a thing until it dies and circle strafe until it dies. Only impressive enough to start raiding, not to supplant it.
  9. Absolute

    Absolute Cupcake

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    Again - Regarding PvP-Gear:

    I still hope you guys from the development-team remove Stats on PvP-Gear.

    PvP is for Sports and thus for fun. Fun is not grinding gear and then "feel" good when dominating lower-geared players. This is only fun for people who can not overlook that they simply win because of their gear-stats.

    And this Will be the case, regardless of how many movement-options you implement. Sooner or later people know how to play so there is an even balance in terms of "skillfulness" and then it will only and only be about gear and not generally having an Equal comptetiton, like in Any Sport out there!

    So again, please re-consider removing (or not even adding) stats on PvP-Gear.

    Thank You!

    Kind regards from a veteran MMORPG-gamer, that wants to find his "pearl" amongst MMOs again.
  10. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    No.... then the PvP player would get massively shafted should he attempt to walk anywhere that doesn't involve a player to kill. Imagen hitting max level through PvP- his stats are litterally 0 when he is outside of a battleground,arena, or warplot. Which prevents him from doing SEVERAL things including protecting his own <expletive> home from invading mobs!
  11. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Not necessarily, but it is elitist to claim that the work that you enjoy doing is more deserving of reward than the work other people do. If you want to put in hours raiding, you deserve fair reward for that. If other people want to put in hours doing something else, there's no reason that they should be rewarded any less (in a game, at least).

    Players should be challenged only to the level they enjoy. If they like playing on "nightmare mode," then there should be that option available to them. If they like playing on hard, or normal, or even easy, those options should be available as well and there's no reason to nudge them towards the harder difficulty levels if that's not how they enjoy playing. There's no particular reason why those who enjoy playing on nightmare should receive higher quality rewards than those who enjoy playing on normal mode, rewards that can never be attained on those modes, although in compensation for the likelihood that they will more often fail and thus waste more time in the effort, it's fair to give them a higher quantity of rewards for their successes.

    You really need to abandon that prejudice. Solo players are no more "single players" than someone eating lunch in a crowded park is a "hermit." Solo players may not want to group all the time, and may not want to raid, but they do want to play the game with and around other players in a more casual manner, which is not an option in any offline game I've ever seen. I personally hate to group and only do so grudgingly to run dungeon content, but I love playing alongside others and helping out with events, rezzing other players, being rezzed by them, helping to take down the same enemies, buffing them, getting buffed in return, activating power combos, etc.

    I just don't like to have to /invite or /join up with only a small group of them at a time, and thus feel compelled to follow them around and "keep up." If I want to follow other players, I'll follow them. If I have something else I need to be doing, I'll do that without guilt over "messing with the party dynamics." If I want to talk, I'll do so over /say or /map chat. I'm no less "social" than any raider or grouped player, I just do it without the safety net.

    I spent a half hour or so last night running the event circuit in Southsun Cove with probably two dozen other players, on and off. I rezzed maybe ten of them from downed state, got rezzed by them once or twice, wandered off on my own occasionally to fight mobs along the sides or to sell off some loot, etc. Also, when the Shatterer spawned on my server in another zone, I logged off after the latest event and switched to a different character who was closer to that event. Could I have done that stuff in a group of only 5 or so players? Yes, but it would have been more hassle and less fun, so why should I?

    The degree to which any player in the game interacts with other players should be there choice to make, not yours.

    You really need to play a better quality of games, that sounds dreadfully boring.
  12. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    If you spend 5 hours doing an extremely challenging 40 man raid and I spent 5 hours brushing my goat's lovely fur hitting my space bar once every so often.... Does that mean I get an equal reward?

    This is so casual that it makes my heart hurt.... Lets take a look at WoW- since they choose to do this sort of thing to their raids. 25 Man raids are just about dead and gone since 10 mans proved to be easier and offered the exact same rewards. If something is harder but doesn't give a better reward players wont willing-fully do it as "progression" in a MMO. This may be true to the case in other games like a RPG or shooters or so forth but, not a MMO. MMOs reward for difficulty you overcome not pure time you spend in the game. Otherwise people that afk in town would be Gods among the people that actually play the game every so often.

