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How do you feel about "Limited" Action Sets?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Ingsoc, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah, GW2 really only had 3 choices for abilities... It's just sad that everyone thinks of how horrible it's system was when they hear Limited Action Set.
  2. DMC9920

    DMC9920 New Cupcake

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    I agree and I hope they keep it that way. WoW has way too many abilities. I have all my abilities bound on my mage and I know them well enough that my action bars are hidden. It was still a huge burden getting used to all of them, and whenever I want to play a different class I have to do it all over again. Even though my action bars arent taking up screen space on my mage, I use tellmewhen to track 20 different cooldowns!! That is ridiculous! I am also really happy that wildstar wont have a ton of CD based abilities. I can definitely see people begging to have all of their abilities available at once but I hope Carbine doesnt give in. If you have access to all of them at once then they have to be less powerful right? Otherwise you would be super OP. Not to mention it actually creates boredom because theres never anything to change and you will have all the same abilities as everyone else who is your class. I think the action combat will help fill the void for people wanting the 40 abilities of WoW too. WoW needs a lot of abilities because the actual combat mechanics are so bad.
  3. MrWASDclick

    MrWASDclick Cupcake

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    Well, it's not that WoW's combat was bad, per se... I mean it works. But people want action now, and WoW doesn't provide that because it's about micro-management. That's why there's cooldown timer addons for everything, and binds become so important. Blizzard's best games, ever, of all time before WoW, were Warcraft III and Starcraft. RTS games. And Diablo II. A game with weak movement control and heavy hotkey usage. They're used to making games where hotkeys dominate everything, and action takes a back seat to practiced tactics.

    And I can respect that, even if it's not my cup of tea. I'm not that great with the keyboard.

    Limited Action sets allow for a higher degree of action, however. The learning curve (and reattunement curve) is shallower, allowing players to jump into their role quickly and focus on kicking arse.

    It also makes for some interesting sub-roles in team content.

    Tanks -> Main Tank, Off Tank are classic examples, but they do the same thing, generate threat and get hit. Now we have people who take abilities that CC to use to control the field, those that focus on high threat to pull strays, and those that focus on survival to do the real Tanking. Now we can have Main Tanks, Off Tanks, Rescue Rangers, and Riot Officers.

    Healers -> Tank Healers and Crowd Healers. But now we can potentially have those that focus on buffing, those that focus on debuffing, burst damage prevention (with CC and bubbles), and actual healers. So, Party Starters, Party Poopers, Counterspellers, Single Target Healers, and Crowd Healers.

    DPS -> Single Target Burst, Single Target Sustained, Crowd Burst, Crowd Sustained, DoT Applier. Actually, DPS doesn't manage to get much more out of this. But you might have interesting builds pop up regardless. I'm thinking a "Party pinata" build that focuses on things like the ability in Milestones that apparently makes health globes drop from defeated enemies.

    "But Mr. Click! A player in a non-limited action pool can do all the tasks of one category, making them better!"

    Maybe better individually... But think of a raid for a second. Or sixty. You got your main tank, your main healer. Your crowd healers, your off tank and his/her dedicated healer... And then all those DPS guys. Kinda boring right? "I'm Loves2Pwn863, and I'm a DPSer in my raiding guild."

    But with limited action sets, people can take on a dedicated role, and have a little pride in doing something not everyone is doing. "I'm BadAzzPwnageChicken, and I'm my raiding guild's Crowd Control Specialist. This is Loves2Pwn863, and he's a Tank Killer. Then she's NotADudeIRL, and she happens to be a Party Pooper."

    Sounds a little more fun to me, being a specialist instead of needing to do absolutely everything.
    Zilvoran likes this.
  4. Idn0

    Idn0 New Cupcake

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    I'm not feeling great about Limited Action Sets. At least, the current 7 class skill definition. I realise the benefits from a newbie friendly & balancing perspective.

    Carbine have told us that they want to appeal to the Hardcore, with challenging PvE content for one.

    What about Hardcore PvPers? Increasing the number of skills inherently raises the skill cap. It's easier to master 4-7 abilities, but how about 15? 20? 50? 100? Obviously, there needs to be a limit- but I don't think 7 class abilities will keep me interested in the combat.

