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Elder Game Itemization Goals

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 23, 2013.

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  1. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    You're forgetting the Elo system put into PVP players. In this gear is also calculated. This ensures that fights will be on relatively equal footing for skill + gear of given teams. This means while your opponent may be slightly more geared than you, they are likely slightly less skilled than you, and in those cases generally skill will win out, but occasionally a piece of gear or two will make a fight easier than it should have been.

    So, the gear is used to further equalize the fight between the teams, creating a larger pool for a given rating. This ensures that you won't fight the same 2 teams over and over until you best them in one more win on average. So... statless pvp gear, stat pvp gear really doesn't matter in this system.

    The lower levels will be skill vs skill only, and the higher levels everyone will be equally geared, the middle will all generally be fair fights. The starting rating will have the greatest variance of players, but they will quickly diverge.
  2. Vmoped

    Vmoped New Cupcake

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    I'm sure it has been mentioned, but this thread has gotten fairly long so I will add my thoughts:

    1) Pve Raid gear: This can be differentiated in a way similar to GW2 by having a stat that reduces or prevents some power/attack/move/etc... of raid mobs and bosses to add value for raiding but have no impact to other content (perhaps even some benefit to dungeon runs).

    2) PvP gear: This has been differentiated in numerous mmo's by providing stats that reduce damage from other players and increase your damage against other players.

    3) Pve Solo gear: Same base stats as the above two minus the raid/pvp additional benefit. This allows the pvp and/or raid gear to be on par but have added benefits for their intended arena of play.

    Cheers!
  3. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I don't know what the stats are on the most current raid. I've heard that this raid is pretty good. I stopped playing right before the Throne of Thunder released, due to lag issues. (ISP not connecting up with Blizzard's servers correctly and such as well as some other issues. WoW's a great game don't get me wrong.) I think that WoW's model of "get players to raiding asap, and don't REALLY cater to the other players" works well for WoW and they should keep doing that. If you do anything other than raiding in wow, don't delude yourself, it's nothing compared to the raiding. Sure you could be having fun, but you'll always be playing second fiddle to the raiders. This even goes for PVP, Blizzard knows PVP is imbalanced, and expects players with better gear to straight up be able to beat lower geared players, regardless of skill. They also know their classes aren't balanced well enough for legitimate competitive PVP, and are fine with this as well.

    I'm not claiming that other aspects in WoW are not fun, but if you're not raiding at all (at least normal modes) you're not "really" playing the game. The point in Wildstar is, I'm hoping the game shifts towards the open world, and raiders are revered as amazing teams of players, but not expected once you hit end game. I don't know if this is possible, but I'd like to think so, and think it would create a difference in the community from WoW. Don't try to do what WoW's done, try to do something equal (quality wise) but different. Blizzard does (usually) put out quality. They've messed up a some stuff pretty well, but in general they do put out really good quality work. That's the most important thing for a successful MMO.
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  4. Ceodoc

    Ceodoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Carbine you are very lucky peeps to have this kind of feedback, wow to some of the comments posted here, really amazing!

    My tupence.
    Much noise has been made of that Vanilla feeling of walking around town gloating in your best "sundays"
    I would not like to see "3" sets of gear because we could lose that feeling.
    Please don't underestimate the need for us/me to have that feeling, to my mind it could be a game breaker.
    Taking for example my last end game raiding experience, I was walking around the major city with all 3 weapons jaffa (orange-legendary) very early on, the time invested to have that feeling is the key to logging in after cap, if I did not have that jaffa feeling, end game raiding would be less meaningful to ME.
    If there is a necessity to have this "solo" play gear, then maybe it has to be QOL gear....shoes that make you run faster, but worse stats, chest piecses that are made of more durable materials, lower repair costs, hats that keep you shaded, rested xp, all of which can have lower stats then my "raid" gear, but make the solo content "easier".

    Please, please, don't make me, not wear my hard earned raid/pvp jaffa gear!

    Doc
  5. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I think the best solution is still have solo gear be lesser versions of raid gear, but still have a defined progression. Also, that the difference between them being a slight performance or stat difference, and a large difficulty difference. (In that solo content would still be legitimately hard). This means a long and challenging experience for that "legendary" gear for raiders as well as solo.

