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Foundational competence & testing.

Discussion in 'Guilds, Circles and Warparties General' started by Aneu, Jun 27, 2013.

  1. Aneu

    Aneu Cupcake

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    Foundational competence & testing.

    First please let me quantify what I mean by foundational competence. You cannot put a guild together outside of a game and expect to be seen as competent, it is a nice thought but in reality it simply doesn’t happen that way. Foundational competence equates to a time proven guild that has a steady amount of players (no heavy through-flow) that have played together long enough to be in sync with their fellow members, able to hash out problems and situations in a heated manner but it not explode into full out brawls, with a long term leadership set in place that has proven its worth in many situations that could prove too much for some. Both casual and committed guilds can be foundationally competent but the level of competence between them can differ hugely, where one may focus on world first the other may focus on casual grinding, one may clear content faster than another but both these types of guilds are required for this topic. Competence in PvP can only be proven through prior experience in games and thus can only be qualified by “bragging rights” and while a lot of players don’t like this we can generally drill down to the point where huge amount of players simply play to be “better” thus “bragging rights”. Ok, now that is out of the way… (Feel free to rip this apart as much as you like although I am fairly certain it would be hard to qualify foundationally competent as anything but the above).

    When testing an MMO the developers behind it, whether content or system, need to take an approach that allows their work to be validated not only by QA but also by players. We have all seen instances in MMOs where players have found issues here there any everywhere that slip through QA net’s and make their way into the launched client, essentially when it comes down to it the best QA you can have in any game is the player and that is the reason behind my post which will soley focus on end game content (be it pve or pvp).

    With the “grapevine projected schedule” being bandied around and many people having it set in their mind that Wildstar will launch at some point this year (something I am doubtful about) my worry begins when discussing with the community team that “Guild invites have not yet been sent out” thus confirming that there are currently no focus guilds involved in the testing, especially since 40 man content is still not complete. So why bring this up? What is the problem? The problem rears it’s ugly head when 40man testing starts and in-depth and worthwhile feedback is required by Carbine but not just the above, it needs to be feedback based on competence, on guilds that have proven themselves time and time again in previous games but those guilds need to actually be honest about their skill level and worth and this is also something that Carbine needs to take a direct hand in otherwise we get the same old issues from multiple previous games that simply cater to too many people and create content that is far too easy thus ending in a mass exodus from the game after a month.

    If these guilds are not given a month prior to testing in order to gain the skill level required, the knowledge and information based around class builds/synergies and mechanics of the game then essentially Carbine will be creating a game that is built around an in-built player-skill cap that will create the aforementioned problem which will also cost developer time post-launch in order to fix. Instances will be chewed through exceptionally fast and players will get the same feeling that SWTOR provided which was the feeling of complete and utter disappointment, now some may be more inclined to say “It will be more interesting due to combat” but even TERA (which generally has the same combat style as Wildstar) couldn’t provide the end-game content that is required to hook players into it, the only way you do this is by providing a challenge that is not impossible but extremely difficult, create content that allows the best guilds out there to compete in and lets recently created guilds to aspire to be better than they are and improve.

    Now most of the above was aimed at PvE content so lets move on to something closer to my heart. PvP testing.

    There are so many ways within which you can destroy combat balance in a game that PvP testing should be absolutely paramount in testing, getting casual players involved in metrical PvP testing is not only bad its destructive. When looking at metrics of PvP tests you can never have the full story since metrics will never take into account the skill of the player and balancing around this will simply create an imbalance in gameplay when competitive players get involved – Once again we’ve seen this in many games in the past, most of all RIFT showed just how bad metric testing can be when balancing classes (especially when they had so many to balance).

    With qualitative testing you can take into account the actual skill of players and offset lower skill levels against higher skill levelled players without it skewing the view of the class or making it seem underpowered – Just because someone defeats another player 20 times and retains 80% of their health does not always mean the class is overpowered (as an example).
    Warplots are something that will generally make or break this game for any guild focused on PvP thus the above kind of testing is absolutely paramount in order to achieve the balance required to keep it competitive without guilds finding clutch builds/ways within which to steamroll their enemies – once again this needs to be qualitatively tested since not every guild will be of equal skill level, simply using metrics will skew balance and will again result in the above imbalance of certain classes and clutch situations being the “norm” once again costing developer time to fix post-launch (and we all know that post launch is going to be a hectric enough time as it is).

