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Elder Game Itemization Goals

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 23, 2013.

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  1. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I disagree. I think as long as solo content is respectably hard, and forces raiders to give a decent amount of respect for the soloers, I don't think they need to be equal. Also, no, the only difference between "casual mode" and "OMG Death!" mode should not just be bragging rights. It should definitely be gear difference. Otherwise how do you progress through the OMG DEATH mode?

    That's my entire point. Raiders have huge, very fragile egos that must be fed in order to sustain the raid group. That's all they have, take it away and there's no point to raiding, there really isn't. It comes down to "I sat here and worked with my group for hours at a time to down one boss..." So yes, I don't know if I'm going to raid but I know I'm going to solo. Raiders have to make sacrifices in real life to raid (at least hardcore ones do), do soloers? Nope! Am I cool with that? You betcha. If you want content where you have to be solely dedicated to, and play every single scheduled night that they've put on the calander, join a raid group.

    I think raiding should be respected for what it is. It may not be as hard on a personal level, but holy cow is it stressful, and time consuming.

    You SHOULD care if it's the one on your server. There should be temporary server wide perks that are neat. The server should care about the raid groups on the server, I've already argued this point in a post on why raid groups are good to the economy and morale of a server. They should be treated like a sports team, why not? That's effectively what they are. Let each raid on the server choose a home town, and when that home town "wins" for the week on whatever, you get special visuals that go on there. Or have it so that players get a temporary visual effect if they're from that "home town." THAT WOULD BE FREAKING AWESOME!

    Yes and they capitalize on those "whales" by only making them buy when they're doing good in the game, so it becomes a reaction. "I just won X times, I should reward myself with Y." You would feel like you "need" it if you're supporting multiple types of play. So, why force someone to pay more that's already punished with an over complicated gameplay? They just happen to like and want to support a bunch of different game types, that should be rewarded, not punished. This way you get more players who raid, more players who solo content, and more players who pvp, good for all the communities, as long as they enjoy doing that content.



    So, you're saying people are incapable of learning to get better at things? I've got about... oh... 6.974 billion people who would show you you're wrong. As long as the learning curve's low enough, you can continuously teach people, as long as they're interested. So, there's a ceiling to how hard gameplay can get (we're talking about physical speed of humans at that point), and sure people lose interest in things, but if you stay below that ceiling, you're good. I doubt we've gotten to the ceiling.

    As an aside, I wish you would use the reply button so we can see what post you're replying to. I can't tell what sentences have been taken out of context otherwise. A lot of things out of context are easy to argue against, and can demonize people and put words in their mouth. It's a good documentary trick for bad documentaries, but a terrible one for discussion and debate.

    Edit: Actually a good example that Raiders need to have the most powerful gear in the game (due to fragile egos) is with WoW. PVP gear has a few item levels lower, and Raiders have undeniably the most powerful gear in the game. PVPers are fine with it, because you can't use raid gear in PVP. (This was in MoP that they did this, I think PVP's highest gear was something like... 473 and Raiding's was like 496.) Same with Solo, except you shouldn't care what raiders are using for solo content, because they're not opposing you...
  2. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Yeah, attempting to build off of what Gortok said, and pushing forward from there. I still think that taking basically Raid gear and multiplying it by .92 for all but the chest and weapon slots would work, then you have the chest and weapon slots that give something which is useful to solo content, but the overall stats on it are still .92 what a raider's would be. Such as a sword that has support stats, but gives an on-hit dps buff. Something like that, so that players are able to spec out both tank and dps on their abilities. As long as these things are on the locked sockets, it won't really matter, because raiders wouldn't usually want a tanking sword that has damage bonuses (except in extreme cases where they already generally overgear the content anyway, but we'll ignore that, because it would mean they're coming back to the raid afterward.) I'll come up with a graph/spreadsheet to show you what I mean if you need.

    It's sorta hard to explain well.

    If you're going to refute, ask more questions about it first please, I'll explain it. I think it's possible to balance something like this.
  3. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    This is a bit condescending, too many people take what they see in Trade chat and project that onto all the progression raiders, when its really just a few bad apples.
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  4. Jarek

    Jarek New Cupcake

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    Hmm I guess I have a question. Do raiders bother to finish solo content on their way to doing raids or just bypass it as fast as possible? Or do they do raiding on raid nights and solo, or group at other times. If the latter, which is my experience of raiding from back in the day, then do you really want road gear to trivialise all solo content? Which is essentially what happens if you make the gap between road and solo gear too big.
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  5. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    For me its the latter, and whats the difference in trivializing any of the solo content/quests or dungeons. If the raider really wants that true experience, then he can put on some blue gear, same if he wanted that experience in a dungeon.