    That assumes you HAVE to keep up. Why do you HAVE TO? if you're not that invested into the game? If there is no progression for a player would they play? When someone eats through the content and realizes that they have hit the end of the game what keeps them playing? You're asking the developers to shortcome the hardcore players in favor of your lack of interest to challenge yourself.

    We're off topic. Again.
  13. Galosha

    Galosha Cupcake

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    In games that have only 2 mechanics for solo, - exists only 1 mechanic for raid/group - stand where you like and do your piu-piu (strafe not needed you have tank and healer).

    Yes if challenging raid = 40 ppl brushing 1 goat's lovely fur. Why you cant imagine challenging solo-content? It exists even in mmo that for years on market and WS developers intend to cater to players who like challenging solo-content on the same level as to ppl who like raids.
  14. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    You should pay attention to the thing I'm responding to...
  15. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    I am the only one who feels that having to have a separate solo gear set detracts away from the awesome gear you're going to get from raiding?

    Say you've just spent 3 months with your guild clearing and farming everyone's sets up, yet for all your awesome universe bending gear, you've got to switch back to your adventuring set to really go out an solo. Why would I get this awesome looking gear purely for some dungeons and raids. The rest of the time I'll be wearing my blue "of the adventurer" gear :(
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  16. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Maybe, but not likely. But more to the point, if you spend 5 hours doing an extremely challenging 40 man raid, and someone else spends 5hours doing at least reasonably challenging combat content elsewhere in the game, there's no compelling reason why they should deserve a lower quality reward for their efforts. The quantity may be lower, they might have to spend a little longer on it to earn the same type of reward, but they should be able to get the same type of reward through those methods. I'm not really sure what rewards would be appropriate for goat petting, but I'm sure you would know better than I on that one.

    So that's good to know, Carbine should put less effort into designing 25 man raids, since clearly less people enjoy doing them than 10-man raids.

    Most games require at least a minimal amount of skill and effort to "complete," but very few of them abandon "easy" and "normal" modes entirely.

    I consider myself to be VERY invested in the games I play, as much as any other player. Just because I do not enjoy raiding does not mean that I'm not "invested" in the game. Your argument really doesn't make much sense, it's like if a player spends hours a day on his Xbox playing Halo or Portal, and you make the claim that he's not "invested in his Xbox" because he isn't playing Call of Duty. Some people like different activities and MMOs are like theme parks, what appeals to some players does not appeal to others, and there's no reason to reward the players that enjoy one type of content over those that enjoy another.
  17. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    That raises an interesting side question, does Wildstar have a "tiny violin" item in-game?
  18. Galosha

    Galosha Cupcake

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    You response was not to that paragraph and looked as finished thought.

    With your reply to this -
    I somewhat agree, easy and nightmare modes should have separate in quality revards because they require different level of preparation from player, and most of the times nightmare mode more time-consuming. But it's applies not only to solo-content but raid.
    You can't compare nightmare raid and easy solo ro nightmare solo and easy raid.
  19. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    <Mod Monocle> Can we please stick on topic? If you wish to discuss the nuances of solo play vs group/raid play, do so in a new thread. The thread is supposed to be more narrowed down on itemizing different types of play rather than the gameplay itself, if you get what I mean. </Mod Monocle>
  20. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Oh I'm not saying don't do a equipment management system (or have the add-on community do it short term then implement one long term). I'm simply saying that "gear management" in Wildstar will come down to a lot more than "am I wearing the right pieces?" From the CBC system.

    Sorry, I may have not made that point as well as I had hoped. What I mean is that solo gear comes usually down to a mixture of DPS and Survivability. It's a neat idea right? Well what if you got your DPS or survivability stats from 90 percent of your gear. In this I mean if a low-mid geared raider comes waltzing into solo content, and you looked at his gear compared to a top tier solo player you'd find that all of the pieces of their gear except 1 or 2 are exactly the same. Carbon copies, no difference between them. But those last 2 were the 2 that give the biggest boost (such as a weapon and chest piece) and those were drastically balanced to the opposite side and gave some sort of stat or buff that was advantageous to have in solo content. This way there's still a gear progression for solo content, and they won't be able to tell the difference, and still be able to have a slight edge and respect from the members coming down the same path.

