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How do you guys feel about 'resistance' heavy raids?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by MeakGG, Mar 28, 2013.

  1. MeakGG

    MeakGG Cupcake-About-Town

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    Most EQ and Vanilla WoW raiders know what I'm talking about, but I'll give a brief description for those who joined the MMO scene later.

    In Vanilla WoW, there were two fights in the game that required actually resistance gear. Rag, and Huhu.

    In order to kill Rag, for the first few months (until you could steam roll him), you had to have (depending on role) a certain amount of fire resistance gear. This would completely gimp your DPS and heals (although healers used less resistance gear than DPS) at the cost of more survivability.

    In order to kill Huhu in AQ40, you had to have a pretty high ammount of nature resist gear. This meant farming grubs in EPL for crafting, using DKP in AQ40 early bosses for NR gear, in preparation for the Huhu 'gear' check. If I remember correctly, she had an AOE spam that hit the closest 15 players with some intense nature damage, and it slept them for 10 seconds or so. So you had to have 15 up close, ready to get hit, and then as she cast the spell, back up slightly. Get hit, slept, and have 15 new players move in to soak the second hit. It's been like 8 years, so I can't remember EXACTLY, but you get the idea.

    The reason I thought this was one of the most amazing parts of Vanilla WoW, was because it utilized the resistance mechanic. An idea completely foreign in modern WoW. This also promoted going back, at level cap, to earlier dungeons, with guildies, friends, and random players, to acquire resistance gear! It was so fun! You would farm Nixxon for the trinket in Mauradon, and place most of us thought we'd never see again. Or hit LBRS to kill the firelord for the belt or wrist or whatever it was. You would get teams collecting nature essences for crafting, and you were running ZG20 more so people could get patterns or rep for LW and Tailoring nature resistance gear. I even awarded guild member DKP based on their effort collectively towards the guild's overall goal of getting NR gear. You have 180+ NR gear by raid night, that's 200 bonus DKP...

    Those types of things are long and gone. We saw a slight variation of it in Naxx25, but this was a remake of the Naxx40 (vanilla) raid, and I believe less than like 2 people saw saph back then. (Obviously higher, but still insanely low amount)

    My question to you guys is, how do you feel about this type of mechanic actually weighing in on raid content? We are going up against a huge mech boss that threatens the order of wildlife on Nexus... and has frequent aoe burst of "tech" damage or whatever, so in order to survive this ability, the guild/raid must collectively hit older zones to farm "tech resist", our miners are out hitting nodes and changing their PH plugs for more ingots to build mechanized bucklers. Herbalists are gathering anti static leaves... I mean, based on the idea that those are what professions resemble...

    I just feel like it brings a whole different aspect to PVE. I'd love to hear your guy's thoughts on this! Sorry for the long post! I got a little caught up for a second there!
     
  2. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    I like it :)

    Maybe i'm weird but a part of me really enjoys scrounging around the world for resist gear, farming mats to craft things, scouring the trading post etc. Its the cool sense for me of 'getting prepared' for the danger ahead :sneaky:

    Its adds some nice variation to boss fights, I wouldn't want a ton of them but I definitely like the contrast.
     
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  3. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    I think it could be used today with great effect if it was implemented right and completely revamped.

    For example, giving up your hard earned epic gear for one fight is very poorly designed. However, making players go back to old zones and traverse for the world collecting something special for a big fight is fun everyone can enjoy.

    Perhaps it could be special tech you attach to your armor, or a special type of armor enhancement/enchant. That could be a lot of fun I think if they avoided the whole "wear this lame set of odds and ends because your hard earned über gear is useless for some reason in this situation" mentality. ;)
     
  4. Corinthar

    Corinthar Cupcake

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    It's a good idea, but these days I'd expect that the farthest they'd go down this road would be to have a certain path's skill be useful, rather than a necessity.

    Much as we might hate it, MMO games have become more and more accessible as the years since vanilla WoW have rolled on. I can't see a Dev hurting their playerbase by heavily leaning on this mechanic, especially when they are looking at changing raid content weekly to challenge people in different ways.

    It took my guild a month to get enough fire resist gear on their MT/OT and healers to be able to complete MC. That kind of mass grind is in the history books now, IMHO.
     
  5. InnocentCivilian

    InnocentCivilian "That" Cupcake

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    THat's a very cool take on the idea with a modern design sensibility. ^_^

    Rather than just previewing high-level content in low-level zones, I really like the idea of low-level content being necessary for something in a high-level zone or raid. :p

    The devs did say that they had quests that send you back to low-level zones, so hopefully they already do stuff like this and weren't referring only to the 'high-level' stuff in low-level zones like the Focus of Air (man, this gets confusing to read :p).
     
