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I'd like to take a second to talk about Boobs.

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Imafrakkincylon, May 31, 2013.

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  1. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I believe the biggest opposition of "boob" sliders or other body sliders come not from the players (we're largely in favor of vast customization options) but from the devs themselves. Not that they think their races should look exactly one way or another but I believe it has to do with how it'd affect armor models on characters as well as animations and clipping.

    However I do think the devs could compromise and instead of dealing with making gear/animations look proper on all slider settings, they could have presets, or say, 5 body type settings or in this case, 5 "boob" size settings. For example, say that the current breast sizes in Wildstar would be 3 or 4 depending on the race. Five would be the max size (pretty big) and one would be very small (probably not flat but you could add a 6th option for that). Instead of designing gear for an entire slider's worth of options, they'd only have to make gear look not too warped across 5-6 boob/body shape presets. In this case, they could have slightly edited models of a particular gear model for sizes 2 and 4 or perhaps 2 and 5 if there are 6 settings. This would double or even triple the work with gear design alone, not to mention how body size would affect the gear models, but such is the price of extra customization. At the very least, Carbine could expand on the customization options in future patches after launch or even an expansion and give premade characters the option to resize their characters for free one time after the patch.
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  2. Thordran

    Thordran Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd be interested to hear from a game artist and perhaps an animator about how the design choice plays into the gear armoring as well. How difficult is it to actually scale gear sets so that your avatars don't look all wonky with various body types or dimensions. I have to admit that I have no idea what goes into this although I would assume that it's a non-trivial amount of animation to make it work.
  3. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I recall hearing from Blizz devs long ago about why they chose to limit customization options and a lot of it had to do with making gear and animations fit right on the models.

    However I do know of a few games I've played that had very customizable options. Horizons and Vanguard come to mind but I never played long enough to see if these options caused any serious distortions in the gear they wore.

    As you said, hearing about how these things come about from the game artists/animators themselves would be the most important thing. If people want their flat/torpedo chests, the first step is figuring out how much developer effort is needed in this area compared to other parts of the game that might be a better time investment (subjective I know but still important).
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  4. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    It's the point I've been trying to make the whole time. Glad it's finally gotten some traction. I'm fine with whatever they decide, because it comes down to that anyway, but if they think it's worthwhile to change it, also fine by me. I think that the ribcage of the majority of the races are really short is all, so it makes the boobs look kinda different from reality, because it is different from reality. But then again, so is the whole game. The fact that every male has the perfect golden ratio V going on is just an aesthetic thing. People find comfort in the golden ratio. Then when slight changes are made to it, it will make the character look different.

    Science has decided making things with odd lengthened limbs that have oversized ends (such as hands and feet) make them "cute." There are certain attributes which make things "cute" (if you look at the aurin hands and feet this is clearly what they were going for, an upbeat happy cute race, perky boobs only go naturally with that.) Also oversized facial features (large ears, big eyes) is another part of "cute" factors.

    [​IMG]
    (Check out the picture of the elephant in this picture and try to not go "awwww")

    I'd agree humans need to be toned down a bit, but it's possible they put the human side by side to an Aurin and the boobs just looked saggy instead of normal in contrast. I think each race has a different personality thus far, and each upholds its own personality pretty well. No one wants their boobs to look saggy... Some may be indifferent, but I doubt anyone wants their character's boobs to look saggy, well not if it wasn't a joke anyway. Please speak up if you do and tell me why, because I'd really like to know so I can alter my viewpoint.

    In the end I hope the women who are offended by it can accept and respect the decisions by the design team/producers and everyone at Carbine if they decide not to change it. I wouldn't think they did it on purpose to be offensive, maybe they did, I don't know why they did it, but there's some actual scientific reasons they may have chosen to design it that way opposed from marketing ones. (I'm not saying it doesn't work towards marketing to a certain audience as well, but there are also grown up reasons that are purely designed based as well.)
  5. Seagrey

    Seagrey Cupcake-About-Town

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    There are a lot of games that have come out recently that focus on the female toon as 'eye candy'. Either those dev's don't feel that women play mmo's or they are focused on appealing to women who's sole purpose in life is to be seen as a sex object and be valued as such.

    I didn't get the impression that Carbine was such a developer. I got the impression that the devs were going for the comic book look...and in most comic's you do see the super-sexed female toon unfortunately.