    Combat is the #1 aspect PvPers scrutinize when it comes to a new MMO. If your combat system is not:

    A. Fluid/Dynamic
    B. Mobile
    C. Complex / High skill cap

    Then people get BORED or don't even bother trying the game to begin with.

    A and B seem achieved, from what I've seen. C, not so much.


    I would like 10-12 class abilities. -"Fundamentals" -Damage spells, CCs.
    4-10 utility skills. -"Situationals" -Buffs, Large cooldowns, miscellaneous.

    Obviously until I play the game I can't be certain on how it feels. But extrapolating from the info we've been given.. i'm apprehensive :confused:
    Sol likes this.
  5. kuunkulta

    kuunkulta Cupcake-About-Town

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    I love it! Before I started playing wow, I played gw1. That game has 8-slot LAS and it works much better than gw2's raped version of it or wow's (and most other mmos') system that require at least 12-button mouse and 200eur keyboard. Anyone who has played gw2 knows the LAS is designed so that a 5-year old could play the game as efficiently as 30-year old enthusiast. Gw1 required you to think about your choices and that's how I hope Wildstar will be. Seriously, look up gw1 gameplay vids on youtube, I dare you to!
  6. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Heresy! I have 26€ keyboard!
  7. Chronometer

    Chronometer New Cupcake

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    I have to jump on the band-wagon here, I am absolutely fine with the LAS system.
    I am not convinced that less buttons to push necessarily means less depth or freedom, I think it forces players to make meaningful choices, and probably allows more niche specs too.

    It all comes down to playstyle, and what emphasis you put on different aspects of your combat, I can easily see two Stalkers, with completely different playstyles, one might be more focused on CC'ing you, whereas another might be all out burst, and they make for completely different beasts in PvP for example, so even if you see Class A out in the wild and go for him, his loadout could a lot different than the previous player of the same class you encountered, making for more varied combat.

    One of the things, from a PvP point of view that always annoyed me in WoW, was that 7/10 you knew exactly what to expect from a certain class.

    What I wouldn't like to see is something akin to LOTRs system... I had so many buttons I didn't even know where to begin half the time.
  8. kuunkulta

    kuunkulta Cupcake-About-Town

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    Whaaaaat?!? Blasphemy! Guards take this man away! Your Aurin overlord commands it!
  9. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    I feel hungry.
  10. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    I got no issues with a limited action bar since we are getting dodging as well. A lot of your attention span is going to be diverted for that purpose, so no loss imo. Also, if we are honest even in WoW you might have 20+ keybinds on a character, but generally you primarily only used a handful most of the time.

    Many skills I had bound were primarily only for PvP. If I had to switch some skills around for pve and pvp, then again there is no loss.
  11. Mellkor

    Mellkor Well-Known Cupcake

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    Indifferent.
  12. Grim Fandango

    Grim Fandango Well-Known Cupcake

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    Considering that even in games like WoW where you have a ridiculous number of abilities, I rarely use more than 6-8 on a regular basis. So the LAS style of "deck building" is perfectly fine for me. Not only does it keep things manageable, it doesn't make me feel like I'm somehow not playing to my full potential by not spamming every ability I have (even when I'm well aware of the fact that I'm doing everything properly anyway).

    Not only that, but it makes sure that allows characters to feel different from one another despite the relatively small number of classes. Sure, there'll still be cookie cutter builds, of that I have no doubt, but for people who don't give a fudge what the optimizer crowd alleges to be the flavor of the week, it'll be pretty awesome.
  13. dizko

    dizko Cupcake-About-Town

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    I like the way you describe it as "Deck Building" that makes it seem significantly more interesting to me. They should totally use that when they talk about the LAS.
  14. Split_Light

    Split_Light Cupcake

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    I've been playing The Secret World recently, which has a limited action set, and am really enjoying it. I enjoy the strategy of figuring out what powers to pull out for a given situation. It's a lot more fun for me then flailing for that one power that I don't use quite often enough to give a macro, but need just this one crucial time.
  15. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    I am sure LAS can be made fun and engaging in PvE content, no doubt of that. What I am not sure is how will they make PvP engaging especially on higher levels, keep fights interesting and make it easy enough to distinquish more skillfull opponent.
  16. Grim Fandango