    I have brought these issues up in the IRC and have had a few responses and one that resonated with me and is completely valid is the one of “Beta burnout”. Beta burnout is a huge concern for any company and rightly so but the issue with this is that without letting just a few foundationally competent guilds in to the game in order to be monkeys for the developers then the launch of this game will not be as strong as it could have been, if the developers are showing the progress they are making to the guilds and keep lines of communication open then said guilds will feel so engaged in the process that beta burnout will be held off for the majority.

    It comes down to a balancing game, would you prefer to have a few guilds in testing and getting worthwhile and valid testing information that provides the ability for the developers to create a well-balanced endgame for you and me or would people prefer to be petty and kick up a fuss over certain guilds getting in thus resulting in a badly balanced endgame via metric testing or testing that is done on players that have an in-built cap imposed through lack of play. Being as greedy as I possibly can here, I know for a fact that I would pick to have the aforementioned situation happen.

    With the above out of the way Carbine also need to take into account the simple fact that NA and EU players generally play differently (in PvP). Anyone who has played GW2 along the PvP aspect of the game and played on NA and EU servers can qualify this statement. Having a majority of NA players in the beta will not create a well-rounded balance system since playstyles can differ vastly. I could write an essay on the differences but I guess people can either trust that this is true or go and research it for themselves, both of which will provide the same results.

    I look forward to seeing people’s replies.

    Regards
    Aneu
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  2. Dende

    Dende Cupcake

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    I understand your concerns, but after watching many dev videos, im 200% sure they know what they are doing , especially on the pve part. why?

    Well simply because Wildstar has the great opportunity to learn from other similar games to expose the weaknesses and pick aspects and concepts that went well and implement it in their game. On the one hand they put so many freaking flavours from so many different games into wildstar to build a great experience. On the other hand they mad the game unique. The graphics, the engine , the combat system, the paths are all trademarks for wildstar, everyone would recognise.
    Furthermore didn't you realize the fact that they go ALL IN with their concept , tackling the one and only mmorpg out there: WoW , taking risks of 40 man raids, housing and many other parts where other MMOs have failed and put these kind of thoughts to rest?

    If parts of the game are impossible or not intended/bugged, im sure something will be done. The devs are not pussies who will nerf content because someone cries on the forums for it. why?
    Because their business model allows it to create such an experience.

    -
    While other MMOs are still puzzled to build a good experience for everyone in terms of casual/hardcore gaming, i believe Wildstar Team created the perfect al dente concept of MMORPGs.They are pretty badass in my opinion and they are really really enjoying what they are doing and creating and thats good!
  3. Roland Daemon

    Roland Daemon Cupcake-About-Town

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    Alright.

    First of all about Foundational Competance. While I do agree with the concept, it has been proven false for me many times. You do not need to spend time with a group to 'sync up' with other people. Individual skill can be a great catalyst in many games. Dota and LoL show this mostly because I play solo queue all the time.

    I get people who don't know what the hell they're doing and we fail
    I get people who know what they're doing and just can't co-ordinate.
    I get people who knows exactly what i'm thinking and will jump on things the moment i'm ready.

    This is with people i've met/played with for a mere 5 minutes... if not less.

    As far as guilds go. Much like everything else, a guild is just the sum of the individuals. Even if you played WoW for 8 years with someone throughout with a raid group and that person didn't get better... Well, that kinda puts that whole time = sync thing into question.

    As far as the PvE and Raiding goes. They're planning to start that soon hopefully and that'll be going on throughout beta and up through launch. This mean's for however long beta is (and I will agree that I doubt this game will be released this year.. and i'm okay with that) they will be testing the raids. I'm not worried about this aspect but i'm hoping good things can come from this.

    As far as bringing new people/players for raid testing... what's wrong with that? It's a good metric for learning how fast people can learn their classes and what works and what doesn't. Yeah, it can be overwhelming as GW2 proves by being level 1 and jumping to 80 in pvp... but you learn a few tricks and you ride them till you figure out the rest of the class (shortbow bleed rangers, anyone?)

    How people learn is something that also needs to be taken into account with that testing as well.. While maybe harder to learn as a metric, it can provide feedback that they may need. I'm also sure we've played with max level players in other mmo's who didn't know their staff from their sword. Those people are out there... they will try to raid.

    and they will fail.

    Failure is a metric and good one in my opinion.

