Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Bazeleel, Nov 21, 2013.
Likely the downside is that they'll probably be the weakest AoE healers...
Well I ask again then, what about your tanks and dps? Are they not going to be very effective, either?
Although I even don't think Esper's targeted heals will be so amazing in comparison to non-targeted. For one thing we've seen the telegraph shapes and some of them are rather large (on the SS but even more so on the Medic). Secondly, the Esper's targeted heals have long cast times - which does not make for quick healing, or higher mana costs - which means you'll go OOM faster and in PvP that's going to be a liability. Or the fact that in PvP you'll have several friends that need healing and you can only heal one, compared to the SS and Medic who can heal several. Or let's talk about how 2 of the Esper's 3 builder targeted heals are stationary casts - so your bread and butter heals not only have long cast times, but require you to not move, on top of all the other downsides. Those heals have too many downsides. Really though the freeform spammer is also stationary so poor Esper, right? They may be a good tank healer in PvE raids, although I'm not convinced they they will outshine the other healers in this regard, but they'll be good enough (although I made that point a few pages ago).
Oh I dunno, they're looking pretty good in the AOE department to be honest It depends how quickly Espers can build Psi Points, which look alot like a monk's chi in WoW. Get points -> big AOE heal for 'free'.
Aren't there other ways to generate points than just healing?
The concept may be way out there, but I guess you could put some damage builders into your healing loadout. Just a thought...
It still costs Focus in addition to the Psi points:
Que? They will be effective... You seemed to have misread what I've said or something.
A few are instant, actually. Not to mention the Psi-point instant heals.
I think your problem is you're missing the secondary resource completley. In WoW Holy Paladins have the most expensive heals because their secondary resource lets them cast 'free' heals. This words out as being the same mana wise as other classes (with some variability). If an Esper doesn't use their Psi Points effectively then yes they will do oom, as idiot players do.
Furthermore, PvP tends to be alot of short scenarios, with a few exceptions. 9/10 you will have a moment to regen out of combat. A class that has the best burst (healing or DPS) is therefore really strong (with the exception of utility classes so long as you're in a communicating group).
As for the 'you can only heal one' - go cheak that list you told me to look at. Psi Points = AOE heals. Also, you can take some of your stationary AOE heals, or use the Rainbow Deer, to do some quick, burst AOE healing.
If 2 out of 3 are stationary, then take the one that isn't for PvP, and the ones that are for fights where you have a chance to use them.
There are. Freeform, instant ones too. A bit of damage dealing didn't hurt any healer!
You made the point that freeform skills would not be ideal for use in PvP due to the need to aim at a moving target, thus why you claim targeted are better. I asked, since your dps and tanks also use freeform skills, by your logic they will not be great in PvP, either because their freeform skills are also less effective, correct?
The only mobile builder is a HoT on a 10 second cooldown so you can't really get around the need to use a stationary spammer builder on Esper no matter what you do.
Well for one thing your "burst" is a 3 second spammer several times, which even cast once is long, but you can't even use the builder until after all of that. So yea it's burst, but not quick burst. Also, we already know that fights in this game will last longer and that's an inherent quality of most action combat games. When players can skillfully avoid a large amount of damage on top of mitigation and healing skills, fights get dragged out a lot longer and trying to CC to setup burst on a single target will be less effective as well due to both breakout gameplay and DR. We've seen it in videos, it's been discussed before, and other action combat games are the same. Sure you will have some shorter fights, but for many more evenly matched fights an Esper will have mana issues and they will have issues being so stationary for so much of their healing, making them an easier target.
Hell if you want to take an Esper out of the picture you don't even need to kill them, just get a tank on them to be annoying and force them to kite around which means no healing from the Esper. Or you could also just try to outlast an Esper healer and drain them of mana, there's another tactic that will work faster on them than on other healers.
I'm just saying I think the Esper has some design issues that need to be addressed.
I'd say play the class at the highest levels before assuming they are going to be garbage....
No. I made a point saying targetted spells can be more effective, not that freeform won't be effective, which was what you were previously going on about. So no, you're not correct. Freeform classes will also be 'great in PvP', which includes tanks & DPS. You know, I'm not quite sure where you were going with this one, except, of course, a dead end.
So get non healing builders that are instant, or play smart and LoS build Psi Points.
What 3 second 'spammer'? What are you on about? All the PvP I've seen in Wildstar so far has been largely the same length as non action games. I've not played the game, though, so can't comment further than what I've seen. The stationary thing has been disproven, also. They have no need to stick to stationary heals if you get the right loadout.
Except you'll need to do more than that, since they have alot of instant heals (I'll say it again - Psi Points. They aren't just decoration.) As for mana draining - Espers will have to cast less (less missing) so mana may work out the same.