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  6. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    No thanks. It's an artificial source of difficulty in a raid encounter and an artificial block in progression. I'd much rather that a boss be challenging due to the complex, dynamic nature of its mechanics, not because it takes a while to farm up X Resist gear.
     
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  7. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    Yeah it kinda seems to me like a different type of attunement but less interesting.
     
  8. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    I love the concept of resistances... using that as a strategic option against a boss always felt satisfying!

    I see the problem, though, in a vertical progression game where it fails to be the better option as stats scale upward (and pure dps or other defensive stats become the better option.) It's hard to make it and keep it relevant, without it just being a "gear check" and a content gate, which I think is why Blizzard removed the whole resistance system from the game.

    But I miss them, and would like to see them be relevant somehow.

    I always thought the idea of "environmental" resitance such as to weather or poison or something could be a neat thing.

    Think about The Empire Strikes Back where Luke is out on Hoth. Or Obi-Wan on Tatooine. They had special clothing that protected them from the elements, or they would have died. Maybe they could have survived without the gear for a while, but not as long.

    But what would the tradeoff be? Maybe move faster vs. live longer? I'd like to see entire MMO zones make players consider things like this, in addition to tactical use of resistance in fights and potions.
     
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  9. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    I've actually wondered when more games don't do this in general... I mean fighting fire elementals should be impossible with fire, but easy with ice + fire res gear, which is was in WoW for a while. As Partician said though, it needs to be designed for, one of the problems in WoW is that resist gear was very rare and often low level with no other stats.

    While I haven't heard anything about resists in WildStar, 'they' did say somewhere that raidbosses at least would require players to change tactics (possible by changing your limited action set), so you never know, maybe (and hopefully) there is some special gear that you need for certain bosses, or that at the very least makes certain bosses easier.
     
  10. MeakGG

    MeakGG Cupcake-About-Town

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    Great feedback guys!

    I will say that I wouldn't expect this to be anything more than a fight here and there.

    I would also like to add that if Wildstar holds true to their intentions of creating challenging content, I don't see how this would be an artificial source of difficulty. That'd be like that a gear check in a future raid is an artificial source of a challenge. The challenge is acquiring the proper gear. It's not really any different than the inability to kill boss S because you haven't earned enough gear from boss R and Q. With the exception that in this particular encounter, you had to experience the world you grew up in again.

    Side note: Rag and Huhu were by no means "easy" back in the day once the appropriate gear was acquired. And our Princess Huhuran kill is my absolute best WoW memory, because of the official challenge of mechanics, topped with the experience of earning all the resistance gear. Just my two cents.
     
  11. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    I'd like to spend time find solving that though, because if we do, it opens up an entire layer of strategy that can be applied to the fight... instead of just another boss with greater HP. I agree it's difficult to not make it feel like a gate... but, I think it's worthwhile for developers to spend time on the problem.

    Ghostcrawler did a good job of explaining the problems... but also the potential:

    I'm particularly fond of this part:
     
  12. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    I would like to see something like this be coupled with what Lethality mentioned and make it less about "required" and more about choice. For example, everyone needing to acquire Eldan tech for a fight that suped up their run speed for an encounter that would make that fight (a movement heavy one) much easier, however, the trade off would be their DPS overall would take a hit, and the fight might take longer.

    However, on the flip side they could avoid this choice and go for a buff to the DPS, but they wouldn't have the mobility advantage and would have to hope they could burn that boss down before too many of their members were killed in the battle due to how fast paced it was and how normal run speed just wouldn't always cut it.

    When you make it about trade off, and choice, suddenly it becomes a lot cooler I think.

    EDIT: haha, and now I see Ghostcrawler's quote above as I wrote this kind of said it all a bit better, yeah.
     
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  13. Deltre

    Deltre Cupcake-About-Town

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    I liked it, because it also prevented people from simply blowing through content. Resist fights forced guild to kinda stop for a bit in raiding and prepare for a fight. Also, it gave professions some added importance with crafting resist gear.
     
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  14. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    One thing I liked about some of the gathering of resistance was, like for the Huhu fight, we were even going back to places like Maraudon looking for the odd piece of nature resist gear that we knew came from there. It had us working as a guild in groups going out into the world to scrape up what we could.
     
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  15. Vembumees

    Vembumees Cupcake-About-Town

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    In vanilla wow exactly mechanics like that made the game feel alive, people had to farm a lot of stuff around the world, which made the world alive, caused a lot of fights, PvP and socializing. Removing all kinds of different elements needed for the endgame removed all the need to move out from the city after levelcap.
     