    There is one caveat. The solo gear would have one or two pieces that were major pieces which were specialized for solo content, and needed to properly progress in solo content. (Your first quest would reward with a really bottom end version of this gear. Or make it purchasable.) This would be a weapon and something else. This allows raiders to have the same meaningful progression feeling through the solo content, and doesn't make it "worthless." If you can wear your Raid gear everywhere, then no rewards can be given to you through solo content, so it reduces the wanting to continue through the progression because it's just boring. Fights which can be outgeared are not fun long term. They may be fun the first time you do them because the animations look cool and you feel way OP but you wouldn't want to do them over and over.
  6. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    I'm sure it would be a pain to do but y'all ought to separate the posts that seem to think they KNOW how the game is gonna be from the posts Gortok wants. that should make Gortok's thread about 6 pages and the know it alls about 22. I seriously doubt anyone from Carbine is digging through the trash that is littering otherwise asked for posts.
  7. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    The side posts give other valuable concerns though. It also starts pointing out problems, even if Carbine's already thought of/solved these problems. So, even though the posts may not be ideas on how to fix it, it may be ideas of how to not fix it. Sometimes this is equally valuable.
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  8. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    This. While it is awesome for a raider to say "Ya- I'm pro *smug comments continue* in reality no machine (guild) is better than it's weakest gear (player). Raiders really are just a large team and allowing the raider to both keep their "ego" helps them with the constant slap to the face when attempting new bosses, constant defeat, and so forth.

    Now- I'm not saying solo players don't need this also but, to an extent they don't need it as much. Raiders among themselves are scarier than you might think. Solo players may see this side of them when a raider confuses a solo player for a raider.... We get competitive... Super headstrong.... Super judgmental.... Stats on gear, what gear looks like. It is all factors and that atmosphere drives each other to "win". It is sort of like the NFL- the teams respect each other but, hate each other at times and "play off". Given that Wildstar will even have LADDER BOARDS for PvE raiding this will be 100% of a fact.

    This is actually a very good idea... since solo players will utilize them more and raiders litterally wont have a purpose for QOL items (if the stats are lower and the QOL stat isn't insane enough to make up for it) then it can be balanced to allow the solo players an edge in the things they enjoy doing as well as letting them occasionally run into the other progressions.

    The only problem with this is that it turns solo gear into 'sub-optimal' gear. A common argument in this giant thread between raiders and solo players is the differences in opinion on how solo gear should function and to what level as well as where. I don't think a solo player would like to know that 'his stats are less than a raiders' even with the QOL aspect added to them (which could include mana reg, health reg, movement speed, etc etc). While I personally find this an interesting idea I can honestly say as a raider-depending on the stats of course- wouldn't use the gear if I had raid gear due to my own play style of "If it is dead I don't continue taking damage." Is this a good design? Well- Yes and No.
    Yes- since I'm a raider and I don't feel I need raiding gear in solo since I'm stronger without it.
    No- because I'm in the solo content and a separate progression system's gear is dwarfing the content to a degree.

    The most dangerous QOL stat could be movement speed buffs followed closely by health/shield/(resource*) regeneration. While I have a better understanding on how gear/crafting will work in Wildstar now- I can say that these stats come to a large price to using them. Since I believe there are a limited number of sockets in each piece you get along with the amount of power you can supply to each. Raiders would be less inclined to use them if it means throwing down a large portion of DPS/survivability. Though would solo players really feel the urge to use them themselves? As far as regeneration stats go- raiders could look at the resource regeneration (mana or shields or so forth) and like them but, a solo player may not.
  9. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    In it's own separate post. The OP asked a specific question and should receive those answers in an easy to navigate thread.

    The other stuff is fine in it's own thread.
  10. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Wouldn't it be great if we could just bottle up creativity of a social environment and distill it like that...

    These are fans and enthusiasts, not payed employees to submit reports. Not only that, but it's free (in that it doesn't have to be sponsored) market research. Sure the format's crazy and unrelentlessly off topic at times, this means you read bits and piece of where the discussions are going. Ideas are echoed throughout the thread, you don't have to read every page, but if you skim the top and bottom post of every page, you'll get the gist of it.
  11. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    <Mod Monocle> Discussing what's on or off-topic is still off-topic. >_> My intent was to focus the posts before the veer too far off course, rather than completely shift the line of discussion. </Mod Monocle>
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  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Finally this idea's getting some traction... I think it's important for server community health.

