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Hardcore Player Vs Casual and game design

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by thrastorm7, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. thrastorm7

    thrastorm7 Cupcake-About-Town

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    The latest trend in several mmo's is the multiple difficulties, the logic behind that is to address the issues of the casual players or if you prefer the hardcore players, in any case i strongly believe that such thing is simply wrong policy, and i ll try to explain my self....

    For starters casual players does not mean in any way incompetent, casual is someone that for whatever reason does not have the time to play as much as a hardcore player and that's it.

    When you try to balance the casual player vs the hardcore player you simply do something wrong. Yes the hardcore player will see the content faster but thats his reward mainly for being hardcore and put some more effort than somebody else that for whatever reason didn't have the time to do something similar.

    By definition it is normal for a casual player to see/experience the content a bit later, depending on the time he has to spend and his skill of course.

    What about those players that don't have the skill to experience some of the content? should we hung them or not allow them to play? certainly not, but on the other hand should not be high demand for those players to see and experience the content at the same time or close to a hardcore and skilful player.

    It is kinda <REDACTED>ed up when for one dungeon there are like 2 or even 3 difficulties, challenge become minimum and the feeling when you clear the "hard" content is all that great...

    By creating multiple difficulties you even ruin the fun from casual players aswell... Admit it or not there is absolutely no reason to play a game that you know in advance how easy it is, simply sux... and at the end no1 is happy... and eventually quit, as it happened to several games thus far...

    And lastly don't forget, WoW's best days were exactly on Vanilla and TbC...
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  2. Elthic

    Elthic Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree 100% with this post. When I played in wow in vanilla I was a casual, I did the 5 mans, I tried to get the .5 tier gear, and that was my endgame. Towards the end of vanilla I started raiding zg, aq20, mc, and bwl once I had more time to play the game. At that point in time I was content with the amount of content I saw, and I felt like I worked hard up to the point I was at. In TBC I got more hardcore and cleared all of the content including sunwell, before the end of the expansion. Each boss was a new challenge, and was very interesting.

    Fast forward to the middle of wotlk and you have Ulduar raid instance. The first instance where hard modes were included that were triggered by the player in the encounter. The first clear through you did everything on normal, but you felt like you didn't actually beat the instance, because you did not do the hard mode equivalent yet. But at least you controlled the instance to see how hard you wanted the fight to be, and I have no problem with that because you are rewarded with better gear.

    Then you have the multiple raid difficulties that you set before walking into the instance. It is the same instance with some new abilities and more hp and damage. It gets very repetitive having to clear multiple difficulties in order to advance.

    I stopped playing wow after clearing all the difficulties in wotlk and shortly into cataclysm, because it felt like each tier was the same, with just different bosses and a new set of gear to collect. Add on that 10 man and 25 man got the same gear, I just became frustrated with the direction of the game. But I was probably burned out from mmos in general at this point as I couldn't get hooked to a new one since then.

    I feel like if you want to see everything in the game you have to work at it, and improve your character to see everything in the game. It shouldn't be where when a patch comes out you hit the raid finder button and you clear an instance in a couple hours the day it is released that just seems wrong to me.
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  3. thrastorm7

    thrastorm7 Cupcake-About-Town

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    i fully agree... that was my point exactly...

    From what i heard wildstar will be a game that will bring the challenge back to Mmo's, lets hope that we ll see it happen!!
  4. Elthic

    Elthic Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am hoping as well, after reading that they want to bring back raiding with large numbers it got my attention that this will be a pretty challenging game.
  5. Erho

    Erho New Cupcake

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    I agree. Vanilla WoW had the best raiding, best communities and most fun I have ever had in a MMORPG. Why? Because there was no cross server queing, and no difficulty modes. Casuals and hardcores coexisted VERY well in that game.

    On a side note - I feel difficulty levels are a lazy way to create more content. It's boring.

    What would I like to see in Wildstar? I would love to see no difficulty levels, tier style raiding/dungeons, and like other parts of the game; reward groups for completing encounters perfectly. This is one game I can foresee making achievements give bonus loot or XP. Very excited.
  6. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I believe it is one of the solutions people have been advocating in one of the threads about raiding, myself included. Raiding where perfection and speed is rewarded with access to more dynamic raid content and the not so perfect completion rewarded with having done it so far.

