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Guild Alliances

Discussion in 'Guilds, Circles and Warparties General' started by pseudo, Feb 26, 2013.

  1. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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    I will admit to being torn on the idea of 40-man raids... on one hand I'm excited because I've never been really active in these large group raids beyond city raids in WoW and the like, but I am also nervous/wary of the prospect that comes from managing 40 people's schedules so that raids can clear content.

    One way that I think would be a really cool way of at least ameliorating the tentativeness of large raids to guild leaders is by implementing a robust guild alliance system so that multiple guilds (perhaps as many as 4) could combine forces in order to take down these massive encounters.

    Why do we need this? Well, by officially recognizing alliances, the onus of being "world/realm first" becomes less of a concern. Now instead of worrying about whether or not the kill is considered a "guild kill" (in WoW parlance) any guild present and within the alliance will be rewarded with the kill and the rank and eligible for all the benefits associated with the kill (titles/loot/mounts/etc) while not having to necessarily worry about whether their time was wasted.

    This would be great because it would not only foster cooperation and partnership within the guild structure, but also among guilds. Too often when I join a big raiding guild, they become the only people that I talk to within the game -- by adding advanced guild alliance structures, there's a chance that there will be more intercommunication between people from different guilds beyond just the flaming and trash talking that takes place in other games with endgame pve (this goes just as well for pvp guilds as well).
  2. spencerBAXLEY

    spencerBAXLEY Cupcake-About-Town

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    Considering I'm GM of a medium sized guild, I'm all for alliances. Even beyond the PvE benefits, there's the chance to organize GvG events for fun and even coordinating faction combat.
  3. Goreshank

    Goreshank Cupcake-About-Town

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    I would by quite pleased to see a solid guild alliance system implemented within Wildstar. Personally I am much more partial to play in a small tight knit guild rather than a massive raid slaying guild. So from that perspective it would be nice to see a system that encourages a couple of small guilds to work together.
  4. Dragnog

    Dragnog Cupcake-About-Town

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    I guess the question that comes to mind straight away is what do you consider to be a large guild versus a small guild?
    I don't honestly think that is going to be the same for most people.
    Also why do you have smaller groups to come together for larger events? Why is not everyone in a large mega guild?
  5. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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    I don't really think the distinction between large and small has any real relevance here... at least to me. I think anywhere up to 4 guilds banding together is enough to make it a still workable structure...

    And the reason that there isn't just one mega guild is for two reasons:

    1.) People don't WANT to be in mega huge guilds, but still want to see the content! By implementing guild alliances, you get this.

    2.) The idea of trying to figure out a workable guild structure for 40 people sounds like a fulltime job. Seperating the onus of responsibility by even half makes it much easier. Leading a guild is much much more than just leading raids.
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  6. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    So if the world's first Hellscape [random name is random :p] raid is completed by 20 dudes from <Exceptional>, 10 homies from <Kill ALL teh Mobs> and 10 peeps from <Dat's Rite> how should that appear on the leader board? These guilds would need to officially, through the UI, join an alliance and name it and their <Alliance Name> would appear instead of their guilds' names, yes?
  7. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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    I could see something like "Alliance of [guild], [guild], and [guild] on the leaderboards maybe... not sure.

    it might dilute the specialness but I wonder how people would take to it.
  8. Dragnog

    Dragnog Cupcake-About-Town

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    So for you 40 people would be a large guild?
  9. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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    A 40 person raiding guild? yes. absolutely.
  10. Goreshank

    Goreshank Cupcake-About-Town

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    You are right quantifying the terms large or small guilds is difficult because they are subjective, but I agree with pseudo on having little desire to be in a mega guild. They feel impersonal and I join a guild to add a personal feeling to a game, but that's just me.
  11. Pixie

    Pixie Cupcake-About-Town

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    Honestly I'm not really sold on alliances.

