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Is LFD on its way out?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by John, May 19, 2013.

  1. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    I read an interesting quote this past week from Tom Chilton, Game Director and Lead Designer for WoW:

    Consider the above quote in conjunction with the fact that Blizzard is not going to release any more traditional dungeons for the remaining duration of MoP, which means that their only challenging small group PvE content (heroic scenarios) are going require premade groups.

    It struck me as interesting and significant that WoW, the game that really made auto-LFD tools popular and almost an expected part of MMOs, seems to be considering going back to the old style of premade groups.

    My single biggest concern with WS is that they will run into the same issue that Blizzard seems to have run into: LFD-formed groups requiring easy content in order to make the system work. Forgetting all the 'community killer' stuff that is often brought up in LFD discussions, Chilton's quote and Blizzard's recent design choices are the most damning evidence yet of what to me is the bigger issue: it may not be possible to have auto-LFD and challenging dungeon content coexist.


    Edit - More Blizzard quotes which further enhance this position:

  2. Corruptdevil

    Corruptdevil Cupcake

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    As long as a global/zone chat exists and a body of players, groups are not impossible to find. I would prefer to not see a LFG feature, because I want to see the social aspect of mmo's to come back. I wanna see people in the wild, not sitting in a city waiting for a queue to pop. If there is a LFG feature, I'll probably be doing the same thing in wow. But it won't kill the game for me. Its just something I want to see.

    I'm also assuming that a lack of LFG features would make people go out and do things.
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  3. Haversham

    Haversham Cupcake-About-Town

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    Nah. WoW has plenty of challenging content as well as the Auto-LFD stuff. This is the implementation of difficult small group content that probably couldn't be completed by a random assortment of people you'd get queuing for it. This is like their challenge mode of scenarios; people won't be able to just go in and faceroll it.

    Now, if you're talking about Auto-LFD combined with challenge mode-like stuff I think you're right. But I don't believe anyone would disagree with you in regards to that anyways.
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  4. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    You cant do challenge modes in a pug as it is and getting the achievements for the dungeon meta is best done in a pug.
    LFD is basically just for quick points/gearing while the ones serious about metas and challenges already do it in groups.
    Heroic scenarios are just an extension of that.
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  5. Nekofest

    Nekofest Cupcake-About-Town

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    If a random group of people from different servers can do it then it's too easy.

    If a random group of people from the same server can do it then it's fine.

    If a random group of people from the same server can't do it then they must be incompetent / undergeared / underleveled / excuses.

    If a random group of people from different servers can't do it then the system doesn't work?

    People are so illogical.
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  6. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    It's an interesting shift in WoW mechanics, we have to see how that works out. Is it necessary? Probably not though... They could make challenging content, and still leave the LFD tool as it is. Just let the PUGs fail over and over again, until they learn to play better, or decide to pre-form a group.

    Dungeon difficulty can really be independent whether there is a LFD tool or not... They would have to eat the "WoW is too hard!" song from players for a long time though, but I think it would actually be good to provide difficult content again :)
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  7. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Interesting, indeed.

    I always maintained that facilitating any 5 warm bodies to get together for group content almost certainly meant the group content was less than it could be. I personally think development effort should be shifted from focusing on the one-night-stand to a long term relationship - build tools that builds guilds, not groups.
  8. Haversham

    Haversham Cupcake-About-Town

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    This isn't a shift. They've started putting in more challenging content with the start of MoP, and if anything it represents their further diversification of catering to all walks of people in MMO's not just one select group. In fact, I'd say their message recently is more along the lines of what carbine has been saying all along; they want to make content for everyone, not just a select few.

    Exactly! They're not mutually exclusive.
  9. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Thats my point exactly, and one very key entity does disagree: Carbine. They want to have challenging dungeons and have auto-LFD.

    I think its more the auto matchmaking aspect, and the commitment/reward of LFD vs premade. You are much more likely to jump ship if you get a bad group in LFD because you can simply que up for a new one, hence the need to have easy content to ensure groups are not continually falling apart.