    Personally I have nothing against a easy mode version (like WoWs looking for raid, where it is pretty much just a larger scale heroic dungeon with better than heroic rewards), since the people who do one are not intended for the other, and if the rewards in gear progression also is significantly not the same, there is not really anything to complain about.


    Maybe with the difference that bosses in easy mode only unlock if the true version have a server kill on it, maybe even with some sort of first guild credit attached, so easy moders know who to thank for extra bosses.
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  7. cali

    cali Cupcake-About-Town

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    I know why games started to introduce different difficulties and that was to allow those that wanted, to pug/lfr it and see the content. The game didn't really change much for me since I always did the hardest difficulty anyway. My experiences with raiding end games is that only a small fraction of the population ever get to kill all of the bosses on the hardest difficulty. Killing those bosses needs to be one of those goals that a raiding guild works towards, there needs to be a reason to kill them which will keep people coming back to throw their faces at the wall a few hours a week.

    I don't mind when games put out multiple difficulties and it's especially nice to be able to pug a raid and gear up an alt via normal modes (but I'd much rather that be a 5-man dungeon job than a starter raid) What I miss from raiding 5+ years ago was not so much the lack of difficulty choices but the requirement of a team to make raiding possible. Most games you don't even need to have any social interaction with your group when you can just click a button and join up via q systems. While LFR is fun a couple times, I now feel completely removed from everyone in that game and have no social ties at all, which is the main reason I'm no longer logging on.

    On a side note: I hate re-released raids. I hated the re-release of Naxx and I hated when swtor waited months to release their nightmare modes. No one wants to do old raids again, if we did we'd go back and do them with our extra levels/gear and steamroll everything. /endrant
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  8. Elthic

    Elthic Cupcake-About-Town

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    I would love to see rewards given out to those who can complete a boss with 0 deaths, or even not hit by a certain raid mechanic in general. And given that there will be the telegraph system in place for this game, not standing in stuff will be highly rewarded. That may be a nice substitute for the different difficulties for a raid.

    One of things that I saw a lot on wow boards was the return of HMs with the ulduar style where you would do something in the encounter to make the boss harder and give better rewards. I like that a lot more than just flipping a switch before the encounter starts.

    As for server first stuff, to me those are turn offs. I like being able to complete everything in a game, as long as I am good enough to do it. Not I am gonna skip work for 2 weeks, so I get a title or mount saying I have no life.
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  9. Elthic

    Elthic Cupcake-About-Town

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    This a times 1000!!!. The preparation to a run a raid, to get in the instance, to make attempts at the boss, to finally killing the boss is whats makes the game fun. Building social interactions with guild mates makes the game fun. To help farm up a certain items so you can withstand a bosses attack, to have enough dps to kill the boss quickly enough, or even just get in the instance itself.

    Now in days people almost expect that on the day of release of a new instance or raid that if they aren't able to complete it or easily get into it the moment it is released its way too hardcore. That is why you see all these mmos dying a month after release they are launched, because people complete everything. Even if they just complete an easy mode version they think they beat it, and don't strive for the next step.
  10. Dyraele

    Dyraele "That" Cupcake

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    I still would rather see random bosses with random extra paths than difficulty levels. To me, just adding more difficulty to the exact same thing is lazy and boring. I would rather have the excitement of not knowing what I am facing next.
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  11. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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    I always love these discussions because everyone holds up Vanilla WoW raiding as some pinnacle of game design. Guys, did you actually play vanilla wow? It was a ton of staying stationary and occasionally drinking when you were out of mana. Handling 40 people is like herding cats.

    But getting to the meat (mmm meat) of the issue: I like multiple difficulties on boss tiers. I don't see the reasoning behind keeping people locked out of content just because they don't have a guild of 9-24 other badasses that have similar goals. Locking people out of content is fine -- I don't expect I'll ever have a full BiS set ever again -- but to think that locking people out of entire patches of content and then explain to them that they just need to play better is pretty much the Gregorian chant of annoying MMO elitists.
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  12. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Yes, I did. :) And I did heal too. We had to heal with teams. One players regens mana, one heals. Then visa versa. And I loved it!
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  13. cali

    cali Cupcake-About-Town

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    This would be assuming that the entire patch was only a new raid. One of my favorite raids that they put out in WoW was the second one innnn Cataclysm ----it was called---I don't remember but you had to fight in a volcano. Also included in this content release was a new set of reputation and dailies as well as new mounts and other shiny things to grind up rep for and earn outside of raids. Balance is key with any content patch but some of the exclusivity that raiding has makes it that much more satisfying when you finally do get in there and kill the boss that you've been obsessively reading the lore about.

