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I don't want solo dungeons

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Ohoni, May 28, 2013.

  1. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Or at least I don't want them to be the main thrust of the solo gameplay experience in the game.

    I say this because a lot of the talk about solo players and the elder game seems to revolve around solo instances, but I very much hope to only spend a tiny portion of my soloing time inside these sorts of instances. I consider myself very much a "solo" MMO player, but the key to being a solo MMO player is to be one amongst many, to solo while around other people. If all I wanted to do is play entirely by myself, there are plenty of single player games for that.

    The charm of playing as a solo player in an MMO is to be doing your own thing, at your own pace, responsible only for yourself, but to do it around other players. It's in clearing mobs in an area, while other players are also clearing the same mobs. You might help another player finish a mob off, they might help you finish one off. You might help them up when they're downed, they might help you up. You might spread buffs to each other, etc. You might team up with dozens of other players to take on massive open world bosses.

    The distinction between a "solo" player and a "group" or "raid" player is not that the solo player never interacts with others, it's just in the nature of that interaction. A solo player might take on some content with four or more other players, he just never uses the "/invite" or "/join" commands to formalize that situation. If he wants to show up and help people out, he just does. If he wants to leave and do something else, he just does. He doesn't need a /party chat box to talk to just four other people, he uses /say to talk to everyone in the vicinity, or /map to talk to everyone in the zone, and holds conversations on those channels with other players.

    I have eight level 80s in GW2 right now, and in that game I only group up to run dungeons, spending about 90% of my time ungrouped in any way. Even though I sped 90% of my time "solo," I only spend maybe 10% of my time completely alone in the world, and often that's just by chance, because nobody happens to be around the thing I feel like doing at the time. Of those 8 characters, only one of them has actually completed the "solo instance" story mode of the game, the other characters are mostly stalled out around the level 40 story missions because I just lost interest. I have no more personal interest in running a solo instance than I do in running a grouped instance, really.

    So I just very much hope that the Wildstar Eldergame does not revolve around instanced content, and that especially the solo content is not designed entirely around solo instances that cut you off from the world. They can have a few of these sorts of missions, maybe something you'd do one per week or less, but they should not make up the majority of the solo player's progression track. If I reach a point where I'm finding myself doing more instanced content than open world content, that's likely the point where I'll lose interest and move to something else.
     
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  2. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    There will definitely be solo instances for solo progression. To what extent, I have no idea. Looks like you'll have to just put up with it to some extent or play something else.
     
  3. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    What gave you the idea that you would be spending the majority of your solo endgame inside solo instances.?

    2 sentences or less please.
     
  4. Trijity

    Trijity Cupcake

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    My god, 8 level 80's in GW2? You have the patience of a saint. I restarted playing and my main is currently 53 and I'm already bored out of my mind.

    Regardless I *love* solo instances. They can do a lot of really cool things with story progression in such a manner. Just hope it's built in a way to support the trinity effectively. I don't wanna have to be a dps in them.

    As Convicted said though, they will most certainly be there, but I doubt they will take up a majority of your time.
     
  5. Yule

    Yule Cupcake

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    I am not by any means a solo player, but i could see the point in having solo instances be "the" endgame for solo players since it gives the devs tools to create challenging content without having to put in speedbumps so you cant just zerg it, like you could in open world. From what i have seen in other games scaling is not a solution, since it doesnt adapt the mechanics to more players but rather prolongs encounters.

    How would you create challenging solo endgame that is not instanced? Not trying to come off as a prick, im just curious.
     
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  6. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    I have no problem with it, as long as they also add plenty of group content, raid content, etc. And that the best gear in the game does not come from those solo instances. We cannot force people to group up, but we should *nudge* people in that direction. So they should give good rewards, but 5 mans and of course, raids, should provide better rewards.

    I don't think I would like it if all the solo progression was inside those instances. As the OP said, if 90% if my solo time will be by myself inside an instance, then it may not be a good idea. I would prefer more solo content in the world where I run into other solo players...
     
  7. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    Not sure on the dungeons, but they are going to have "adventures" as elder content that I think will be able to fit into the solo/small group content. It's supposed to be open world, not sure if it will be done like GW2 Guild missions or possibly similar, or if it will be phased/instanced.
     