    Carbines art design is great, but if they want to appeal to a wide variety of female players then I encourage them to provide customization that will allow the female player to tone down the super-sexed look to one that she is comfortable with....perhaps a bit more discrete. Variety makes for a better, healthier community, I think.
  6. Miatog

    Miatog Cupcake-About-Town

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    I can't help but give this OP a like for the laughter it gave me alone. Well written.

    But I agree, I like big breasts but...a number of the women I've seen have kinda scared me to be honest. And on the Aurin it feels wrong for them to be sizeable. They seem so slim and agile such, they should be much smaller, I'm all for flat chested on them honestly.

    At the very least we need a slider or options to choose smaller breasts.
  7. Dave Bowman

    Dave Bowman New Cupcake

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    Yeah, I don't know about all that. Sure, we've got some primate triggers going on, with everyone trying to suss out a healthy mate by looks. The ladies look for that masculine V-ish musculature. The gents are trying to thread the needle between still young but already fertile. (perkiness is a part of it) And yeah, big eyes, tiny nose, big lips speak of estrogen exposure, big strong jaws and bulky cheekbones tell you about testosterone. And we all get oxytocin shots from looking at the damned babies. Sure. Okay.

    But we've got big brains, and culture trumps most of the monkey stuff. In some cultures, the breast isn't a sex thing at all, and so you don't really care what it looks like. Twenty thousand years ago up in Willendorf, they didn't mind them saggy as long as the size was right. Old Rubens painted them chubby with no danger of putting any eyes out, and many African cultures agree. Botticelli dreamt up Venus - that'd be the ideal woman, yeah? - and made her a pretty regular gal, bit of a belly, small-chested. The German Renaissance dudes painted them really small.

    So, basically what I'm saying is if I had to choose between "science" and good old Western pornificated ideas of what makes a pretty lady to 'splain W*'s models, my money's firmly on the latter. Sorry, no excuses. Let's have some sliders.
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  8. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So... you're saying... if they're hyper-human they MUST be a sex object... This means you're seeing things. The men humans look hyper-human too. That nice chiseled chin, that perfect V the perfect proportions on the face, that distant gaze of adventure, the PERFECT HAIR! Have you seen the one where the guy's wearing an open trenchcoat and has like a 24 pack of abs? THAT'S CALLED EYECANDY TOO! But guess what, you're just going to write it off as "Oh, it's just what guys want to look like, so they can play out their adventure fantasy." It's goes both ways. Stop acting like it's a feminist thing, cause it's not.

    Here's the pic for reference.
    [​IMG]
    Yah, that's not eye candy for ladies?

    No it's not! Well, it might be, but who cares it looks stylistically interesting. This is what all the human males look like, so if you're going to make the argument about sex objects and social deviants, they're doing it fairly at the very least! Stop thinking the world revolves around you, I'm willing to bet they thought long and hard about how to do it tastefully. Market shows this is what women like in men too. Even if you don't personally agree, it's been studied and these are the features looked for in men by women.


    Woah woah woah here, there's options for the female players that want a different look, there's the Granok, Mechari, and Draken. If you want a more primal type of character guess what, that's Granok and Draken. Guess what, there's also two unannounced races in the game. Who cares if not everyone personally likes the way every race looks. I personally don't like the way Granok's look, that's my opinion, I will not roll one and be happy, I will let players who like it roll one and not be so callous or jaded as to insist Carbine change it, or their game is deemed uncouth for society.

    If you don't like the shape of a race, DON'T ROLL THAT RACE. Some people may like the shape of the race, so let them roll it. And who knows that they'll look like in end game anyway. There are perfectly good design and marketing reasons to do Aurins how they are, it gives them a personality, simply because you don't like that personality doesn't mean it's wrong.
  9. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Woah, fertility gods are different, Venus was a fertility goddess, if you go through all of society they're depicted as things with boobs and a belly (there are stone age examples of this which were carvings with no heads or limbs, just the torso.) There are an equal amount of cultures that showed perky breasts, the Romans did this a lot, as did the Egyptians. You can come up with an equal portion of ancient civilizations which depicted women completely differently, and in unrealistic manners, but they did it for men as well. As has Carbine, both genders are depicted as unrealistically fit beings.