    edit: just remembered it was Firelands
  14. Elthic

    Elthic Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yes, and honestly if it wasn't for vanilla and TBC wow wouldn't be the game it is today with the amount of people that play it. Sure wow has things that make playing the game easier such as dungeon finder and now even raid finder that allow players to get in groups quickly and accomplish their goals. These tools destroy communities though.I am fine with a 5 man dungeon finder but the raid finder went a little overboard in my opinion.

    I just don't want this to be another mmo that I play, and find out there really isn't much to do, because everything in the game takes a half hour to complete. There was plenty of content in vanilla and TBC that casuals enjoyed, and when WoW launched people were saying it was the most casual mmo to date.

    And I am hoping they do bring back the large scale raids like they said in a wildstar wednesday, because I miss the days of having a lot of people to complete the content, it makes it fun for me.
  15. Maddog Charlie

    Maddog Charlie Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah sorry couldnt disagree more with some points above.
    Its not that I dont get what you mean or that I dont feel like you do sometimes but for the game to be successfull (as in long term players invested AND maximum appeal to the market) it has to embrace the variety of players out there from the 'first time in an MMO' 12 year old ex-console gamer to the l33tist 32 yr old 24/7 online warrior.

    You might consider yourself an above average gamer but you have to consider those who dont have the motor reflexes some of us do or the hand eye coordination to easily complete missions. Check on the stats, there are millions of gamers who suffer from disabilities and to make the easiest level of a game out of reach for them would be game developer suicide. They have to have difficulty levels of some kind. Wildstar will have add ons and various features to make the game fully available to as many as possible, of that I am sure.

    Im not saying it wont be challenging but youve also got to consider that no MMO is in any way a sport or competition (unless its on a closed Lan system at a show with referees), its simply entertainment and it should give the same enjoyment to anyone playing it. If harder challenges are what you seek then put yourself in the same place as some others, tie your right arm behind your back, unplug your headset and vcoms and drop a dark red filter in front of your eyes.

    Plain and simple there are hundreds of games out there that will never be able to be played by some, through no fault of their own and simply because the developers built bad interfaces. The difficulty of a game should always be the choice of the individual gamer.

    :) I love a good challenge too and hate re-running games but you have to consider the bigger picture.
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  16. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    It's partly nostalgia, partly because WoW was such a fun game for me early on. I can imagine there was a lot of stress on the leader's side, but when you got 40 people working together, there was nothing like it. Of course, I played a tank, so my experience might have been a little less boring than others
  17. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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    What game are we talking about here? Are you saying you're 16/16 HM in MoP? Because if you have, that's great, but the vast majority of people -- we're talking 99.5% of the playerbase here -- are still making their way through the content.

    If you have gone 16/16, that's fantastic, but MMOs can't be tuned for the .5% of its playerbase.

    Edit: Also note that .5% of the the playerbase is actually still a very generous estimate.
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  18. cali

    cali Cupcake-About-Town

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    I had to "like" Psuedo's post, poor podcaster that doesn't get any love :inlove:
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  19. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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    Thanks! haha
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  20. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Not really. Did you have any choice how difficult Mario was? Or how easy Tetris is? Or relating to board games, Risk or Monopoly?

    Another example, EVE. You know it is heavily PvP oriented. Playing that game you know you will get killed eventually. If PvP is not your thing, you should avoid it like the plague. It's a niche game and it's doing fine.

    It's not the gamer who decides how difficult a game is or should be, but the developer. We can cry all we want about it, but if Carbine decides to not have easy mode dungeons or raids, what you going to do? You can not play the game (because it is just not for you), or you can try and play it anyway. With the risk you don't like it.

    People expect Carbine to make a game that suits everyone. Trust me, it won't. It won't have every feature on every difficult level you want. I expect a game that has lots of variety and fun, but at the same time the 'good old' days of mmo's that actually don't babysit you. If it's less then this, I would be disappointed.

    PS. I'm not talking directly at Charlie here.
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