    They CAN work, and they probably DO work for some, but I feel there are some drawbacks to consider:
    • The bigger guilds in the alliances tend to absorb members from the smaller ones, which might destroy the work that was put into those smaller guilds.
    • Alliances can be used to "rule" in RVR/PvP, especially open world PVP, and can be used to bypass or undermine the politics the devs have painstakingly tried to establish in the game, which honestly tends to make it less fun for everyone else
    • Some servers will be polarized, raid wise as well as PVP wise
    • Whenever I've been in a good alliance in a game, that alliance ended up taking the role of a guild. Guild chat was dead while alliance chat took it's place. At that point one is better off simply making the maximum players in a guild limit higher.
    • It can be socially confusing
    • It requires the Alliance interface to be both informative enough while not taking it too far, which is tough to balance (or alliances take the guild's role).
    • Alliances also tend to keep "dead" guilds alive way past their time, because the few members that are left "can always just play with alliance members". This is mostly unbeneficial to those players, who might get more out of the game if they simply found a new guild together.

    In general, those who like the idea of alliances and want to utilize the positive aspects of creating alliances between guilds, this can be done with the tools given by most games without an actual alliance interface. Guilds can band together and create their own alliance chat channel, create a website to keep organized and use voice chat to socialize.

    So if you REALLY want guild alliances, and Wildstar ends up not including alliance tools, you can still make your dreams come true.
  12. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    Can you extrapolate on how those are inherently negative things? I find myself unable to imagine how these things would occur and what it'd mean if they did. The other bullets don't actually seem like reasons to forgo an alliance system.
  13. Xpress

    Xpress Cupcake

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    This system, would take away the "specialness" as you said:) of being in the leaderboards i think.
    My guild for example will never have ppl to do a 40 man raid i think, but i will definitely be looking for the 20 man leaderboards.

    I think if you need an alliance with for ex other 2/3 guild to do a 40 man raid, then your probably looking forward to do the dungeon since you cant do it with your guild alone and couldnt care less about the leaderboards, cause u probably would never beat a 40 man raiding guild anyway.

    If you really do care about 40 man leaderboards, then u probably should be in a big guild.
  14. Pixie

    Pixie Cupcake-About-Town

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    It isn't inherently negative. It is all about opinion. Some people will find it fascinating if a server has an alliance "ruling" it, others will find it game breaking, it all depends on opinion.

    My point was just that adding alliances will cater 100% to those that see alliances, with all the changes they make to the social landscape of your servers, positive, wile not adding alliances doesn't mean you can't make an alliance on your own if you so wish.
  15. Shadydemise

    Shadydemise Cupcake

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    I think Alliances are a great idea, especially to deal with 40-man raid sizes. However, like Pixie said, I don't think a robust Alliance structure has to be created by Carbine for it to work. There are plenty of addons that could be made specifically for the Alliance to use. Just because it's an addon does not mean it has to be widely used by everyone. Imagine an addon that allows for easy access to an "Alliance-chat" UI tab, or shows a currently online list of everyone in your alliance. These are tools that don't even have to be acknowledged by Carbine for us to make them a possibility once the game launches. I think the only real features that are necessary to the game prior to addons are a simple creation / maintenance screen and leaderboard interaction.

    Now, while Alliances are great in theory, I feel I should tell you they are much more difficult to maintain in practice. Drama can be a huge factor in raiding "Alliances" when they are actively pushing for competitive PvE. How many people go from each guild? What classes? What if someone sucks? Who are the leaders? Can the leaders cooperate? Who decides your strategies? What about when the strategies are not working? Does loot have to be split between guilds? Are there consequences for a guild not having players show up? Who sits out on fights that are melee friendly? Ranged friendly? Require less/more tanks? These are only some of the issues that I have actually encountered personally in a raiding Alliance (I briefly attempted it for Molten Core in WoW). More often than not, Alliances are great for a casual environment but dreadful for competitive play. While there could be some alliances that work despite the questions I asked, they will most likely act as a cohesive guild unit. For this reason, I generally try to stick to guilds from the get-go.
  16. Ro24