    What about raiders who do solo content? They'll still have to manage 3 full sets of gear. I think any way you cut it managing 3+ sets of gear is dumb and arbitrarily complicated. If players want to play all 3 sets of content, why should they be penalized?

    As long as there's meaningful progression for soloers and meaningful progression for the raiders going through the solo content, that's all that matters. The important thing to note is that it's equal amount of challenge and fun for either player to do the content. This can be done with having 2 pieces of gear you manage for your solo content if you're a raider, and a sub performing full progression gear set for solo players. Since gear sets need to be balanced for solo content, you could have raiders need to get a weapon which gives them survivability if they're dps and dps if they're a tank/healer. You don't need an entire different set with different bonuses to make them feel drastically different.

    These things are often wild cards in the game, and can be severely imbalanced if not kept in check. It also limits playstyle of soloers, and forces them to learn to play their class in a way that is "wrong" in raiding, which is bad if players want to move between groups of content. It means that the only way to start raiding is by starting with raiding and then going to solo content afterward. Instead of having the two with similar builds, and priorities, then if a soloer wants to start raiding they'll have the skills, just need to learn teamwork. And vice, versa is true for raiders going to solo content, except they'll need to learn to be self reliant.

    You don't want soloers to build completely different skill sets from raiders and vice versa in other words, it hurts both communities by forcing segregation of skills. (I'm purposefully excluding PVP from this, due to the complexity it adds to this particular argument, but it will come out the same, just require a thesis paper to prove it.)

    I'm getting mixed signals... you "liked" my post earlier. :p
  13. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    What i meant is, how hard should wild star actually be? Weather we talk about solo or raid content i don't think content should be any harder then current heroic raiding. If heroic raiding was your baseline in the graphic you made, 99% of players wont see half of the content in the game which is a bit much even for a more hardcore raider such as myself. Like i said this was a small point of contention, everything else you said is fine. I hope you can find challenge in whatever you do. I'm surprised no one has talked about this, but if solo is a valid progression why shouldn't 5 man be as well. I love hard five mans when you walk in the first time in half greens. Why cant we keep this feeling going and make content that is still hard even in top raid/solo gear.
  14. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So the issue you start running into is, as you make content harder, players get better. And so you have to make the content harder. With Wildstar already setting the bar potentially high (through levelling with an action based combat set) it has the possibility of players getting to max level extremely skilled. This means that the raiding will have to be harder to account for this.

    The problem is it's a moving target, and right now in WoW you can do the majority of the game without ever having to "avoid" an ability. So, it uses "awareness" as one thing that raiders are better at than a solo player (among other things), but it's the main thing that can make a raider or make them not a raider. Since in Wildstar player's awareness is already naturally higher, the game will have to be much harder to keep it challenging.

    It's an abstract topic, that has a moving target is the real problem. How do you ensure that players will be challenged at end level if you've already stated that your game will teach players to play better. JG said, "We're like a sausage grinder that takes newbies in one end and poops out skilled players at the other." (paraphrased, but pretty close to the word for word, in his interview with Gamebreaker.tv). If they're doing that, then the content will have to be harder because players will naturally be better at playing, so then the "Average" player from Wildstar would be considered a "really good" player from WoW, meaning that you still need content for the "really good" players in Wildstar.

    This implies much harder content for raiding in Wildstar.
  15. Ceodoc

    Ceodoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Is this a problem though? As you allude to later on, they claim to be making a harder game per se. anyway.


    Players will break/devour content, that's what we do, the only fix to making the content last longer, is to make more content.

    Let's hope so :)

    Doc
  16. Ceodoc

    Ceodoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    If you want to target solo players, some suggestions:

    Gear has internal CDs, has bonuses to gathering, crafting, questing xp, but make the cd long enough that a raider would not be able to benefit...most evenings.
    Solo player can then strut around with "pants of mining + 1" which has normal adventure stats too, with some pride because peeps will know that they are a solo or non raider. Make the pants good enough when the cd finally comes up, that it promotes a solo player base to wear them full time.
    A raider could get some benefit on an off night.
    And you can make the progression as hard as you want for solo content, so that it is understood in no uncertain terms that said player is a "pro" solo player. This could be a system to reward solo play...especially if you add in some long quest/farm chains to get these items.