I don't think they'll have design issues. They are set apart from the other healing classes, and rightfully so. Balancing comes after, seperate thing. Just because you don't want targetted spells, doesn't mean others don't. Play a different class?
I'm pretty sure Leiloni is upset because she/he had their hopes on being an Esper originally and now seeing as they are going to be more the traditional MMO healer had to abandon that plan.
Except Esper doesn't have a lot of instant heals lol. There's a reason why the Devs keep calling it such a stationary class - because it is. The only instant heals they have are consumers which require Psi Points.
Psi Points need to be built up with builder abilities, and those all have 2-3 second cast times (This goes for your dps builders too, I think only a couple of those are instant and not melee). Most of those have cooldowns and the one that doesn't is a 3 second cast time (hence, "spammer", since it will be the primary heal you use to build up Psi points as you may have noticed in the Esper stream).
So your best solution to healing skill issues is to instead not heal and use dps skills instead? Clearly then there must be a design issue if your best idea on how to deal with poorly design heals is to not use heal skills.
Builders will make up the majority of your time on an Esper due to the need to a)use them repeatedly for enough Psi Points, and b)the cast times they all have. So you'll spend most of your time as a dps and just throwing out consumer heals here and there? That sounds more like a support hybrid than a pure heal but sure if that's how you wanna play go for it.
Also no I'm not upset about the Esper. I like the Spellslinger far more in playstyle and the Medic looks like it will be a fun alt class. The Esper just is poorly designed in general and doesn't make sense - in the long run people that play it will have complaints (also I just really like talking about healers so if you have a different topic feel free to bring it up ).
There are instant DPS builders with a 25 & 30m range. There are mobile channeled ones too (non stationary). You also have some utility that generates Psi Points. Ontop of the 10 sec recharge instant Psi Point generator heal. If you don't want to use stationary generators, those are your options. Do you think it would be a good idea to spam Psi Points for amazing AOE healing in PvP or something? Because that would be broken and boring.
The Esper does have more than enough instant heals. It has 6. Well, 7 if you include the inate. We only have a 9 LAS (?) so...
I'm not a fan of spammable AOE skills, no, so using other abilities to charge up my big ones is how I want to play, not to mention using more than one button. If you enjoy non sensical spamming, then go for it (though you might be dissapointed, this is meant to be a vaguely complicated game). I'm rolling a Medic, by the way, that also has a builder system. For me, two resources are more fun than one - takes a more hands on approach.
The Innate isn't a heal, it's an 8 second immunity buff. As for the rest of the instant heals, most of them are either consumers or have cooldowns, so you'll need to use something else in addition to that on your LAS. No there are not 6 or 7. You have 5, only one of which is a builder. Or actually technically you only have 4 heals, since Phantasmal Armor is a 45 second CD armor buff so that doesn't quite count.
You can use Bolster which has a 10 second cooldown to build. Outside of that you'll need to use dps skills as builders if your idea is to only use instant skills, which is not really the intention for a healer. No I don't think spamming Psi Points for AoE healing is a good idea, which is my point. You are suggesting that an Esper can only use instant cast skills which would not be a great idea as I keep trying to point out.
As far as spamming in general, no I don't enjoy it which is why I'm playing a Spellslinger - all their skills have cooldowns. SS will need to give more thought about what skills to use when with those CDs. Sounds like fun. But the way the Esper is designed forces them to do a decent amount of spamming to build Psi Points.
Until we see all the amps we don't know about Psi point generation, cast times, or CDs on skills. Espers could easily be the most OP class right now, or at release. Every class will have weaknesses in healing. The Esper has to be more stationary; the Spellslinger will be limited by CDs; the Medic looks to be limited by range. Certainly not all of their skills have these limitations, but that looks to be the general theme for those classes. This makes playing, playing with, and playing against those healers more interesting.
You had me right here .
When the Devs said a few are tab targeted I was thinking a ratio of the opposite of this. It sounds like the Esper has not been revised for the revised W* like the other classes, and maybe this is why it’s so broken.
I was interested in the Esper, but after the info that has been dropped I consider it way too broken. Luckily W* is in beta, and the Devs can fix this, as well as the resource…if they choose to do so.
All healers have a secondary resource, and according to this
the Medic is more like a combo of the Spellslinger and the Esper. With the advantage over the Esper that the Medic will not have to build up the resource during combat to use it; so they could open with a heavy hitter, and then build up and use the resource during combat.
Having your resource at full at the start of combat, is a major asset.