    As far as PvP goes. Warplots are something new and we won't know the success of them till after launch because it's something we HAVEN'T seen before. There have been things SIMILIAR to it, but nothing quite like this. and as far as the examples of people winning by huge margins...

    Isn't that was player skill is about? I've destroyed classes in other mmo's that I had no right in doing so.. but because I played so much better than them, it was just.. cake town.

    I think Carbine is well aware of what they need to get done and whats needed to accomplish it. I'm not a game developer, but the people there have been doing this for years (if not, decades) and I trust them to make a good game more than you or I ever could.
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  4. Genev

    Genev New Cupcake

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    @Dende (grrr @ Roland posting while I was writing :p)
    Thing is though, all recent mmorpgs that have come out have had the great opportunity to learn from other similar games, and all of them have tried to tackle WoW in their own ways.
    Every time a new game is in the works, you hear the same thing "This is it. This is going to be the absolute best one. The devs are so enthousiastic, the game looks amazing and unique."... Exactly what you are saying, every time.
    However that doesn't mean that any testing processes should be skipped, or anything considered unnecessary worrying because fact is, it's not. One of the reasons you're saying that about this game, is because you haven't found it anywhere else recently.

    While I'm (cautiously) optimistic about the direction the game is going, you will get better feedback on hardcore group content for people who know how to play in a group with each other, and who are familiar with the game.

    Think of the games which come out which have had undiscovered bugs and exploits in release because it wasn't tested properly or rushed, the difficulty ratings of the end-game being too easy/messed up between bosses, etc etc.
    These are all results of inadequate testing, or testing with the wrong focus.
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  5. Caliban

    Caliban New Cupcake

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    @Roland Daemon

    I disagree with what you said about guilds. Guilds are not just the some of their individuals. Ideally they are more than that (sometimes they might even be less). With great players and some good luck the individuals might be so naturally in tune that the guild frame would be of little consequence but these are exceptions. So in most cases I believe we can assume that a guild is more than the sum of their individuals.

    Saying that time does not equal how in sync people are, is very accurate. Some are (as previously mentioned) more naturally in tune and some adapt very quick, some never seem to fully integrate. In our guild it feels like we work together very well and I do believe that that is something rather special (not unique or rare, nevertheless very important).

    I still think that everything in Aneu's post stands.
  6. Dende

    Dende Cupcake

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    @ genev

    I'm totally open for raid tests and especially the anti cheat coverage. I just wanted to point out that i trust them the way they are going. Most hc gamers are aware of exploits and track them very fast, because they have used them all over the place ( nihilum for example)
    There were exploits in every expansion of WoW. A lot have been resolved(ofc not in the patchnotes) only in later expansions(!) and were only known by a small amount of people. We speak of "easier" gold farming and or flawed combat mechanics. There is even a site of WoW exploits that i dont want to post here but it has more than 500 pages full of treads. What i want to say is that its not possible to prevent people from abusing but its possible to minimize the result of it by testing content. I also strive for to NOT rush the testings especially in terms of anti cheat.
    Not only itsa huge deal for HC gamers to not let the others have any unwanted advantages weather in PVE or PVP, but its also demotivating for casual gamers.
    Dont forget here that in this new gaming opportunity the HC gamer does not represent the whole business aspect of the company. Of course big gaming communities draw many other people to the game but the majority of players today dont really look up to HC gamers that much as it was in vanilla wow and focus more on themselves ! The minds have changed very much, but it allows to draw more non gamers "browsergamers ;)" to the community.

    About HOW Blizzard really did raiding content ( besides getting feedback from hc raiders) i would like to recommend you reading: ( the kael'thas part)
    http://www.manaflask.com/en/articles/eoy-s-exploits-the-burning-crusade
    I bet the way wildstar will go , will be not the same but close, and i would like it (altho its a bit unfair)
    To give you an overview on how many exploits WoW really had visit http://www.manaflask.com/en/articles/eoy-s-exploits-vanilla?page=3
    - and they are all NOT a big deal nor was it gamebreaking
    BUT there should really be a team of "hackers or malicious software users" to minimize botting or any form of 3rd party programm usage that can destory the economy of the game.