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  8. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm not jumping to conclusions, I have no idea what endgame will be in Wildstar, I'm just concerned based on some of the comments filtering around about elder game progression. I very much hope that my concerns are entirely unfounded, of course, but with lack of complete knowledge on the topic I thought it would be a good idea to at least put out there what I wouldn't enjoy.

    I honestly don't care. "challenge" is a tertiary concern to me. What I care about is that they make for FUN experiences at all levels, and plenty of games have managed that. I won't mind if there are some solo instances involved in the high end solo play, I just don't want it to be a situation where raiders are expected to spend several hours a week in raids to progress at endgame, and solo players are expected to spend several hours inside instances to progress at the same rate. While a raid might make up the majority of the "core" experience for a dedicated raider, the solo instance should only make up a tiny fraction of the experience for a "core" solo player.
     
  9. eselle8

    eselle8 Well-Known Cupcake

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    The solo instances seem like they're primarily for people who want some story and lore, but who aren't ever going to end up seeing any of it in the dungeons or the raids. As someone who likes a little story but doesn't necessarily want it shoved into my leveling process in some strict, timed way, I think it's a good solution. I'd be very surprised if instances ended up being the majority of the solo content. There will also be top level path content, and I'm sure there will be top level zones. There also seems to be some form of a mentoring system, and I'd like it if there were other incentives to revisit old zones.

    As for wanting to make sure there's plenty of group content, the developers have made it very clear from the beginning that adding large scale group content was a priority. Throwing the solos a bone doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to negatively impact other aspects of the game. If anything, it may reduce the incentive to nerf the dungeons to death to give less hardcore players something to do.
     
  10. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think you're missing the point I was making. I was not arguing for more group or raid content, that would all be irrelevant to the solo experience since it requires grouping and raid grouping. What I was advocating for is that the solo elder-game progression system should not revolve around instanced content, it should revolve around open world content that can be tackled alone or in informal groups (ie ones that do not involve seeing any little heads along the side of your screen).

    And of course the solo experience should offer rewards equal to the other types of endgame content, though it can be balanced differently.

    We cannot force people to play solo, but we should *nudge* people in that direction. So raids should give good rewards, but 5 mans and of course, soloing, should provide better rewards.

    Ok, that last paragraph was being facetious, but can you see how ridiculous that sounds? Just because you happen to enjoy a certain type of play doesn't mean that other players should be "nudged" into it. If people want to raid, let them raid, and if they wan to group, let them group, but if they want to solo, then that should be equally as rewarding for them, and no game mechanics should in any way encourage them to do anything else if they don't enjoy doing it. They should be able to become the best that they can be through their chosen gameplay style.
     
  11. morroIan

    morroIan New Cupcake

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    You want open world dungeons instead of solo dungeons? I'd prefer open world myself but having a mix would be fine.
     
  12. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well as a Soloer I have no problems with the Eldergame Solo content being instanced, but I would like to hear what you would replace them with.

    Note; including the post tag (="Ohoni, post: 83395, member: 5858") in a quote is proper forum edicate. It makes it more difficult to follow a conversation when you leave it out.
     
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  13. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    No never in a hundred million years should solo endgame content be even remotely considered to be on the same level as Raids or high end PvP, the challenge simply cannot be there due to the constrains of the combat system and having to balance it so every class can solo it. I don't care if challenge is tertiary to you the whole MMORPG model is challenge completed = rewards gained (which is why you have to be over a certain rating to get the best PvP gear or do hard modes for the best PvE gear)
    I would say (read; my opinion) the whole reason that solo instances are put into the game is because they've looked at WoW's 'solo' endgame (dailies, max level quests, open world PvP, gathering, crafting) and seen that the casuals still complained that 'there isn't enough to do by myself and making groups is hard' so they've added something you can chain grind the same as group content.

    You see the problem with wanting solo based endgame content (as in a wholly solo experience) is that it will always be a band-aid solution, MMORPGs have been built from the ground up for decades to the endgame being grouped (hence the MMO), all of a sudden wrathbabies in WoW aren't happy because they haven't 'got time' to play as a group so you get this big focus on putting in solo end game content that the genre was never designed to have.
    MMORPGs are supposed to be social games the mechanics should definitely be nudging people to participate in grouped content thats the point of the game.
     