Well I hope they do change it but I'm doubtful. If you read the Esper AMA they have a lot of good info but I actually asked a tab target vs freeform healing question because I was wondering about it as well and this is what Hugh said:
So he clearly wants to keep them in and has them there intentionally and not as leftover from previous betas. But it doesn't seem like they all think that. In the Stalker AMA CRB_Merkal made a comment regarding how he feels freeform heals are more fun. So right now they have the tab target heals in, and it would likely take a lot of work to change them, but at least they're getting differing opinions internally. Not sure what they'd be able to do, though at this point.
Question from fencer137:
They have 6 other than the innate. One is in the utility section. The innate is a group-wide 100% dmg immunity... I would class that in the 'heals' (support) section. You think heals with cooldowns don't count? Hah! If you're unsure what to do in the 10 second cooldown window of some of the abilities, I have an idea - use another one.
How do you know its not the intention for healer? Do you think healers should heal and nothing else? Medic kinda blows that asumption out the water. I think using your secondary resource for some AOE is a good idea, makes you actually think about when to burn them and when to stock them.
I am not suggesting Esper can only use instant cast spells, I never have. Stop making things up please. I merely pointed out to you that they have 6-7 instant cast spells that they can use after you were moaning they had next to none.
Except I've proven that have more than one Psi Point generating ability. So if using a plethora of abilities is spamming, then you will be doing just the same on Spellslinger. Spellslingers also seem like the class with the least amount of thought, healing wise. Though, obviously, I can only go on what I've seen. If you have only one resource to watch, you don't think about what you're doing as much - everything is always available to you (excluding cooldowns, which all classes have).
Personally, as a healer I dislike having to do damage in order to be viable and seeing as one class is already designed around it (The Warrior Pr...Medic) I don't think that's the goal with the Esper healer. I'm pretty sure that lantern single-target heal is probably your bread and butter point builder.
Lol no it's not, it's a 2 minute cooldown for the Esper, that's it. It's their "Oh <REDACTED>" skill. It makes them immune and gives them Psi points over 8 seconds. Why would you even think that they'd create an 8 second group wide immunity for anyone - that's the very definition of OP. The Esper doesn't really have group buffs in that sense. Even Phantasmal Armor is a single target ability. You don't even know what you're talking about and I see a pattern here. You keep making points and I keep disproving them. Let's review a bit:
You tried to prove 2 things:
1. Targeted heals are more effective than stationary in PvP
2. Targeted are movement heavy loadouts
Number 1 was disproven in PvE by the fact that freeform heals more players for overall more healing, for less mana, on shorter cast times. You tried to throw in the PvP idea until I pointed out that the entire rest of the game aside from Esper healers is entirely freeform. So not only will every player have an equal challenge when it comes to aiming - thus healers needing to aim in PvP is a non-issue, but if you're worried about missing than your enemies will miss your team equally as often when trying to kill them which evens out any perceived issues.
When you mix that with previous point regarding freeform heals doing more overall healing, for less mana and shorter cast times, and any skilled healer who can aim properly (which will be most players in this game cause you won't get very far in a freeform game if you can't aim anything) will be far more effective with freeform heals - at that point there are too many positives for using freeform heals that targeted heals really have nothing to push them over the edge.
Also it's worth noting that this is the intended design for heals in general as many Carbine employees have said already so they are going to continue to make sure this is the case. Sure you can enjoy your targeted, but freeform will always be more effective simply because targeted are easier to use.
You then went on for several posts to try to prove this "movement heavy" idea and I continued to prove you wrong, at which point your argument continued to breakdown. After I disproved your idea that they can be a mobile healer because Esper's several most frequently used heals are stationary, you switched to trying to argue that they can be a mobile damage dealer that uses instant cast heals as Psi points. So already you've given up this first point that they can be a mobile healer. And I'll point out as with the freeform vs targeting thing, that this too is an intended design for the class. Esper is the stationary caster as Carbine has mentioned many times. If that's not your thing, there are other classes to choose from.
Ok, nope, not free this was disproven also via screenshot. Their one big AoE heal costs mana so it's not free and no they are not looking very good in the AoE department, either, unless you enjoy using the same heal over and over for big burst group heals. They have a secondary one that is a buff/heal combo but it's not going to be a big heal due to it having a buff effect, nor a bursty one since it's a heal over time.
More silly arguments:
Well for starters, any Esper that main heals is going to need to use healing builders in order to keep up enough outgoing healing and from what we've seen from the Devs thus far, yes that is their intention. You can't get by on only consumer heals unless you're not the main healer and are only playing a secondary support role. As for the Medic, all of those "Support" skills that do damage ALSO do healing, so they can do two in one. They don't have to neglect their group to do damage and yet again, this is the intended design for the Medic class. Esper was not designed that way - if an Esper wants to do decent and frequent damage, he has to neglect his healing in order to accomplish that.
I think I'm done. I was hoping I'd get a decent discussion here but your post history in this thread is proving otherwise.