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Group Instances and levels of difficulty.

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Draogon, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. Draogon

    Draogon Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's seems pretty standard nowadays that MMO's come with multiple difficulty's for their group/raid content.

    Now i realise they have already mentioned that fact encouters will change week from week. But that is not what im intrested in atm.

    What i'd like to know is your opinions on having a "Gatekeeper" test just like The Secret World did which enabled the player to access "Nightmare" mode of the group dungeons upon completion, but not before.

    See this video for a rough overview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js_S05pIKqQ

    For those that don't know, this is a solo only boss that you can access once you have completed all the group zones on the basic "standard" mode. You then get three options - one for each of the Trinity - healer/dps/tank. You choose and it then presented you with a fight revolving around said choice.

    For example as a tank, avoiding aoe's on the floor, spawning a dps that helps you but you have to make sure it doesn't peel and die (it has/had rediculously low hp - 1/2 shots tops and high dps output). All while making sure you don't die AND making sure you maintain a decent amount of dps and therefore out contribution to the groups we'd be tanking for. (It was a timed kill also)

    Thats just a tank. Each one is different.

    What this whole encouter does is stop just anyone being able to enter harder content without proving they are good enough to do so.

    We've all had someone who just dies, a dps who doesn't understand that maybe, just maybe, backing out from an an aoe is better than trying to top the parse, which results in them dying, again and again or a healer who can not keep anyone up except the person they are targetting.

    This is a pretty solid way of keeping those people out until they learn how the game works at a higher level and keeps the rest of us a bit more sane.

    Again for those of you who didn't encouter this, it was not "easy" by anymeans. But it certainly did its job. Most people spent hours doing it, quite a few people spent days and others just couldn't do it fullstop.

    Also bare in mind EVERYONE had access to every ability like any other player in game.

    Im pretty good with this stuff after years of DDR on contested mobs at endgame and it took me an hour (few mins per try).

    So whats your thoughts?
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  2. Riepah

    Riepah Cupcake

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    I'm all for any type of solo challenge, because soloing is my usually preferred playstyle. Make it difficult, unable to complete with more than 1 person, and have appropriate rewards when it's done - wonderful!

    However, I'm not sure about the filtering aspect. "Keeping people out" isn't a very desirable side effect in my books.
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  3. Draogon

    Draogon Cupcake-About-Town

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    Is it desirable for you to use your dungeon finder multiple times and waste god knows how long re-entering the queue time after time after time because in one group a tank literally had no clue how to tank (and im talking beyond the level of patience here) and the group disbanded or a a dps that was dead on the ground for longer than you ever thought possible, therefore your group couldn't kill a boss .....and disbanded...again...?
  4. Riepah

    Riepah Cupcake

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    I find it more desirable to be grouped up with people who simply can't play, than people who can play but are major jerks. If we start filtering people by skill, we should also filter by behavior - and if you filter crappy players and jerks out, you might just be left with long queue times in your dungeon finder. VERY long times.

    But I suppose trying to filter based on skill rather than simply based on equipment level would be the lesser evil of the two. I've seen so many crappy players with good equipment brought along to dungeons and raids, and so many more skilled players left out based on their worse stuff - even if overall they would've been more effective group members. Especially considering how luck or the lack thereof play a huge role in equipment quality in many games, I found that pretty shallow.
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  5. Draogon

    Draogon Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't disgree. However something i forgot to mention in my post was this Gatekeeper was before you had access to good gear - so not bis group gear or raid gear etc. It was skill based.

    Might be worth noting i never encoutered any boss that was as hard or harder than him either when i played Nightmare difficulty. (In relation to what you had to do during the encouter) Which was amusing.