    Ro24 New Cupcake

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    I guess I can add a little something here from my own personal perspective. My first raiding experience in WoW was as part of an alliance between 3-4 guilds. My guild was one of the smaller ones in the alliance, but we never had any problems with defection to the 2 bigger guilds. Overall the alliance operated smoothly and honestly it was a great introduction to raiding. Like Xpress we were never competing for world/server firsts, but everyone there didn't have the time or inclination for that. It was very relaxed and there wasn't really the "loot drama" that I experienced in other guilds later on. I did eventually end up leaving because I wanted to raid a bit more seriously.

    Obviously this could have just been an exceptional alliance or exceptional people but alliances can work and work well. I think that having an alliance system in Wildstar would be positive. Like some other people have said not everyone is interested in being in a super huge guild. Carbine really seems to have the attitude that players should be able to play how they want to play. If you can let people maintain their smaller, more intimate guilds and still get together with others to experience the content that seems like a good thing to me.
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  17. Shadydemise

    Shadydemise Cupcake

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    I think your experience was probably due to an exceptional alliance and a bit more "casual" play-style. Unfortunately, 40-man competitive raiding is just extremely difficult to manage in an alliance. People get frustrated when things don't work and always look for a way to "correct" it. In a guild setting, this usually is handled by the raid leader / officers collaborating together forming a cohesive vision. In an Alliance setting, this cohesive vision can become splintered. A few members from one guild might think they're "better" than everyone else. Or one guild may have extremely different views on how to kill a boss, etc. I'm sure there is at least one example to prove me wrong, I'm just going based on my personal experience in competitive raiding. More often than not, alliances do not work long-term.

    Also, I'm mostly talking about if boss fights are difficult. When I say difficult, I mean spending weeks on the same boss before getting a kill. If Wildstar's raid bosses can be completed within a week and are not as unforgiving as some other bosses I've encountered, it entirely changes the picture behind alliances.
  18. Ayr

    Ayr Cupcake-About-Town

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    All for guild Alliance tools. Big guilds teaming up and working together show us all that gamers can have social skills, tact, and good team-work ability. No reason why gamers shouldn't think big when it comes to teamwork.

    I know for a fact that if you give players the tools to do this stuff, they will make use of it if they can't complete objective alone.

    The tools are mostly like any normal raid set set, but with more Tiers to it, commands etc

    Check out some 'AION siege' vids on youtube, and you'll get to see loads of guilds teaming up and working as one. It's a normal state of affairs because the challenges are too tough for just one guild. Sieges run every day in various locations and at several times to day. So there's no way one guild or group of guilds can monopolise (not since 3.0). You can't be everywhere at once. Most of these sieges are 5 or 6 big guilds and lots of randoms who fill up spare spots. The randoms don't even need vent, you can ping them locations and information easily on their screens, so they can just jump in and go to war.
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  19. Dragnog

    Dragnog Cupcake-About-Town

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    The sense that I keep getting when ever a discussion comes up about guilds is that one size does not fit all and until this point guilds in games have tried to be that.

    I also see that raiding normally has a large amount to do with guilds. Could another approach to be to separate raids from guilds - so you are a member of a guild and also a member of a raiding team? One entity (guild) is more about the social aspect of the game while the other entity (raid team) is about getting raiding done. Could then guilds have multiple raiding teams that could be identified differently on the leader board?

    Has any other game done competitive raiding in the same way that Wildstar has suggested (leader board etc built in)?
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  20. Pixie

    Pixie Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's exactly what I'm thinking, though I couldn't put it into words as well as you just did.

    Leading a huge guild is hard enough with all the drama that tends to follow, trying to co-lead an alliance while maintaining the best interests of "your guys" is even harder. That said, there are some people out there that are born leaders and they tend to shine in any leadership position, be it an alliance or a large guild. I just feel the results are largely the same.

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