    - about the other games that wanted to tackle wow.
    First. I dont believe Wildstar Team sees themselves as tackling other projects. I hope their bigger goal is to make a good game instead of targeting other games downfall. This is the only way how to succeed.
    This was the major problem of other games.
    Also i dont have any glue about SWOR, Rift, GW, or whatever they are called. I just looked at some screenshots and already knew that its going to fail or not have the same success as WoW.
    For an MMO you need to have a huuge story, good music, good combat mechanics, etc
    For me thats all what those titles mentioned do not have.
    Look at D2:LOD ; i would still play it if it would have better graphics. The mechanics , the story and the good music tracks are unique. Thats what its all about.
    D3 has failed for me aswell : because it lost its uniqueness with the expansion.
    ->http://vgrants.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/d3vsrock.png even if its humorous its true
    For me wildstar goes into the right direction to become huge.
  7. Ishtar

    Ishtar New Cupcake

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    I don't think that Aneu was suggesting that new players should not be invited into testing, he was just expressing the need to have organised guilds involved in the testing. I do agree with him and I'll try and outline my reasons clearly, hopefully without itterating too much of what he has already outlined (but I can't promise).

    Guilds tend to be made up of individuals who share common interests, goals and/or skill levels and tend to recruit to that purpose. If an individual isn't able to integrate into a guild because their interests, goals or skill levels are different then they tend not to remain in the guild which ties in with this quote from Aneu's post, 'Foundational competence equates to a time proven guild that has a steady amount of players (no heavy through-flow) that have played together long enough to be in sync with their fellow members'.

    Experienced guilds are beneficial to testing because you have a group of people who already know each other, have gaming experience, can converse and brainstorm together and to that end offer valuable feedback. This doesn't make the opinions of individual testers any less valid but the sort of feedback you can expect from experienced guilds is invaluable and shouldn't be overlooked if you want to achieve a balanced endgame within a reasonable time frame.

    Roland mentions that you don't have to spend time with a group to 'sync up' and this is true however this by no means makes Aneu's statement untrue. A group of people who have played together for a length of time are generally able to coordinate themselves better because the movement and actions of their team are second nature and because they are able to create builds which support each other. They are able to collaborate ideas on playstyle which don't get stalled in dead ends and one way streets because they have a number of minds working on it. I know from personal experience that an organised team will beat a random team most of the time and this largely due to the points I just mentioned. I don't believe the minority examples invalidate these points to any degree.

    There has been mention that Carbine is making this game for long-term players, this makes the quality of the endgame extremely important otherwise you can't hold people. I truely am hoping this game can offer that kind of experience and that is why I support Aneu's post.
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  8. Genev

    Genev New Cupcake

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    Testing should never only be done with a certain type of player, like only hardcores, nobody is saying that :)

    What this post is (partially) about is that for the purpose of testing large end-game group content, it would be a good idea to get the type of people who will play that content in a bit before they open these tests so they know how the game works before they get to the testing of that specific thing, and as such will be able to help out more and perform at the level expected of somebody who reached that content.
  9. Phunk

    Phunk New Cupcake

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    @Dende

    I don't think generalizing "all" Hardcore players as "exploiters" is really needed, of course you get the odd black sheep of the bunch who chooses to use these cheap tricks, but just because someone is a hardcore player doesn't make them an exploiter.

    as for and GW, RIFT and SWTOR, they do have story, music and maybe not the best combat mechanics but they're present , but you missed the biggest part of it all...and that is fan base, anything splashed with a star wars tag is instantly hyped..why, because its star wars, Guild wars, well after the success of the first game, it's only apparent that the 2nd will have such a sizable fan base too and a large story (3 books, 2 games). though i don't understand how you can call a verdict on a game merely off of screenshots, as for being as successful as wow, not even close, but GW series for example, didn't/doesn't have raids, but on the other scale...WoW didn't really have anything to facilitate 100+ people battles which GW2 does (WvW)

    Also the only game to be remotely close to "wanting to tackle wow" was rift, hence the "we're not in azeroth anymore" slogan on one of their launch video's. Though personally i would believe ALL MMO's want to "tackle" wow...heck who wouldn't want to dethrone the king of the genre and takes its place, it may not be the focal point of a company to do so, but i'm sure they think about how it would feel to do so.

    now back to the topic at hand

    @Roland

    You can't really compare the likes of LoL to that of an MMO, the potential is there to pubstomp and carry the other 4 players to victory in a MOBA (in most cases) , the same is certainly not possible in a PVE environment of an MMO, even if you were 5 of the best players in the game, you still wouldn't be capable of say killing a raid boss...why? because you're 5 players out of 40, and the content which you face is designed and tuned for 40 players, not 5.