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  14. popober

    popober Cupcake-About-Town

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    Personally I want solo instances simply because that's where the meat of story-telling takes place that's not about the main story. I mean sure you have your lore you can find else where, but I've never been the lore whore. I prefer story in the form of cutscenes than a node.

    Take SWTOR for example, I was totally fanboying over Revan back in MP, trashtalking Malgus in FE, and enjoying the <REDACTED> out of myself in KUS because of the whole zombie apocalypse thing, but I was forced to skip through some cutscenes by my groupmates. If bioware had implemented some kind of mode where you can go solo simply for the story, I think they did but not sure, I'd have stayed longer.

    I honestly don't care about gear and whatnot, they could even turn solo instances as a way to push the story forward per update and I'd be all for it. This way, if I really enjoy a certain instance, I can keep running it and re-viewing the cutscenes I like.
     
  15. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Open world dungeons, open world events, open world bosses, all good. I'd also like to see scavenger hunts, mission chains that send you all over the world, I want most of the activities to involve getting out in the world and interacting with other players, not sequestering you off into your own little oubliette.

    I can't remember all those numbers. In the long run it doesn't matter who says what, just what gets said.

    If all the classes are balanced then it shouldn't be a problem. Even if classes aren't balance, they can develop adaptive content where each class has their own way of doing things, like one might be able to tank an enemy long enough for a bomb to go off and kill him, while another could DPS him down before the bomb goes off and escape, while another could keep an NPC sidekick healed up to supplement his damage output.

    That's the point of my post, there is a misconception amongst people that enjoy dungeons and raids that those who do not are "anti-social." That's nonsense. If solo players didn't want to play with others then they wouldn't be playing MMOs. Solo players do enjoy playing with others, just not in rigid group structures where their participation comes with expectations. I mean, if you were in a raid, and one of the players took off for a bio break in the middle of a big battle, or just stopped playing to watch a funny bit on TV, what a jerk, right?

    Solo players like playing with other people, just on their own terms and without judgement when they don't want to do what the other players are doing. In open world content, a solo player can join in with a bunch of other players to accomplish a task, but if they want to do something else, they can at a moment's notice and that's their choice. It's a way to play and there's nothing wrong with it.
     
  16. Kleev

    Kleev Cupcake-About-Town

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    I find it odd that they're spending any time creating solo endgame content at all for an MMO. I play single player games when I want a single player experience.
     
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  17. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    65% of the Player base primarily solos. 1% of the Player base does 40man Raids.
     
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  18. Kleev

    Kleev Cupcake-About-Town

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    What % of players do 5/10/25 mans at max level? Your stats without sources or reference to the game you're getting these numbers from are meaningless.
     
  19. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't think class balance in an MMO means what you think it means; In WoW for example there was a time when tanks were soloing an old Raid boss; DKs could face roll it because they tank mostly with self heals and absorbs (so the boss could never kill them), warriors couldn't do it because they avoid taking damage and lower damage done (The boss just eventually ground them down), Paladins could do it (but it was a challenge) because they have some absorbs and some heals. Now in MMO terms those classes are consider balanced yet even with all of them in the same role they all couldn't do a certain piece of content.

    If players in my guild did that they would be sat or G-kicked.

    I already mentioned solo content that exists outside of solo instances (dailies, max level quests, open world PvP, gathering, crafting) the problem is 'solo players' get bored with that stuff quickly which is why solo instances are being added in the first place.
    The reason they get bored is because those things are innately grindy specifically because all solo content in an MMO always has been designed as the grind to train/gear you enough to be ready for group content which is the focus of the game.
    The problem is there can only be so much solo content in an MMO (this is really an issue with all PvE but mitigated by the fact most raids don't finish a current tier before the next is released) you will blow through it before the next tier is released. No matter how slow/casual/bad you are you will get through the content then you will get bored and cry that there's not enough content in the end game even though you are specifically ignoring 4/5s of the endgame content by choosing not to group.

    *citation needed.
     
  20. popober

    popober Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm sorry, I just have to say something about this. This is honestly your reason? You DO know you can simply press reply right? You know, that word in blue at the bottom right of the post? The one that says "reply"? The one that sends the replied an alert with a link straight to your post? You don't have to remember any numbers, so you're blatant ignorance of forum etiquette cannot be excused. You're causing unnecessary hassle to the people you're talking to.

    It had to be said. Back on topic now.
     
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