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How do you feel about "Limited" Action Sets?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Ingsoc, Feb 13, 2013.

  1. TeoH

    TeoH Well-Known Cupcake

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    I should have phrased that as 'Cliquing', but you know what I mean. Want to see something amusing? I can do that Paladin toolset on 1 button.

    Flash of Holy Shocking Light

    - Hold the ability hotkey to perform a single target casted heal. As the button is held down the amount healed increases significantly, and mana cost increases slightly, up to the maximum of 3.5s cast time.

    - If Flash of Holy Shocking Light is tapped (<0.5s) or pressed while moving, an instant small heal will be cast on the target. Using this instant heal will trigger a short cooldown, during which time the ability can not be cast instantly, but will still allow charged healing casts.

    Bam, 3 or more WoW heals on 1 button, you actually have more choice in that 1 button than a Paladin gets in TBC as you're able to set both the casting time and healing amount on a sliding scale. Promotes pre-charged heals that are released as soon as the tank takes damage, allows players to repond to the precise amount of health lost without overhealing. Effectively performs the job of 7 different hotkeys bound to downranked heals.

    WoW needs a lot of buttons because WoW has rubbish buttons. You have less control and player choice per button in WoW than in any other game I can think of in the couple of seconds I spent considering it while writing this sentence.
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  2. Hellspawnx

    Hellspawnx Cupcake

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    I think I can help you with your inquiry... Coming from WoW for several years then going to GW2 it was a change to say the least. I went from playing a Warlock / Disc Priest with nearly 15 abilities I used regulary too now only using 10 abilities. I thought at first this was going to be limiting but one thing I didnt take into consideration is WoW requires all those skills to make the game complexe too play because they dont have a movement action style combat system.

    With the introduction of Dodge and ability combo's it actaully made the gameplay as complexe as what I was use to in WoW but just in a more entertaining manor. It was fun to have a challenge in the form of combat, movement and enviroment awareness, rather then cool down and mana management.

    Now take wildstar, which has a dodge mechanic like GW2 but remember unlike GW2, wildstars dodge is more difficult to master, WS dodge requires you to be out of the damage area to avoid the damage, where as in GW2 dodge even though it gives you a dash roll animation actaully just makes you invunerable for a split second during the mechanic.

    So Wildstar has a more difficult to master dodge, now add in fight mechanics that are going to utilize double jump and sprint, which as a result makes eniromental and boss mechanic awareness a unforgiving misstress. Therefor wildstar has a limited action set but a higher skill cap. Now bare inmind this is purely going off second hand information and videos, but from what I seen from a level 30 boss fight the mechanics really do replace the need for alot of abilities on the skill bar.
  3. o336ws

    o336ws New Cupcake

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    I'm under the impression, having played EQ from standard to Luclin, that casters in EQ had limited spells ONLY because melee classes had like 6 abilites to use and it would be completely unfair if melee had 6 abilities while casters could use their whole spellbook.

    That said. I hate limited action sets because they do the opposite of what people actually think they do.

    A lot of "pro LAS" arguments are that it increases strategy, picking your skills based on the encounter. That actually doesn't increase strategy at all. Everything in MMO's boils down to math and a 0 sum system.

    Does this ability as it pertains to this encounter either A: increase overall DPS or B: decrease overall damage taken. You simply identify what is more important to your group/raid at the time and select the ability you need. That's not a "choice." That's a hidden decision you need to make, but you can't even make it before you've died on the encounter. That's where LAS fails. It requires failure before you get to make those decisions, because if you didn't fail, then whatever you had on your action bar was good enough and no choice was made.

    In a non-LAS system, like WoW, you make these decisions in REAL TIME, which is way more "action combat" oriented than dying to an encounter because you had the wrong skills on, loading better skills and defeating it.

    Should I continue to spend a limited resource on more damage when we're slowly dying or should I use that resource for CC/shields/heals/etc to effectively decrease the damage we're taking? I have the remainder of this fight to fine tune the appropriate ratio of dealing damage or mitigating damage. That could be 5 seconds (wipe) or 5 minutes (possible victory/possible wipe).

    LAS systems limit player input and that's rarely a good thing.
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  4. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    Except I had numerous ranks of every heal on my bar. So those 3-4 heals were more like 9-12.
  5. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    As others have said, you cannot compare games and abilities that are built on unlimited hotkeys to ones with limited hotkeys, especially when you include aiming and dodging requirements. The key is thinking beyond just your skills, but also to think about your party's/raid's available skills, and how to maximize them to overcome the situation. In a game like WoW, if you get an add, with every class having a CC you just have whoever is not CCing at the time use their CC and you finish off the other mobs and then kill the add, very easy decision that is easy to execute with the obvious tool.

    Now in Wildstar, you might have only allocated X amount of CC among your group, but you might have slow on one of your abilities and a party member has movement abilities that could now kite that add, or have a ranged class switch off threat with your tank, you also might just have someone tank it with the defensive CD they have slotted. I find the non-obvious and creative decision making much more interesting.