    It's not a choice between science and culture, it's a mix of both.

    And yes both the Romans and Egyptians were obsessed with perfection, and unrealistic tendencies. That's what makes it art. It's a viewpoint from someone else of something, either in their head or how they see how something should be depicted. Romans did it out of respect, in that they didn't want to see their heroes depicted as fat and ugly, only perfect humans, same with Egyptians, especially when depicting a God or Goddess.

    Edit: I'm fine with sliders as long as it doesn't break the game, cause too much development time, and it's what the artists and producers and developers decide on. I'd also like to point out the Renaissance period was about realism... then I believe some short time after was the abstract period, are you saying we should just scrap all humanoid forms and instead have a red square a blue circle a yellow triangle and a green star for characters? There's equally good examples of both sides of this argument in the art world. If you say we should stick to one style of art I think it should be Carbine's style, if you think that it's wrong then we should stick to Abstract so no one's offended.
  10. Seagrey

    Seagrey Cupcake-About-Town

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    The males in Wildstar are not portrayed as hyper-sexualized. In fact, looking at the toon to my right...I'd say he's a eunuch. There is no evidence of a scrotum and other manly parts.

    Looking on my left, I see another male toon who is definitely bigger but who also seems to have lost his package, somewhere.... as well as being downright unattractive. There is nothing on either of these toons that is trying to say 'sexy' to me.
  11. Dave Bowman

    Dave Bowman New Cupcake

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    That'd be Ceres, bromigo. Venus was pretty firmly about the nookie. Ask old Ovid if you don't believe me. But you get a pass since I brought up the Willendorf chica, who'd been misdubbed Venus by some silly types back in the day.

    Apart from that, you're swinging at smoke here. Yeah, the ladies were depicted (and hankered after) as everything from breast and belly carvings, through Kate Moss lookalikes, to squares and triangles depending on time and place, which is kind of my point. 'Human hormones made devs do it' don't really cut it. Deliberate choices, informed by culture, are deliberate.

    Yep. I sure don't want boob sliders to break the game, either. Also, yep, only if the Carbine bunch decide on it. It'd be unsporting to force them.

    What do you reckon... a little rising and falling sound as you move the slider... excess drain on resources?
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  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I'd agree that it's definitely hyperbole to prove the point of "if you want to use art as a basis of culture it's kinda a moot point" because you get an entire range based on different civilizations and generations. You can cater pointing certain movements and artists out and ignoring other ones, and pointing out all of them waters down the discussion to "well... we can make them look whatever we want." But Venus was in part a goddess of fertility, as well as everything else. And if she was sorta normal looking and the depiction of beauty and sex, this goes against being what the Aurins are about anyway. Think about it, if small normal breasted women with a bit of a belly are considered the goddess of beauty and sex, then the Aurin female is about as far from that as you can get. Therefore the Aurin female could be considered anything but a beautiful sex depiction of females.

    My point is, there's no reason to get offended about it, it's simply how they decided to make them look, and it's a personality. It only has to be a sex object if you see it that way, it's not inherently that.

    It's a lot of work for armor to fit correctly on sliders, which is why I think body types are a good way to go, as long as they still make the race as a whole appear as a personality like they do now. No one could say anything but, "that guy looks like a commando" about the Granok. It's their personality. The aurin looks like a bubbly somewhat whimsicle being to me... which I'm sure is what they were going for.
  13. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Who wants to see a scrotum? No one, if you go out in public and pull out your scrotum EVERYONE'S gonna say "ew..." Like I said, market research shows women are generally attracted to the V shape and chiseled facial features... Which them boys have got that goin' on. Are you really only attracted by a huge package?
  14. Seagrey

    Seagrey Cupcake-About-Town

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    The same could be said for uncovering breasts in public...as many women who have breast fed their babes could attest...folks do go "ew'...can't you find a private place to do that?"

    And definitely...a male with a bigger package is thought to be more virile. Getting down to biology, he would be chosen by more women than a small packaged male.
  15. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Proof that people are offended by things they shouldn't be... Being oversensitive about it and then saying "it's ok to feed your baby in public" is pretty hypocritical. If the baby's gotta eat, whatever, breast milk's good for the immunity of the baby.