    also there is nothing wrong with bringing new people into raid testing, it's a brilliant way to scope out the skill ceiling of classes and also the skill "requirement" of the content being tested (assuming the new player is of low skill for the sake of this comment) and whether or not it needs re-tuned to allow for the more "casual" players to participate in the content successfully (not that im claiming casuals to be of low skill) and the same can be said about bringing in a competent guild group who can push the limits of the content through the synergy they have built up from playing previous games together aswell as the knowledge they have from their experience of playing MMO's as a group.
  10. Sledgehammer

    Sledgehammer New Cupcake

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    @ Dende

    First, I'd be cautious about making sweeping generalizations such as

    "Wildstar has had the opportunity to learn from other games....expose weakness..."

    First, I am not saying that the Wildstar team has not learnt and incorporated novel ideas into the game.

    This phrase and similar variants have been thrown about within the gaming communities so much that it is to be taken with a pinch of salt these days. Almost every developer and fans of mmos have been using it to champion their ideas and we have seen instances where those games have failed to deliver.

    It is great to hear that the team has been throwing in all sorts of hopefully revolutionary themes and innovations, however this is where it gets hairy. If I am to understand as you quote "...they have put so many freaking flavours from so many different games....to make wildstar a great experience", it might be in danger of actually losing it's "wildstar" identity and end up as a patchwork of random ideas pieced together.

    This ties in EXACTLY with what Aneu is trying to address in his post. Aneu does not disagree that new players/independents/non-experienced/non-hardcore players do not have their place in the testing phases.

    With so many ideas pieced together, including new ones that the wildstar team seeks to put in, established guilds play an important role. Let's face it, not everybody has ever had the opportunity to play EVERY single mmo ever released, so experience and ability to notice and seek out bugs for everybody is limited. But with established guilds, the chances of bumping into those exploits and bugs are much higher as many heads are working together on the same issue. Game balances (overall big picture view) are also more difficult to detect since testing phases are time limited. Unless an individual had time to play every available race and content during testing, it would be difficult to be able to make valuable comparisons on balances. Established guilds that have the manpower, experience and opportunity of being able to roll most if not all classes and experience various aspects of the content will be able to detect these "to fix" areas more quickly.

    TLDR:
    1. Players from established guilds, new, solo, hardcore, casual players are needed to provide as much feedback as possible from the huge spectrum of playstyles. Each group provides different data sets needed for more holistic development.

    2. Established guilds being able to field the manpower and experience have an advantage of being able to experience a wider variety of content and thus making it more possible to have an overall view towards game balances.

    @ Roland

    A guild is never MERELY the sum of the individual, if that were the case, the purpose of a guild is null. A guild exists because people with common interests and goals decide to band together to form synergies and have fun at the same time.

    Using the example of solo queues in Dota and LoL as an example is a poor proxy to make a sweeping generalization that "you don't need to spend time with a group to sync up...."

    Just like you, I do play quite a fair bit of solo queued, premade Dota and LoL; the game mechanics are absolutely different, so comparing a guild to a random pick up of another 4 players who have not spent time playing together before is a flawed comparison.

    The random pickup of 4 players are going to disperse after the game. There is nothing to invest beyond simply seeking to win the game at hand.

    Proceeding to use a Dota, LoL example since it was forwarded, the closest proxy to a guild would be a pre-made.

    Have you ever tried playing a pre-made game? Hopefully you'll notice the advantages that a group of 5 pre-mades who are in tune with each other's playstyles can provide.

    The issues where you have noted about players in your Dota/LoL group drawn from solo queues highlight precisely WHY an established guild structure has advantages.

    Those people who appeared at first instance not to know what to do or to anticipate what you intended to do in game is a good example of why time is needed to sync up. They may actually be good players once you develop a rapport with them.

    They are not in tune with you as they have never spent time playing with you to know your usual playing styles and patterns and thereby highlighting these differences in a negative manner.

    This is what a guild seeks to achieve - everybody brings something different to the table and when people are more in tune with the differences, these differences can be turned into an advantage through better understanding, accommodation and teasing out the parts that can be synergized. These synergies need time to be developed, it is not something you get overnight.