    Maybe you need to do x amount of solo play post cap to even have a chance to drop?

    In summary if you really need to have solo content mean something, then you have to reward it pro rata, those pants of mining + 1 can be upgraded to +2 but man you need to run through a lot of solo content to upgrade them and when the miner walks into town wearing the +3's you want a "raider" to turn around and say "props to you man".

    Because "the everquest" needs rewards.

    Doc
  17. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Sorry, my fault I wasn't specific enough. I was referring to the problem with comparing difficulties of WoW to what Wildstar should be, and what "harder than WoW" means. That is what I meant by "problem" here. That the idea is abstract and the target is constantly moving, depending on the game. There is not a standardized difficulty unit.

    That's not entirely true. Players will get through content as fast as they can. If it's hard enough, this could be a very long time. You could also put in arbitrary gating mechanics like hard gear checks, and only allowing them to access the content once per day or whatever, but those feel... well... arbitrary. So if you make more difficult content it will be finished eventually. The juggling act becomes, making good enough content to hold players off until you've released the next set of content, while keeping a quality standard and keeping it challenging. So, yes, make more content, but if you make it difficult enough, you will have breathing room until you have to release more. This is the principle MMORPG's thrive on.

    We'll see.
  18. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Preface: I'm not referring to "solo content" as all content which you do alone/can do alone, simply the content that's been considered for the solo progression elder game.

    Meh, the pants of mining thing seems like something that should be a crafting bonus, as it is related to crafting, and the crafting bonuses will not give direct benefits to combat. (Like they do in WoW.) I think solo players who aren't into resource mining would feel completely slighted by this. The problem with giving rewards that don't deal with the content you're currently doing. It also means that if crafters want to craft, they are forced to do solo content, which raiding crafters (which have a separate set of recipes) will also be forced to do so, even though they're already doing crafting as content on top of raiding. (Crafting will not be expected to be done by all players, and will be difficult and interesting, these are things that Carbine has said they want to do.)

    As for questing XP, you have to remember this is for end game content, so, xp's a moot point, unless you're talking a reputation buff, which seems kinda lame, in that why not just nerf the overall reputation needed at that point? I get what you're saying, give solo players a buff to things that are nice, but it really only works if you do the content that it's for. Also, if you give rewards like that, it forces those who are doing the rewards from the content styles it buffs to do the solo content, and pressures soloers to do the other styles of content as well, such as crafting, or grinding reputation, etc. The point is that the solo content is supposed to be a legitimate end game thing, and have some sort of progression, crafting's supposed to be it's own thing that does tie back in, but only through gear crafted, and the gear given should allow players to cross between game type, but not force them to do so. So, like, solo gear being equivalent to dungeon gear or slightly more powerful is fine, as long as you have to work harder to get it, because you don't want people who are raiding to have to go grind out solo content instead of doing dungeons, but you do want soloers to come raid, if that's what they want to do.

    Gear appearance is much more evident to players, so if you just make it look different but stats are relatively the same, with a few changes. Carbine wants their max level players to have huge variances in how they look, this is important.

    I don't think it's necessary to have reciprocating revere and awe. Soloers just want fun challenging content with a meaningful progression. If the raiders try it and go "Wow, that's some hard content there, and really fun." this is also good. This means that when someone's said "Yeah, I've finished the solo tier..." the raiders will be more likely to say "Hey, nice job, how would you like to join our raid for a real challenge?"

    It should be respected, but not revered in other words. Raiders shouldn't be amazed that someone's finished it, but they should say you've got the chops to begin raiding. I think this will help both communities grow. On the other hand, raiders should be revered as skilled players part of an extremely skilled team. They should be like Olympic athletes, and no one has doubts of their actual skill. Kinda like world first raid groups, but for any successful raid group. It will also help break down the barrier of "Link achieves to the raid and have equivalent gear as what's dropped in the raid anyway" situations for PUG groups (if PUGs ever exist...) or groups that are attempting to recruit.
  19. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Only if they are purely optional, as in, the only difference between a player who has beaten the "casual mode" versions and the players who're completed the "ogm deeeeath" versions would be some achievements and bragging rights, not loot.