    Yeah, ok I was a bit extreme there. But the sentiment is the same. Solo content should be really hard, like extremely hard and challenging at the top, so players can feel accomplished after a good progression. Raiding should be even harder, and only give slightly better rewards for it.

    I say give them their game, and let the rest of the players not worry about raiding. This exclusivity helps build the community too, because if there's only 10-20 40-man raid groups total on a server that are competing in weekly goals, you get that feeling of, "Oh man I hope our server wins X this week, that'd be sweet!" Especially if they brought some sort of trophy to a community hall or something, that'd be really cool. It would create server unity. So, yes, cater to the snowflakes, and let the soloers have their game too.

    Raid groups are helpful tools for building a community, and economy, exactly the same as sports teams. Think about how much revenue is created if your local sports team wins the super-bowl. Now extrapolate that to raid groups, I think it'd give an awesome feel to the game, not only for the raiders, but also the servers at a whole. Possibly even put the raiding up on a Jumbo-tron in town center or clips of them or whatever. (Possibly have it so they are simply clips from twitch.tv, where you have to go visit their page to see the rest of the raid run, so they can still monetize it. Also, don't do it during world first progressions for monetary reasons as well as respecting the race to world first or server firsts.) Let the raiders be special, but let the community show support. (Basically it'd have to be implemented so these guilds don't lose revenue or a significant portion of revenue because the game is also broadcasting it.)

    Don't just pander to their needs to stroke their ego, force them to be a positive force on the community. Make it so they go out to town and players all say, "Great raid last friday, that <bleepbloopblop> boss looked really hard!" Also, they'd need gear and lots of it, so that builds the economy, and raid mats, builds the economy. Do the same to the competitive PVPers, make it an in-game e-sport with in-game temporary rewards (like a really cool building or something, not anything tangible, something that's more about honor, respect, and servers than anything else.)

    Here's the a gamebreaker.tv interview that you may find interesting:
    (JG specifically mentions "inter-raid competition" as well.)
    http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/wildstar-interview/

    Ugh... I really don't want to get into that... the best revenue builders are the ones that everyone can use (because you include the entire population) but don't give anything other than an aesthetic or an advantage to a side-game. WoW's cash shop and League of Legends cash shop is a perfect example of this. Never make a player feel like they're being gimped if they aren't spending money, instead make it so that players say "Hey, this game's pretty neat, I've been a lot of fun playing, and that boss was really hard to beat. Man this game is great... SAY WHAT?! That boss has a companion pet that I can buy for only $5?! Yes please!"

    This is the happy consumer. People don't *enjoy* buying things they need. I've never met anyone who's like "OMG I love shopping for toilet paper, it's the best!" (There's exceptions to this, such as finding a new place to live or whatever that can be considered fun, but not the little things.) Also, with that you could simply have a community add-on that's free and does a very similar thing to get around it. Otherwise you have to limit the add-on community arbitrarily, and this also feels bad.



    Well, there's chips that have 2 power settings, which you can toggle, but they aren't sure how easy that will be.

    What I meant is that you'll want a set of chips for a given content with you, for when you get the upgrade you need, so that you can spec it out and use it immediately (if you're smart anyway). This chip set will have to change based on how many types of gameplay you do. So for instance for raiding, you'll probably carry on average 12 chips of varying stats. For PVP it doesn't really matter because you don't receive items during the content. For solo, you'll want to carry 12 chips as well, it'd be easier if these are the same 12 chips as they were for raiders with the exception of a couple for your "drastically different" 2 pieces. I think they're supposed to work similarly to gems and enchants from WoW, but I don't know exactly.

    I know you can't swap back and forth between actual chips, but this doesn't mean you won't be carrying them.


    Same thing as Transmogrification in WoW. There are reasons for having and not having this, all come down to how the devs want it. There are merits to both sides of this coin, and no clear overall advantage to either.


    Actually I've heard in an interview that max level players should have drastic variances in gear and not all look the same. This alludes that even within class/role specializations there will be drastic differences in gear. I can't seem to find it exactly but I thought it was in the Gamebreaker.tv one I linked earlier. I've also heard other folks mention it on the threads. It's so hard to keep up with the info sometimes when there's a billion interview all over.
    Shynx likes this.
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