    Your points do not invalidate what Aneu has said (since exceptions exist), but it would be a sweeping generalization to say that " You do not need to spend time with a group to 'sync up' with other people"
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  11. Apothecary

    Apothecary Cupcake

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    One thing im personally against is these 40 man raid guilds, like your gonna get in with a bunch of randoms, no way in hell can they do a raid together people who dont know each other etc, it has also lead to a huge shortfall in people looking for guilds as people go to these raid groups because it "guarntees a beta invite" from what some of those raid groups advertise, carbine made a huge mistake by mentioning about guilds with 40 members getting in for raid testing.
  12. Xemma

    Xemma New Cupcake

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    And this is exactly why bringing competent guilds from both US and EU into the beta as early as possible is so important. The guilds need to be able to learn all the skills and explore all the possibilities the LAS and gearing system brings to the table to be able to test properly. This is ofcourse for both warplots and raids, but esspecially warplots that'll be the feature to make or break the game for many people.

    This is not to say that inviting un-guilded people isn't necessary. The game needs to be fun for them too after all. But there's always a chance that the random Joe, that was invited, will play the game for 5 minutes and give absolutely no feedback. Inviting well established guilds means quaranteed quality feedback.
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  13. Roland Daemon

    Roland Daemon Cupcake-About-Town

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    Lets take it from the top.

    Guilds. Why aren't they just the sum of the individual parts? Everyone's their for their own reasons and that may just happen to sync up with each other. The thing is that some people are worth more than others in that regard. In most guilds i've been in, i've watched as our 'best players' left and pretty much destroyed the guild.

    Individual's can become the guild and therefore are at the whim of those that want to be a part of the group.

    I wonder if anyone here can see that problem occurring right now....


    So. With the LoL/Dota thing. How does a team that works together turn into a single person 'pubstomping?'. If one person snowballs because they saw when to strike and do so repeatedly does not make it a pubstomp. That's a problem of individual players skills because they saw it once and they get caught and don't learn their mistake.

    No Carry ever carries a team by itself. While some people like to believe this, it's because the other team mates let them do their work and support it however they can with farm, initiation and items to help stop the other team from doing things that would stop their support (This applys to dota more than LoL.. LoL has ****-tier itemization in that regard).

    Yes, I've been in pre-mades.

    No, it hasn't made the experience better.... In-fact it makes it worse.

    I've lost 'friends' because of pre-mades. Because everyone seems to forget that premades link you up with other pre-mades and at that point it's testing playerskill and sync with each other... oh with.. guess what.. the same game i'm playing in Solo without the stress of getting angry over friends over a silly video game.



    And to say i'm flat out wrong with my statement that time =/= sync is calling into question alot of things... even moreso when I look at everyone posting/liking and noticing you all have the same style of signature.

    To say i'm flat out wrong is not only disrespectful, but isn't an actual conversation because you're dismissing completely what i'm saying and taking what you believe to be the highest truth.

    and that's the MOST DANGEROUS thing that could ever happen to anything in any kind of testing...
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  14. Caliban

    Caliban New Cupcake

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    You didn't quote me but I'll try and talk about some of the things you touched upon.

    I already talked about guilds not being equal to the sum of their individual parts. I do not think that that required any more explanation. It is obvious that you disagree with me on that. I think that we can chalk that one up to different opinions and let it go as it only seems to be heading for one big circle.

    I did say that I agreed with you that time does not equal how much in sync people are. However it is much more likely that people in a certain guild that plays together regularly (5 to 7 times per week at the moment) are in sync than a random selection of players. Some of these players caught up with what our guild does in a matter of days, for some it takes weeks. There are always exceptions and heavy outliers, you can't focus too much on those. Time spent achieving certain things is a decent measurement for how in sync people are, it is not perfect, but it is pretty good.

    When it comes to the last part of your post I'm a bit confused on who or waht that is directed at. I saw no disrespect in this thread. We do not dismiss what you are saying, some of us disagree and we voice that.

    P.S. What do people have against 'large' guilds or am I just imagining things? I might have to up my dose.
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  15. Xemma

    Xemma New Cupcake

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    @Roland

    Guilds are indeed individuals come together for common goal and interest, but they are also committed to each other unlike a group of random people who just happened to end up in a group via LFG. Sure, there is some amazing pugs too but those are rare and only last for a short duration.

    I don't play LoL or DOTA but from my point of view premades are always more fun than hotjoins simply because of the ease of communication. Hotjoins are also usually filled with people who only care about their own individual score and don't give a flying monkey about how well the team is doing. But this isn't really relevant since a 5 man team is very different from a 40 man one.