    Yes, because if there's one thing raiders need, it's an ego boost. :rolleyes:

    You give a lot of ways that the average player can bow down before their lords and masters at the raiding game, but very little reason why they should. Why should non-raiders care? Ok, the big bad raiding guild beat the raid last night, why should I care? What does that do for me?What does their raiding add to anything outside of themselves that anyone should care?

    Actually most F2P games are based on the idea of "whales," some players that will spend way more money on the game than most. I can think of no better way for raiders to justify their existence as a catered minority than if they end up spending far more on the cash shop than the average player. Not "buy to win," certainly, not the purchase of elements that make it mechanically easier to compete, but "buy for convenience," features that don't make you stronger than other players, but that take a little of the hassle out of the process. You've never actually need more than one loadout slot, all the additional ones do is mean less hassle when swapping builds, so offering several for free is a gift, and charging for additional ones on top of that would be perfectly reasonable.

    No. Some, maybe, if they care, but every player has their limits of what they can do, and their limits of what they care to do. Making content more difficult doesn't make everyone better, it makes some people better and just acts as a barrier to others that they will never cross.

    Don't confuse solo adventurers with crafters/miners/etc. Sure some may do that sort of thing, but if I'm wearing armor, it's about the combat stats, not about non-combat activities. If they do have "pants of crafting," they should not be drops, they should be crafted. If they have "pants of mining," they should not drop off enemies, they should drop off harvesting nodes. Combat gear should be combat gear.

    But all appearances should be available to most players. "everyone looking different" should be because they've chosen to wear different stuff, not because they didn't have access to the same stuff. You travel to any area where level 80s congregate in GW2 and I defy you to find any two players that look exactly the same, and that's with a system in which the vast majority of appearance items are fairly easy to get. It should be about choices, not about availability.
  20. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Honestly I think this is the best thing that we'll be able to ask for. While it does turn solo content into a 'stepping stone' progression in a way- there is just so much you can do that could be equal to raiders without making raiders quit playing because they dont see any meaningful reward system from raiding.

    Though- I think this is already what Gortok was going for since he mentioned something along these lines. So I think we should focus upon the question at hand of how solo progression could be motivated without raiding being harmed?

    There wouldn't be really a point in doing the harder version then. Believe it or not- bragging rights are not a driving factor but, a secondary reward. If all you get is "bragging rights" no one will really care.

    What does a solo player add to the community at this point? Without raiding guilds PvE turns into a stale and stagnant elder game and people quit playing. GW2 made this mistake and really all you get to do is WvWvW or their PvP. PvE doesn't really exist in that game.

    You're actually wrong- and he was talking about games across the board. Players are more willing to spend money they don't have to if they're having fun and enjoying the game they play. If they're not and they feel like they have to they're in fact less likely to buy it. If it becomes a need- well that is Buy to Win which Wildstar has blatantly said "we're not doing that".
    If you make something like raids and PvP and have a competitive Ladder Board you don't have purchases that make the content any easier- this turns into a necessary piece to stay competitive. You shouldn't expect anything like the stupid boosters GW2 has because these are perfect examples of a poor cash shop item being implemented.

    Healthy competition. Welcome, enjoy your training. Think of raids as a SPORT. Very similar as to how League of Legends Ranked Mode isn't considered 'casual play'. Raiding can be casual but, the majority- especially higher up in the progression- will be hard enough to break any casual team and act as a wall. Without these walls the 'better players' won't be challenged enough and eat through the content and eventually quit. The casual players would soon follow suit as they themselves finish the content.
    When something becomes so easy everyone can do it no one cares that you did it. And before you think this is an Ego thing it isn't. Its the simple fact that if a game lacks challenge then players will naturally become bored of it and move on.

    In each of your posts you always come off as a raider to me... yet you claim to be a solo player. I'm beginning to think you're just bitter to raiders due to something you had happen in the past. Regardless Gortok has made mention that solo player's progression will be lower in stats than raiders.





    GW2? Lion's Arch- I remember plenty of hundreds of players that look the same. When everyone has access to everything it losses it's unique value. Some players wear things for that simple reason. In GW2 a Legendary became more common and lost a lot of its value when you see 50 people running around sporting it. Its the exact same reason an Epic in WoW became the norm to have.
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