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  16. Mizpah

    Mizpah Cupcake-About-Town

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    I recall the HuHu fight with equal measures of trepidation, amusement and frustration. I also *really* don't like wasps.

    The resistance mechanic was a good one. The hair trigger for balancing dps and resists was a little fine tuned, (i.e at times it felt flaky) and I agree that dropping the amount of DPS lost through item replacement felt - well icky.

    However it caused guilds that wanted to progress to stop, think and work together - that was great.

    So all in all, good mechanics, the fight needed co-ordination and execution alongside effort from every player. The 'tipping point' for a kill always caused excitement before it was on farm.. With better execution of itemisation (note I don't say a 'reduction in effort required') I would be strongly in favour of the occasional resist fight. From a design perspective if this is something along the lines of a midway boss in a dungeon it also helps with gearing a group, as you have some kills to rerun whilst working on it.

    PS: I think I recall that the stinger was an upgrade to me!
     
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  17. Synthetic

    Synthetic New Cupcake

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    I personally like resistance geared fights. It gives your guild a goal and benchmark to set in order to progress through a fight. Example being, you have both the drive to get the gear, the dps to suceed with resist gear, and the skill to pass the fight. The block in NAXX40 wasn't Saph being a resist heavy and hard fight, the block in NAXX40 was how hard EVERYTHING was. I still feel that burning crusade was the pinnacle of raiding. The content was accessible, but not easy, the fights were epic, and Mother gave us that resist fight, RoS the DPS benchmark. That is the type of raiding I miss. It would have only been better if it was all 40m content. That said I am really hoping that these are themes that carry over into wildstar, I see this game being a great success if it is executed properly. It has humor, fun factor, and some beautiful environments and unique concepts, or ones that are currently looking far more thought out that its predecessors. (Player housing really wow'd me.)

    I vote YES for resistance raids, I have a feeling the dev team will be able to properly balance the encounters to be challenging and fun without feeling like the resist is just some gimmick they tossed in. If any raid can he as fun and challenging as Black Temple, and Sunwell were without being infuriating, I will be in love with this game for many years to come, unless ESO manages to create a miracle game, though I don't think it is going to achieve what the fans want (ESO that is)
     
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  18. Mizpah

    Mizpah Cupcake-About-Town

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    Synthetic,

    I like your comments about 40 man Naxx - But I would also call it the pinnacle of raiding. Sure it was (very) hard at the time, and we certainly did not complete all of it -- but the satisfaction of being in their and killing stuff was epic. I have no wish to derail this great thread on resistances - but I would like to argue that there is room for a raid instance(s) of greater difficulty than the norm within any given expansion - especially once there is a range of raid content for players to choose from.
     
  19. Joukehainen

    Joukehainen Well-Known Cupcake

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    It can be a cool way to have some variation in raid boss mechanics. Wasn't too fond of the way it worked out in Lotro: you would have to go back to wearing inferior gear obtained from easier instances during the end-game raid for MoM bc it had shadow res. Your better gear that you got from the shorter, one-boss raid you didn't want to wear bc it didn't have shadow res. Kind of sucked.

    On the other hand, if it's just for one boss in a raid, not the whole thing, then I think it's a pretty good idea, even if that means you have to grind consumables to some extent and make do with inferior gear. I'd rather grind than blaze through the content and then not have anything to look forward to.
     
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  20. Roland Daemon

    Roland Daemon Cupcake-About-Town

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    I want to point to path of exile and diablo 2 in terms of resistances. It works there because the gear is randomized and is needed cause if you don't, the possibility of being one shot gets incredibly high at points.

    However... Since this is an MMO and items are pretty much pre-determined (with little to no room for change in said items (something can't have between 5-6 strength, for instance).. Resistance becomes something of a chore to get because it is set in an item.

    There is no real easy solution that makes gearing for this feel rewarding. I was originally gonna suggest letting us change resistances on the armor at will to put the stat in... but then it just becomes a hassle switching between each fight to make it easier.


    I think resistances have a place in MMO... However, until a good solution is found to enact it, it will forever be something that will stay in the shadows of what glory it could be as a stat.



    On-topic: I would love to see old vanilla wow gearing for stuff via resistances. Having to get gear that may be significantly under the suggested level but give something that's effective later is something i've always enjoyed and gives options. I like having stat choices in that regard... it's as simple as this.

    You can't DPS when you're dead. Even if I took a hit to DPS to survive, i'd still be doing more dps than the guy who blew his load in 5 seconds and took a mace to the face.
     
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