    Sledgehammer didn't say your statement about time =/= sync was flat out wrong. He said it's a generalization.

    You point out there is a lot of people from same guild in this thread. It is indeed unfortunate there isn't more people in this discussion :(

    @Apothecary

    The "guilds" simply made to get into beta are indeed stupid. I hope Carbine checks out the guilds they choose properly and don't just randomly pick some.
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  16. Sledgehammer

    Sledgehammer New Cupcake

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    Let me address a few points you brought up.

    1.
    Why isn't a guild just the sum of its individual parts?

    Let's put this into a bit of perspective. I like pvp and there currently exists many different styles of pvp eg. structured pvp, open world pvp, group pvp, small team pvp etc.

    For example:

    If I like open world pvp and am joining a guild, I will be looking to join a guild that does open world pvp. Would I be joining a pve raid guild, or a guild that focuses solely on structured pvp? I would think not.

    The people in this open world pvp guild are going to be playing open world pvp. We are there together for the common purpose of playing open world pvp. We may have auxiliary reasons as to why we are together in the guild. Some may enjoy being part of a guild that seeks to be the best in open world pvp, others may be there because of friends, others may enjoy connecting and playing with members from other cultures and as many different reasons as there are people you can come up with. BUT we are together with that one common purpose - open world pvp.

    We did not "just sync up". We are synched up together for the overarching purpose of open world pvp and many other auxiliary reasons.

    Are we MERELY the sum of our parts? 1 + 1 = 2, 2 + 1 = 3 and nothing more? I would beg to differ. We come from different countries, are of various nationalities, experience different upbringings, exposed to different cultures, speak multiple languages, are of diverse ethnicity and at times contrasting cultures and even sexual orientations. If you are merely looking at a guild (or more aptly a mere collection of people) being composed of players with their value being measured on a single criteria - skill, that is extremely one dimensional.

    As I have stated, everybody is different and we all bring something different to the table. Unless you are talking about a group of clones, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a guild that is merely the sum of its individuals.

    The various members of the guild individually would have experienced various games in their personal capacities and this experience and knowledge can be shared among the guild.

    Asian gamers, European gamers, American gamers and from all other regions also have differing play preferences and play styles. Are you telling me that just because they are from differing gaming cultures, there is nothing useful to be gleaned from each other, everybody exists in their own little isolated pocket within a guild, we can't have fun and enjoy the company of each other?

    The guild exists to unite these differences in a constructive manner, to find the gems within these differences and to make it more than what each individual is and to direct it towards the common purpose which for the sake of example here is open world pvp.

    2.
    Some people are worth more than others

    "Everyone's their for their own reasons and that may just happen to sync up with each other. The thing is that some people are worth more than others in that regard"
    First off, I fail to see how some people are worth more than others is linked to "everyone has their own reasons and they happen to sync together. Something may be missing in between these 2 propositions.

    Anwyays, are some people worth more than others?

    DEAL WITH IT. EVERY guild has people of differing skill levels and naturally some people play a more significant role. But to discount players/members in a guild just because one is weaker, the other is better, it's the manifestation of being "elitist" in a negative manner.

    Again this whole tag of better/weaker is relative and prone to subjectivity. A weaker player in 1 guild may be as good as the best player in another. He/she may just be weaker relative to players in his/her own guild.

    3.
    Best players have left and pretty much destroyed the guild

    Well it is unfortunate to hear that you have experienced that and I have seen that myself in the past. This is an ongoing process. It happens in every game, it happens ALL THE TIME.

    This is why Aneu is proposing to have established guilds having a stake in the testing phases. And by established guilds, it means a " time proven guild that has a steady amount of players (no heavy through-flow) that have played together long enough to be in sync with their fellow members"

    If the guild was destroyed by the "best players" leaving and it has failed to attract more like minded "best players" into it to equalize the natural attrition rate, then it just means that the said guild's structure was fragile to being with. That does not equate to the guild just being a mere sum of the individuals.

    Lastly, people do have a real life. Players may have to leave a game or guild at a certain point in time be it work commitments, life commitments or anything else that real life can throw at you. You may all meet again someday in another game in another time and be playing against or with each other again under a different banner or the same. Who knows?

    4.
    "Individual's can become the guild and therefore are at the whim of those that want to be a part of the group."