    Edit - If solo players are having a ladder competition also, then couldnt the instance require a specific gear level, just like the Ulduar achievement?
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  6. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm going to attempt to kill two birds with one stone here- Solo progression should have some aspect to it that is better than raiding or pvp's gear when it is used in the variable content of "solo" It shouldn't be a whole set- as we have said both multiple times that it is a pain enough where raiders and pvp'rs may have anywhere from 2 to 6 sets for just those alone and adding more sets to it just is an annoyance. Though the reason I say there has to be pieces for it is to give raiders that are top tier some reward for completing solo content. This is the part that I think brings the most issue- Since solo gear will be 'lesser' than raiding gear (at least the way Gortok has worded his statement on it) this is rather difficult because no piece of gear in the world may match it and switching between sets to do open world from raiding set may be a bit annoying for some.
    This is something to take into consideration- Raids will likely give gear and simply just that. Since WoW had Raids be the end all be all for PvE we can't use it as a comparison but, if we give solo players cosmetic rewards such as different mounts, pets, housing material, etc. That can only be acquired from solo progression it becomes unique and something of a reward to the solo player. This isn't to say that they wouldn't get gear from the progression as well but, we need to look at it in a way that the gear may not be an upgrade for the player doing the progression. The same could be true with heroics- since solo progression will eventually bi-pass the gear they should add some cosmetic rewards to heroics to give solo players and raiders additional reasons to re-do them. Though I would recommend putting them at the last boss loot table or you may run into some headstrong solo/raider going "heh didn't drop- *leaves group*"

    This isn't the case for 40 man raids though or 20 mans. This is because of the amount of players that will have access to it and if you give cosmetic rewards to raiders- even though they may be different- it subtracts some of the unique aspects from the solo progression. Not to mention there will be 19 or 39 other players that are cut-throat over a cosmetic.

    The goal is to make all forms of progression appeal to any player so they can truly chose what they want to do.

    On a sidenote to Blindsear-- To be honest it is likely final solo tier progression will be .75 of a 40 man raid piece. Since solo progression would put it around 20 man raiding gear. Also I really like your idea of the server receiving the entire bonus but, that brings into other balancing bugs with itself and I don't think it would be a good idea in the long run sadly.
  7. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    If there's no point FOR YOU to play on a harder difficulty mode, than don't play on that harder mode. Plenty of people every day play games on harder difficulty levels than they have to, and if they don't, that's their choice. Let people play on the difficulty level they prefer, there's no reason to bribe them into doing otherwise.

    What are you talking about? I play about two hours a day and never PvP or WvW, the PvE scene on GW2 is alive and well. Some of the raider types checked out really early, but the game as a whole has been just fine without them. I know that the raiders like to believe that their leaving somehow "doomed" GW2, but nobody else actually noticed them leaving.

    Not relevant to the point I was making.

    It would never be necessary. All it ever does is save you a minute or so of inventory manipulation, as few as a few seconds if you know what you're doing.

    Sure, but it's a sport that most people never want to be involved in. Not everyone who enjoys a game of flag football with their friends actually seriously wishes that they were playing in the NBA, at risk of permanent brain trauma from getting tackled one too many times.

    And if the game gets too challenging to the point that the things you can do are boring and the things you can't do, you can't do, then players will also quit. And the players that fall into that category are far more numerous than the ones that fall into yours. They would much rather lose one raider who's "conquered" raiding and gotten bored than they would the hundred players that hit the stuff the raider was doing and got kicked loose by it.

    That's because you have some serious and apparently deeply ingrained prejudices about what a "solo player" is. We're really little different than raiders, except that we don't like to do big "group mandatory" activities. If it helps, I'll let you know that the only game in which I've participated in any form of "raid content" was DCUO, and those were only 8-man "raids," and I had perfectly pleasant experiences with them for the few times I ran them. I just wasn't interested in doing any more than that. The only thing that bothers me about raids is that the people who participate them seem to develop this sense of entitlement that they are owed all sorts of bonuses that other players can't have. If it were just a matter of running the thing once to get it out of the way then I wouldn't really mind, but you're basically expected to do these things over and over again to get the full rewards, and I just have better things to do with my time.