    Grim Fandango Well-Known Cupcake

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    If they're continually kicking your butt no matter what you do, chances are you just distinguished someone more skillful than you. :)
  17. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    Also all the dodging and jumping may be more important in PvP than large set of buttons which you won't have time to reach for. (I'd like mechanics which can let you be invisible for a second and a half every 3 seconds to introduce craziness to the pvp :) )
  18. Mel

    Mel Cupcake-About-Town

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    I feel a little bit better seeing that they added +1 more button to the LAS......up to 8 now
  19. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Haha I understand your crude example but that just is not true in any way. One of the reasons I quited WoW was PvP balance. I grew tired as warrior to be either God or Carbage. Anyways to my point; PvP balance in WoW at the moment is utterly atrocious and it has been whole expansion.

    You can take Beastmaster Hunter as a example. BM Hunter's pet actually does more damage than the hunter him self, it can not be kited away and can hardly be CCd off. At the moment one could say BM hunter is the easiest class to play at high ratings. They have incredible toolset of instant CC, very good movement impairing effects, incredible pressure damage and and burst. If you go against a hunter team as a non hunter team you are already behind in the game just because you didnt bring a certain class. If I on my warrior could not out damage, out CC, our burst how can I win the game? Even if you outskill the player majorly you will most likely loose cause bad balance. Anyways too long ansver to your post.

    Tldr1; If someone is winning you over and over again, it ain't always case of enemy being better than you. It can be a case of very poor game balance.

    Back to the subject of how to see skill in Wildstar PvP. What I am afraid that with very little abilities, the games become more about grinding unhealable damage or pressure or outhealing it. I do not in anyway want the bloated amount of skills WoW has, but 8 is quite alittle.

    Lets take a little PvP scenario (WotLK):

    2v2 game Arms Warrior+Holy Paladin vs. Resto Druid+Rogue. Game has gone quite equal so far and both teams are starting to go low on mana. Warrior continues training rogue and swiching targets so the druid has to HoT 2 targets and use twice the mana. Warrior team has noticed that his game will not be won by CC or Burst but with mana war. Druid is starting to go OOM. Druid runs towards pilar and pops Innervate, but he does this before he is out of line of sight from the warrior. Warrior notices this, uses focus charge on the druid, switches to Shield+1H weapon and dispells druid's innervate with Shield Slam as the druid forgot to protect it by fully hotting him self. This causes druid team to lose as their team will be out of mana for next 3 minutes. Their team just got out skilled.

    Now let's say we remove some skills from that picture? Remove charge and sure, warrior can maybe still get to druid even with Cripling Poison on him if Paladin uses Blessing of Freedom but Druid will get considerable amount of mana back. Now lets remove blessing of freedom? Warrior will never get to druid as he has no charge and he has 70% slow from the rogue. Now as that wasn't enough let's remove Dispell from Shield Slam. Druid uses innervate, and all warrior can do is to grind mindless damage on the rogue and hope he can out damage the team.

    That is what has basically happened to warrior class in WoW. They ripped all the utility from the class and things that used to make the class fun. They gave back to the class incredible burst, little CC more (Wich is hard to be used as they took away Intercept) and quite big chunk of static damage reduction. Sure warriors have been insanely OP in MOP but even then I did not play the class more than few games. They removed abilites from the class to make it easier to be played and more reactive, same time they managed to make the class the most braindead and boring class to play in the whole game. This is comming from person who has absolutelly loved his warrior for 7 years but can not bare to play it anymore just due to how boring it is.

    tldr2: My fears for PvP is that with only 8 class abilities PvP becomes more about grinding damage instead reacting to your enemys abilites and playing a game of chess in your mind. Anticipating enemys movements, and countering them before they can realise it. I fear that the game becomes boring in PvP with only 8 class abilities in use, even with alot of movement included in the games.


    Edit: Note to self, you have to learn to make your self understood with less words.
  20. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think with less abilities it will become a little less a chess game and a little more an action one which would be a great compromise (I don't like chess that much to be honest).
    Apostate likes this.

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