    Generally they are covered as they are part of the actual genitalia. Last I checked breasts were mammary glands and used to feed babies, not for sex (well... not directly for sex anyway). Baby makin' does not include boobs intrinsically, but baby growing does. If women were walking around with their genetalia out and their gonads hanging out (not sure how this would work... but it'd be gross) people would equally say "ew" at the same time a guy that's ripped with his shirt off, is not seen as a sex object?

    Edit: There's also no proof of testicle size being a factor in virility. If you'd like to dispute this cite scientific or medical journals stating otherwise.
  16. Seagrey

    Seagrey Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's not the fact of virility it is the 'assumption' or 'suggestion' of virility.

    Females with larger breasts and rounded hips are assumed to be more fertile and better able to feed their offspring. Breasts in this society are seen as sexual objects... in other countries ... not so much.

    Males with larger scrotum's, also suggest increased virility since the sperm is not in close contact with the body and the testicles remain a bit cooler...which is good for sperm. The more sperm the more virile.

    But let's not get side-tracked too much. Bottom line, It would be great if Carbine would consider some body customization so that we have a choice of breast size.
  17. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Yeah I was gonna suggest getting away from that topic too, as it starts in on the "locked thread" issue. But I think whatever Carbine decides should be respected. I'm fine with them doing some different body styles, and think that's the best implementation as it makes it easier on the armor team, but it may end up limiting overall animation of the game.

    Being that you have to make sure all animations work for multiple body shapes across multiple races, so if you assume 5 body shapes per race, that's 40 bodies they have to make sure don't clip for every race/class combination, which is at least 120 different combinations (as each race has 3) but it will probably closer to 150 combinations, with closer to 4 classes per race. You assume 40 (conservatively) different abilities which you have to check, making the number 3,000. So 3,000 bodies with animations just based on classes, not based on path abilities or abilities through other means. Oh, then there's 2 genders per race too making a grand total of 6,000 different things they have to check per armor set. Mind you this is PER ARMOR SET. And Carbine wants a large variance of armor, so this number would be astronomical. So, the alternative is 1 body type per class, meaning a greater variance of possible armors and animations per race/class. If 1 exists then you have 6 races with an average of 4 classes per, making 24 race/class combinations and 40 abilities per class make it 960 and then 2 genders make it 1920 instead of 6000 per armor set. Much more reasonable. Also, they know the armor only has to look good on one body style per race.

    Basically would you rather see 3 times the amount of animations and armor visuals or the ability to choose your avatar shape which will be hidden under the armor at most times anyway, or facing the opposite direction as your camera (as you usually look at the back of your character). I'd personally rather have more interesting visuals and armor sets.

    I personally think they should keep one body type per race/gender because of the above. This is also better for long term, being that they can make awesome looking armor for every tier of content that's vastly different. If they decide to tone down the bust size of humans and aurins that's cool, but I also think leaving them "as is" is fine.
  18. Eluldor

    Eluldor Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm all for sliders for nearly everything, so anyone can make a really unique body look per class. So far, the game appears to have strong facial option in character creation. If you're going to make an argument for breast sliders, please go further and include body types. Why? Because a super small waist and huge breasts are both factors here. I've seen people make arguments for large breasts, because they can relate, but are their hips also that Freaking small, most likely NO! - unless you've got surgery going for you here.

    Honestly, I don't think anyone can say their body comes anywhere close to an Aurin, and this factors into Carbine's "ideal" silhouettes of each race, so the overall look is really up to them. The Aurins already have the (huge) ears and tails for their silhouette, but I don't think the breasts need to be a feature of that also. If all of the female Aurins have huge breasts and itty bitty waists, maybe the devs can come up with a reason why - other than sexualization.

    Otherwise, making silly silhouettes that don't include sliders for adjusting the body somewhat, will end up being more negative than positive.
  19. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    No to sliders, due to decrease in armor variation and animation variation. See directly above.
  20. Joukehainen

    Joukehainen Well-Known Cupcake

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    BlindSear, I really don't think it works that way. Body sliders including breast sliders exist in many games with different races. It's a deflatable/inflatable value that stretches the textures and frame slightly. Downsizing is easier than upsizing bc upsizing results in the most stretching of the textures and can lead them to look much more low-quality.

    An example of choices between a few sizes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=G02MvnD-0ww#t=109s


    The above could also be seen as a slider with only five "increments." Either way, it's nice.
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