    Well, if you are having that problem, may I suggest that the guild

    1. tighten up recruitment criteria
    2. have a chat with the applicant to see what his/her expectations are and vice versa
    3. a trial period to determine if they are a fit and vice versa
    4. explicitly state upfront what the guild is looking for (eg. people who can play 24/7 etc)

    5.
    "I've lost 'friends' because of pre-mades. Because everyone seems to forget that premades link you up with other pre-mades and at that point it's testing playerskill and sync with each other."


    Is there something wrong with testing playerskill and sync with each other? And " it hasn't made the experience better.... In-fact it makes it worse." ?

    Am I right to say that you do not enjoy playing against organized groups and prefer random matchups all the time? And yet you seem pretty discontent with the players drawn from a random queue just a few posts ago. I'm not quite sure where you stand at the moment.

    Why would these 'friends' leave just because they are in a pre-made matched against a pre-made? There has to be some reason.

    My take in regards to the warplots - It will hard to run a raid with a group of 40 randoms together with all of them unfamiliar with each other's playstyles and expectations. You really do need an organized guild to truly squeeze out the potential of this aspect of owpvp.

    6.
    "i'm flat out wrong with my statement that time =/= sync is calling into question alot of things... "
    "i'm flat out wrong is not only disrespectful, but isn't an actual conversation because you're dismissing completely what i'm saying and taking what you believe to be the highest truth."

    I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that "everything you said" is being dismissed, is wrong etc.

    The tone of the reply was to not make generalizations. Using the moba experience as a proxy and as a base for extrapolation to a guild that involves 40 or more people playing together runs the risk of a higher probability of going off tangent. (note: probability)

    7.
    It's the internet and everybody has their own opinions

    It's often hard to put what you/I feel into words on the internet. Approach each post with a tongue in cheek manner as it is difficult to read how something is intended to be taken. If it makes sense to you, all great, if you dislike it, at the end of the day, we can all be free to agree to disagree.
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  17. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    Meh, I'm not worried. I would be very very surprised to find out that Carbine didn't have guilds already in beta learning the ropes before they start testing the bigger content. The developers have been around the block and I'm sure they have guilds they trust to test both PvE and PvP. Just sit back and relax.
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  18. Xemma

    Xemma New Cupcake

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    Prepare to be surprised then because...




    Contrary to apparently popular belief, guild leaders acctually do communicate with each other and the dev team.

    Edit:
    Also, I saw what was said in the IRC and it's unfortunate this thread is coming off as a beta key fishing one. I'm sure we all just want the game to be tested as well as possible.
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  19. Phunk

    Phunk New Cupcake

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    Everyone is there for their own reasons, sure... but isn't that why you join a guild? because you share a common interest with the players in the guild, thus the logical move is to join a guild where you are surrounded by like minded individuals to form synergy with them and work as one big machine, of course we will always be individuals, but our role in a guild is but one of many parts that make the guild a success which also leads to building synergy with your peers, knowing their play style and adapting to it, knowing you can "take that risk" of leaping into a group of 15 players on your own, why? because you know the other 9-14 (what ever number) people behind you know EXACTLY what you plan on doing and they know EXACTLY what it is THEY need to do at that moment.

    LoL/Dota thing, you misunderstand what i was getting at with the LoL thing, short story, the potential to be a one man wrecking ball IS there, no matter how much you tell yourself it isn't, the truth is, it is VERY possible to carry a game single handedly. For the record i am not talking about ranked 5's because you clearly outlined SOLO Que, in solo que even with a support as an ADC, he could get completely wrecked, because he has that bad game...that doesn't mean you can't outplay your opponent and nullify the effect of your support getting chewed up.

    as for being in premades, you stated you played solo que, what has a premade got to do with it? your initial post stated solo que, the most pre made you'll get in there is 2 players playing together, hardly premade to be honest, and if you're losing friends over a video game...guess what, that's not anyone's problem but your own if you can't handle your aggression correctly to not take it out on your friends/guildies.

    PS, there is no match making aside from ranked 5's that puts Premade vs premade, Solo/Duo Que is...solo/duo (2 ppl together max), even Normal summoner rift doesn't match premades, it has its own MMR that it matches players with, so you could end up with a 5 group of solo's vs a 5 man premade...since it calculates the MMR of the players so each team is within a few rating of each other.
  20. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    I was in IRC when Aneu was bothering Scooter about it. Just because specific guild invites haven't been sent out doesn't mean that there are no guilds in beta currently.
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