    Maybe in the early game, there wasn't a ton of variety in low level options, but nowadays? Everyone's got a completely different look going on.

    Skill. If you need a more physical representation of your progress, there's always the codpiece slot.

    Then I think it's healthiest for everyone involved to just lance that boil sooner rather than later. Let them ego-starve and go away so that they don't continue to distort the gaming community.

    The only thing that would make me care what the raids got up to was tangible benefits. Like I don't do much WvW, but the strength of our WvW team provides several persistent benefits to everyone on the server (or doen't if they drop the ball), so that gives me some incentive to cheer them on. Really those are the sort of benefits raiding should be about, building up the community, rather than just personal gain. I would not cheer raiders on as a "sports team" winning games for their own personal glory, but I would cheer on raiders that were working hard to bring back solid rewards for everyone else.

    No, I'm saying that everyone has a limit to what they can learn, and another limit as to what they care to learn. You can't expect everyone to end up at the same place, or WANT to end up at the same place.

    Nor should Raiders mind if soloer gear is better, because we're not opposing them either.
  8. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I can understand where you are coming from here. Players will most defiantly rise to the occasion given the proper opportunity. The biggest problem in wow is just how easy raid finder really is. You can pretty much just stand and dps and win most of the encounters, and most players are fine with just doing LFR and getting more or less the same gear. However the challenge is still there for those that seek it. Imagine for a second that wow were to drop both LFR and Normal modes. Do you think the content would still be considered easy?

    Maybe in wildstar more players will be able to do content like wow hard modes. I know i would be happy to have more competition and hope they can turn "noobs" in to "elitests". Regardless you have to draw the line somewhere. If some servers don't even have guilds clearing the content, its probably too hard, even for those of us who like a challenge.

    Just a side note, while most games have less casual players i don't think any other mmo has guilds as hardcore as wow either. When you see a raid gets cleared in 2 weeks you might be inclined to think its easy. What i see is a guild like method who raids 12hour days to clear the content on mains alts, ptr and gets any possible advantage they can.
  9. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    You're comparing a MMO's difficulty level change to a different game. The short answer is- No.... Players wont play it unless there is a reason. Bragging rights mean nothing in this case since not 100% of the community will care and according to you- only 35% or less will even be doing them? Those are some weak bragging rights alone right there.... Not to mention how would you progress through the harder difficulty without better gear or challenges? Throw arbitrary mechanics into to make it seem more difficult? That doesn't make it any more fun or challenging- just a bit annoying. Harder difficulties alone need gates to themselves.

    The developers would like to keep as many players as they can- giving a reason for a large sum of players to leave doesn't follow that idea/goal. Besides- this game isn't going to be GW2 where gear is meaningless. Come to this realization sooner rather than later please.

    It wouldn't be necessary TO YOU- if you told a football team that they could have a lead on the other team for some few dollars than you better believe they would pay that money. In the case of a video game with healthy competition they would pay the money and not be happy about it because it reflects a Pay to Win model. Any hardcore raider would require it to stay at the forefront of guilds. And before you say "they would be so minor differences though".... There are reasons Min/Maxers exist in the first place- those minor upgrades are things they go for and drive for. A huge sum of raiders go for Min/Max approachs and they would not like this type of system in the least bit.
    Something you're forgetting is the goal of this entire progression system is to cater to you- the solo player. They're not going to wreck the raiding scene by any stretch of the means.

    Personal opinion. Just because you don't doesn't mean there aren't 6+ Million others that want to be. (Which Carbine is aiming to please)

    This is why solo progression is being made and is being worked on. Raiding is suppose to be the brutal <expletive> slap of the PvE scene... This isn't to say solo progression wont have some challenges but, if you make everything so easy then the average player will get bored with it and leave also. If you beat something that is easy you're left with a bad taste of disappointment because it was so simple you yourself don't feel like there should be any reward for it.

    Ya- because you dont have the same feelings about what a raider is....