    But this method would get rid of your scenario, or at least cut it back considerably of encouting geared players who are horrible at playing, they can't get lucky with gear drops etc if they can't access it in the first place.
  6. Riepah

    Riepah Cupcake

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    Sounds like the way they implemented it wasn't optimal, then, but I'm certainly in favor of any solo-challenges. However, rather than basing the dungeon finder on a solo challenge, I'd suggest a solo challenge like this to open the path to more difficult solo challenges upon completion, and basing the dungeon finder on different things instead. For example, after every dungeon run, every participating player would get a little questionnaire, given a negligible reward as incentive for filling it out, and rating his matched party members.
    The ability to rate every party member separately, one vote for skill and one for social competence, and basing the dungeon finder filtering tool upon those questionnaires could go a long way in providing a more enjoyable experience for many players, it'd also add incentive for "jerks" to try and be civilised when using the group finding tool.

    Players who can't play the game properly could get matched up with other similiarly bad players and sent into slightly downgraded dungeons in terms of difficulty, and you could even go and give more skilled players some sort of a "Mentor" checkbox when using the group finder to be grouped up with worse players than themselves in an attempt to guide them through the difficulty appropriate for this Mentor, resulting in better rewards for all participants if they manage to complete it successfully.

    I'm just throwing some thoughts out there. There are a lot of things that could be done to try and improve everyone's experience, without making a group of players feel quite so left out based on their skill level.
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  7. Draogon

    Draogon Cupcake-About-Town

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    I thought it was perfectly implemented actaully. When you are in a group, you have everyone else to lean on some - which is exactly what its all about, helping one another and clearing the zone togther. This just made sure you were up to the task of the very basics of grouping endgame and making sure you would pull your own weight while doing so.

    You should watch a video of each type, it's really well thought out.

    The questionaire is a good idea but would be easy to abuse unfortaunately :(
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  8. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    I think WildStar is actually already doing this, but much more organically and with less emphasis on exclusion if you don't pass a certain test at the end when you hit a level cap.

    If you think about telegraphs as a system, you realize that as players are now playing they are learning things they aren't normally taught in MMOs. Get out of the way. Don't stand in the red cirlces. Move. Stay in range for damage but always keep an eye on what's going on all around you and dodge when you need to. Basically it's just teaching you to constantly be aware of your surroundings as you level up.

    To top that off, at the end of each zone in WildStar is seems they have these challenge bosses and they keep telling interviewers "Now you have to beat this tough fight by using everything you've learned before up until this point, and the higher you get in level the harder they get."

    When I watch the videos, all the combat seems pretty obvious to me. It still looks crazy awesome fun, but I know to dodge and be aware of my surroundings and stuff. Then again, I used to raid in WoW, so I guess I learned stuff like that way back and stuck with me.

    Most games, no one learns that. They play an ENTIRE game through all the way to cap solo. Maybe they do a super easy dungeon here and there where the tank is some twink and you don't even need CC or a good healer... but basically, they don't learn how to do tough content.

    Then the game throws them into end level content and basically it's a trial by fire (which you do NOT stand in).

    It sounds like TSW tried to help these players by putting in the Gatekeeper stuff to get them to learn. It's a good idea, and a nice enough system, but the very new players sound like they'd have some trouble with it. Not to mention if they've been playing a game where they can run around fairly mindlessly from 1 to level cap and then suddenly get thrust into challenge... well, maybe they don't like that. It's too much, too soon, and they feel like failures. Who wants to be frustrated and feel that way?

    If you teach players these kind of things however AS they level, slowly and gradually, they can become MUCH better MMO players MUCH more organically. They won't even realize they are learning! They'll just have tons of fun!

    That's what I hope they are doing with WildStar anyway. Basically making the whole game one long "hard content" tutorial.
  9. Draogon

    Draogon Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think the standard "learn as you play" has always been there, at least in the games i've played it has. I like the end bosses idea though, that alone may sort it out, hopefully.
  10. Fate Flyer

    Fate Flyer "That" Cupcake

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    I agree!

    It's pivotal to me though that, if there are going be tests to determine how good and ready you are to participate in elite dungeons, the tests need to be geared toward what role you'll be taking on in a group. If you're a healer, for example, you don't want to be tested on how well you can DPS or tank something. Not only would that be rather difficult for a healing spec, but it also would be irrelevant to what you'd need to know to progress forward. (So, for example, if you're a healer, a good challenge would be to keep your AI-controlled party alive rather than to attack the gatekeepr boss, and you'd have to learn to roll and dodge out of the way properly as you're doing so.) I believe that's exactly what the OP was getting at though, and so I support that completely. Just so long as that is kept in mind, then I think this could be really beneficial for the reasons already mentioned.