    If you are worried about PVP combat with 8 skills I highly suggest you try out the game Smite, it is a MOBA with a 3rd person view and WASD movement. You have a max of 6 abilities (4 from your character, 2 from "optional" active items) and your basic attack, but every ability is a skill-shot. Many abilities have dual purpose and differing effects based on resources or multiple key presses. The game is all about properly using your skills in tandem with your allies, as well as avoiding/countering your enemies and it provides plenty of engaging decisions.
  6. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    If something is difficult you should not beat it on the first attempt, no matter what your build is. You will have a standard all-around set-up for your first attempt, likely erring on the side of caution with more support/CC/survival than dps so you can experience as much of the fight as you can, but again this is your choice how you go about your first attempt. Even within your first attempt you can make decisions on how to best utilize your group's abilities, but you will likely wipe. After the wipe you adapt, and that is where the strategy lies. Sure, the math might boil down to needing X damage, X healing and X seconds of CC, but how fast you figure it out and how your group allocates those requirements is the decision making. Some groups might concentrate their CC/utility on a smaller groups of players, while other groups might spread it out.
    Except those decisions really don't exist in WoW. CCing is available to every single class, sure they have different types of CC, but if something that you can CC needs to be CCd you do it, it is an easy decision and relatively easy to execute. If you are healing as an off-spec it is likely your raid is going to wipe as you are bringing inefficient healing and low dps, again assuming we are discussing difficult encounters.
  7. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

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    If all abilities do A or B then the choice begin to exist :D And the part on failure is dull, how a WoW system is "safer" than a LAS ? In nothing, if your have all the skills on earth on your bars and still do the wrong thing you will die, this isn't an acceptable point.

    I will assume you re talking about PvP here because these concerns are non sense PvE wise. I think a LAS system implies decisionmaking even before the fights, and therefore rewards strategy and planification, do you try to cover all possibilities and will you go on an all in spec that can't survive pretty much against everybody out here?
  8. Dende

    Dende Cupcake

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    Can anyone tell me how the LAS system works?
    Are you able to switch between spells during combat / out of combat? ( what would be pretty OP)
    Do you have to choose and fix your LAS - Spells at your trainer etc
  9. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    You most likely can only switch them out of combat and for free. Like in Diablo 3 game.
  10. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    You acquire new abilities through various means. I'm not keen on all of the methods, but it does vary. You can't switch out abilities in combat, but out of combat you can.

    I also believe Carbine will allow you to save certain ability sets too, or at least I hope so.
  11. Isgu

    Isgu Cupcake-About-Town

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    Don't think you need a trainer to do so, I think you simply choose which spells/abilities you want to use while you're ooc and that dictates your role. That's what I gathered anyway, I could be wrong.
  12. Dende

    Dende Cupcake

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    I really dislike the option to switch LAS ooc wise.
    It will be even more a hassle in for example arenas to build endless makros for switching LAS spells to counter the enemy team. You just have to CC the enemy for enough time, run behind a pillar, get ooc and switch LAS spells , thats retarded
  13. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    In PvP matches, especially arena, switching will probably be locked.
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  14. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    very much correct - believe that Jen Gordy/Bardic has stated such.
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  15. Crybone

    Crybone Cupcake-About-Town

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    To me LA means that the player need to make a choice. It also make you feel that your action set is unique and that you find the combination of skills that suits your playstyle the most.

    The downside is that you need to choose, and compared to a action bar with all spells setup you have less choices. Though a LA can in many cases allow a wider array of low cooldown spells which makes the combat more fluid in my opinion.
  16. Stavros Saristavros

    Stavros Saristavros New Cupcake

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    Weather LAS will be good will depend on relly how many abilities are in the LAS.


    If its limited to say 6-8 abilities then it will be poor imo.
    Small number of abilities dumbs combat down as well as does not give enough options for a dynamic combat system with adequate choices imo.

    If its say 15-20 abilities then i think it will work well. There are plenty of different abilities to choose from and use making combat more challenging and dynamic.

    Games like WOW, SWTOR etc have a very large selection of abilities for each class.

    It makes you think and react to combat on the fly and choosing the correct abilities or chaining together the correct rotation while under pressure is part of the skill factor.

    Not using optimal rotations or not using correct abilities for the right situation will lead to decreased success in combat.

    Having said that there can be too many abilities. Having to hot key 40+ abilities is silly b/c it over complicates the classes as well as the more abilities there are the harder it is to get balance correct.

    To summarize if the LAS has 15 or so abilities then i will be happy.
  17. Wretched

    Wretched Cupcake

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    So the MMO games that I have played the most would be WoW, SWToR, Rift, GW2 and TSW. I list these only to illustrate that I have played both games with many abilities and some that limit you.

    Frankly, I like unlimited action sets. I like to have the abilities I use most at easy reach of course, but I also like to have the lesser used abilities a button away as well. As situations evolve and change I like to be able to react and adapt on the fly.

    The LAS is actually the one thing about the game that has me a little meh, almost everything else makes me giddy. It wont make me not play the game, but as a QoL thing, it makes me a little sad.

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