    If it doesn't interest you- stay out of them. Thats why the solo progression will exist. Don't expect to be handed equal gear though because you're choosing a different progression system for something entirely different and the raiding scene will be far more challenging than solo content.
    In Before "Solo can be challenging"- Yes but, there are limits to how challenging it can be before it becomes impossible. Now take that challenging solo content and multiple it by 40 going on at the same time with some of it overlapping into other parts making each person needing to worry not only about themselves by 39 other people.

    About 3 weeks ago isn't "early days".

    No human being will believe you if you say "I'm good" over the internet without some form of proof. Internet Rule 101

    Ya because losing 35% of a community is healthy progress for a game. Especially one that is so very new. That will make the game a huge success wouldn't it?

    I touched on this- while it is a good idea for the server to reap the rewards it isn't easy to balance or implement in a way.

    Are you being serious? If you can't learn then you have a deeper problem than the game itself... It would be like the stupid raider that stands in the fire and dies constantly. If you can't learn to overcome a challenge then you don't deserve to beat it... This is the case in video games and real life. Welcome to TESTS and QUIZZES. What did we learn today?

    Yes because after I went through the huge trouble of getting together 39 other people, learning fights, organizing the raid to work together, continue after several wipes, all 40 people set aside time from real life activities to do it, I deserve the same thing or less than what you did at your own convince alone?

    Your logic... It baffles me.
    Tell me Ohoni- if you love GW2 so much why do you care about Wildstar? GW2 has just about everything you've said so why do you have any interest in playing Wildstar when they have said they'll have things you clearly do not like/want.

    Other MMOs have hardcore guilds but, it isn't as obvious or talked about due to WoW's own popularity. WoW is more used as an example simply because of the probability someone has played it before if they have played a MMO. In a way EQ and EQ2 have way more devoted guilds that run content than WoW but, no one uses them as an example because of their age.
  10. WakeskaterX

    WakeskaterX Cupcake-About-Town

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    Trying to debate with Ohoni is a completely worthless endeavor. Don't get baited in.

    It just turns into arguing instead of legitimate debate.
  11. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm slowly starting to realize this.... but, we severely digress.

    Lets take a look back at what Gortok has said in this forum that is relevant to figuring out possible answers...

    Cortok isn't opposed to the idea of a raider needing to farm solo content as long as it isn't viewed as an 'evil' (boring or a chore) this is a big case since raiders would likely rather play in a raid or as a group and probably won't do solo unless they're bored- and doing bored content while bored is.... well terrible. The thing I take away from this is solo progression could have bits and pieces though that a raider may use or find viable. While I'm not necessarily a fan of this it does make sense though since it will allow a solo player to use those pieces to raid if they want.

    This here alone is blatantly says there needs to be transparency of some level. While I think it is best if we make Tier 3 Solo equivalent or slightly of Raid Tier 2 it is possible that it could be equivalent to Tier 1 Raid instead as it allows the player to still skip over heroics and go straight to raiding. If it is equivelent to Tier 2 Raid then it may run into issues of balance or raiders may view it as an alternative means to gear for Raid Tier 3 (something I personally don't like and I think Gortok doesn't want this to be the case as well- though I don't hold speaking power for him.)
    This is where a huge cink in the gears started in the forums since an example was given that was poorly optimized. As many have stated the 'balance stat' could be very optimal for a healer given their form of style or load out. Lets avoid this and look at the underlined part. While it is in fact true tanks have been known to utilize DPS stats to tank for optimizing threat generation to allow DPS to do full load outs from the get-go to optimize boss downing times which in turn makes the fight easier--- There is a point where the mitigation/avoidance and dps meet or exceed a point for this to be true.
    If the mitigation/avoidance is low enough to still be an optimal usable piece for solo players and the dps high enough it will cause tanks to be less likely to pick it up. This is because the only reason a tank can make this choice is by throwing around numbers in different combinations of gear. If the stat is low enough then it may not be enough for a tank to meet/exceed a certain number he needs to comfortably survive. DPS raiders will commonly ignore any form of mitigation or avoidance and instead focus on health as their buff stat so we can ignore them in this situation. The reason the stat can be lower for a solo player is that raid/dungeon mobs are more likely to do higher amounts of damage (due to their expected gear caps) and world elites while they do damage higher than normals normally don't hit as hard as dungeon elites (This is being based upon several past MMOs I have been played).
    QOL bonuses which were discussed in this thread recently also has been stated by Gortok. While I mentioned it is dangerous with certain ones for various positions it goes into how they are implemented. If raid gear has less "ability" chip sockets (I'm assuming they are different) then this would be less dangerous. So the fix here would be allowing solo players a gear progression with more ability sockets than raiders. Though this example could be mute as I'm not entirely 100% sure how the chipboard system works on various gear and so forth.
    Gortok likes quote tags... and more to the point he agreed on something I recommend (which I previously didn't even see him post this). That being vanity pet rewards would come from solo progression. Though he does touch on that raiding gear shouldn't automatically be the best for solo play. Which brings me back to a transparency stat idea that PvP sort of has where it could be half as effective in other content but, in its own it would be more powerful. This could give the desired crossing over and at the same time limit the raider's power in solo without making them entirely weak.
    Set bonuses could be a viable option to empower solo player's progression while making them ineffective for raiding and vice versa.