    Also, as Patrician said, if this gatekeeper thing can be implemented somehow as players level, that will help them in the long run and without being overwhelming at the elder game.

    I'm really glad that MMOs now are moving more toward skill-based things as opposed to allowing players to have the best gear and be considered elite only because those particular players have the most time on their hands to devote to running dungeons or PVPing all day long (ie. WoW).
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  11. Dpz

    Dpz Cupcake

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    Personally i like games that challange me to become a better player or i become bored with the game quite fast, I love when the game kicks my ass over and over untill i or we as a group finally figured out how to beat a boss by practice, the reward becomes so much better than just plowing through content collecting loot.

    In WoW i did not play in the best guilds from the start, so we had to struggle and help eachother as players to become better, for me it was more about the journey to down the last boss in the raid, once we did that then i started to care more about the loot, to get stronger for the next raid, those are my strongest memories i got from WoW. (Nerd Screams anyone?) :3

    Was i jealous of those people who was AFK in OG with that sweet endgame loot? heck yeah!, but that only made me try even harder! :)

    Basically i hope for the game to not be molded after the exception that people are bad players, but rather the game teach these players to gradually become better. I think Wildstar is doing this already with the telegraph mechanic wich is great, and i know i will do my best to help new players become better at what they do, simply because i enjoy it.
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  12. Draogon

    Draogon Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's exactly what it does during the healer version.
  13. runamonk

    runamonk New Cupcake

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    Exactly! A great attitude can go a long way with me. Maybe it's just because I am getting up there in the years and I've got a lot more patience than I used too and I have patience for ignorance but I have zero patience for aholes. ;)

  14. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I kind of like the idea of solo challenges adapted to gate/unlock your access to play a specific role in dungeon finder groups refreshing compared to just going by gear ilvl average (which in WoW is even calculated based on overall gear rather than role specific gear).

    Add a requirement of having discovered the entrance to an instance, and a unlock progression through the group content (unlock access to dungeons as you complete the one prior to it, so you access it in a chronological order from easy to harder dungeons).

    Use the achievement for completing all group dungeons to access raid dungeons from the same game volume.

    We have just obsoleted gear ilvl as a dungeon finder/raid requirement filter.
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  15. Taters

    Taters Cupcake

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    Well they have old WoW staff on hand to make sure your attunement dreams come true Siega :)
  16. Draogon

    Draogon Cupcake-About-Town

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    I like the knock on effect for dungeons, i think having visisted the location/entrance is a must. I think the dungeon finder should auto track what you've cleared/killed in each dungeon and allow other people to see this info to better judge you as a player.
  17. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    ^this.

    I hope that will be enough for people not playing bad.

    ...Sadly there're still drunken people etc. or people who are just easily distracted even though they CAN play, saying it's just a dungeon/raid/LFR/w.e.

    But I like that. You learn by doing.

    Yes yes yes. I hate how 99% of the people don't even know where a dungeon stands -_-
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  18. Mizpah

    Mizpah Cupcake-About-Town

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    Only a brief scan read of this thread, however I love the concept here!

    Suitable gating that is an individual test of skill, ideally class/role based could only be a boon. Sure it may be frustrating to some, but knowing exactly where you stand skill wise, vs a 'bar' of some kind is great for player education and filtering.

    If we are going to have a cross realm LFG, then this feature really should help with some of the negatives people associate with such a tool.
  19. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    At what point does making things harder for newbies for our own convenience hurt the game?
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  20. Lyas Tyrell

    Lyas Tyrell Cupcake-About-Town

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    I really feel that the right thing to do is keying people for content. You should have to do WoW style attunements to get into hardmode dungeons/raids etc etc.

    WoW didn't do a lot of stuff right, but I really do think attunements are good ideas.
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