    Solo play progression may be used as a raider's own stepping stone.

    Solo gear doesn't have to be equal to raiding gear's progression.

    This part is huge since Gortok does agree that raiding gear should be as good for solo as it is for raiding but solo play shouldn't be as good for raiding. This leads me to believe that he is ok with solo play being a progression towards raiding if a player would like. But, as seen later on (high up in this large post) he does agree that transparency is optimal.
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  12. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    If people don't want to play harder difficulties, then just don't have them. If people do want harder difficulties, then they will play them without bribery. You really can't argue this from both sides at once. Long story short, there is no reason that players should have to be bribed into what they want to be doing, and if they do have to be bribed into doing anything then that just isn't something the developers should be wasting their time on.

    But it wouldn't give anyone a lead on anyone else, it would only be any real time saving if you have people jumping immediately from one activity to another, Triathlon style. Does WoW actually have events where you have to PvP and then immediately gear up to raid as fast as possible?

    No, but that there aren't 6+ million that want to be does mean that. Raiders are tiny in number. Sooooo tiny. They're just very cranky when they don't get their binky.

    Right, which is why the content should be targeted at "normal mode" difficult enough that it presents a challenge to the vast majority of players, while not being impossible or inconvenient for them. There's no need to "dumb down" content below the vast majority of players, nor is there any need to make it harder than most players would enjoy. They can have "hard mode" content if they like, but it should be as optional as in a single player game, those who do not enjoy it should be able to ignore it without missing out on cool stuff.

    I don't expect to be handed anything, but I do expect to be able to EARN the same things through activities that do not involve raiding. I'm willing to put in the time and effort, I just don't want to do it via raiding. It's like in real life, you work, you make money. Say you want to get a fancy car. And let's say that you can either work as an artist, or as an account executive at an office. You'd enjoy doing the former, you'd hate doing the latter, but you'd make more money doing it. Now, in the real world, you could choose to do the job you hate, and make more money, and be able to afford that fancy car faster. Fair enough. Or you could choose to do the job you enjoy more, make less money, but eventually you'd still be able to buy that fancy car. It's not like the fancy car has some "you need to be an account executive to EVER buy this car" rule, that's just silly.

    Just as there are equal limits to how challenging a raid can be before it becomes impossible, no difference there.

    But that's just a random failure factor entirely out of the player's control. That's not adding challenge, that's just adding risk of failure. They could do that on single player too, just design a challenging encounter, and then throw in a few points where the dice are rolled and if it fails, you lose entirely outside your control. Then it could be fun. Like a raid.

    That's what the codpiece slot is for then.

    If they're raiders? Yeah, it's for the best. They'll be more easily replaced than the alternative.

    So you're saying that 100% of the game's population can and should do the toughest raids? Ambitious.

    As I've said, repeatedly in hopes that maybe it would be listened to at lest once, I have no problem with raiders receiving a higher quantity of reward for time spent, but in no way should they receive a higher quality of reward, something that soloers cannot get no matter how much time is spent.

    Because Wildstar is different. A lot of you guys seem to love WoW, seem to still play it, why are you here?

    Yeah, apparently for it to be a "legitimate debate," I have to eventually agree that the other guy is right and I'm totally wrong, whether that makes any sense or not. ;)
  13. Zap-Robo

    Zap-Robo Administrator • King Cupcake

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    <Admin Hat> Okay, seem the discussion here has run it's course and now people are just butting heads. Apologies to Gortok, but this thread is now closed </Admin Hat>
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