    Compare that to a same-server, selfmade group where both your effort invested in making the group, and the standing of your personal reputation on your server are at stake if you drop group. Players are forced to stick around and work together, and the potential for more challenging content still exists.
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  10. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Maybe WoW's moving toward challenging content being towards smaller groups and the accessible content towards larger groups? So 3 man "hard mode dungeons" (heroic scenarios) and 10 man raiding for challenging, then 5 man "normal mode dungeons" and 25 man raids.
  11. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    I doubt it - heroic scenarios on the ptr werent amazingly hard. They just werent afk walks in the park where one could carry the other two like normal scenarios.
  12. Haversham

    Haversham Cupcake-About-Town

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    That was the way Cata was when it first came out. It was difficult for pugs to finish. Blizz caved and made them easier to the point it wasn't even mildly difficult. Anyways, I don't think Carbine wants Pug challenge modes right off the bat right? As long as the dungeons that build up to the max level heroic content are challenging as well, and Carbine is able to train us to be ready for challenging content, I dont see why it's not possible.
  13. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I'm going to agree with Rum, I just think ( for WoW ) its an easier way for them to extend the existing content, and I can see it being just like he said, where you can't carry an afker, but not anything really harder than that.
  14. Nekofest

    Nekofest Cupcake-About-Town

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    There is nothing rewarding about spending more time spamming chat channels and sending people random whispers for lengths of time often longer than the dungeon run itself. There is also no evidence to suggest that this communication is in any way meaningful or facilitating to establishing social bonds with others.

    Typical and realistic interaction is running a dungeon. Picking out good players that you would enjoy doing more dungeons with. Inviting them to future instance runs or questing together.

    You are neglecting that you have a choice in whether or not you want to cross-realm queue or only queue for people on your server.

    There is nothing more frustrating than spending 2 hours looking for a healer and having them bail 20 minutes into the run. Players aren't forced to do anything with or without tools at their disposal. They're going to do whatever the hell they want regardless.

    Take the nostalgia goggles off. Please.
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  15. Elthic

    Elthic Cupcake-About-Town

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    Pretty sure you missed his point entirely, its the fact that it takes a long time to find a group that you are more willing to stick with a group that is messing up, because dropping group and finding a new one would waste even more time than a wiping a few times in order to complete it.

    Since groups are more willing to stick together, they can add harder content to the game, because people will be ok with a wipe here or there.

    Anyways take off the hostility goggles, adds nothing to the conversation.
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  16. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    To be very honest, Im more wondering what the big amazing reveal blizzard has hinted at that will come out near the end of the expansion that they say will make folks revisit all the old content.
  17. Haversham

    Haversham Cupcake-About-Town

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    Probably just reducing your currently ilvl to a raid-appropriate number so that it's not a faceroll anymore.
  18. Nekofest

    Nekofest Cupcake-About-Town

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    No I addressed his point, but it is obvious that I was not clear enough.


    The concept of commitment is entirely subjective to the individual. It's likely the people in the group who have been waiting for 2 hours to do the dungeon are committed. The guy who hopped in after responding to the random tell may not be. He didn't spend 2 hours waiting.

    And then there is always the possibility of someone going "You know what guys I wasn't expecting it to take so long to put a group together, I gotta go." - This is not an infrequent occurrence by any stretch.

    It can become an infinite cycle of nearly completing the group and then having to replace someone who got tired of waiting. Or even people that need to drop in the middle of the run because of the combined time wasted forming the dungeon and then wiping trying to complete it.

    The end result is this leads to more scrapped, incomplete runs because people are often too exhausted to bother wasting more time trying to find replacements.

    If you are content to go through all of the nonsense associated with lack of tools to make finding and forming groups more efficient then that's on you. Just pretend the tools don't exist and do it the "traditional" way. You don't have to use them just because they exist. Here's to hoping that LFD is here to stay in WildStar because choosing your option for cross-server or server-only is a fantastic feature for those looking to maintain the social opportunities presented in group content.

    ---------
    Again there is no evidence to suggest that "LF2M Tank/DPS for Stormtalon's Lair PST" is meaningful interaction between players. It's just an inefficient method of trying to form a group made efficient with implemented tools. Neither is /who Warrior /who Stalker "are you tank spec? do you want to come tank stormtalon's lair?" meaningful interaction for that matter.

    Tools for efficiency in finding/creating groups are not, and do not need to be synonymous with things such as trivializing content and trivializing the open world. These tools can be, and should be implemented in a way that does neither.
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  19. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    Stop using logic, you are going to implode the internet
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  20. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    LOL

    I've been suspicious of the claims people have made claiming that LFD auto-grouping features are damaging to the server community and the game community as a whole, however I never really put a lot of thought into the subject because I never cared to get into a discussion about it. However, after reading this thread it has become more clear to me that the solution isn't removing LFD grouping features, but rather is the implementation of non-trivial content that requires groups to do more than tunnel-vision to clear a dungeon.

    I recall countless pre-LFD grouping experiences that often ended up the way Nekofest described, especially since I was a completionist who wanted to complete all of the quests for places like Uldaman, Maraudon, and Razorfen Downs, places that nobody in vanilla WoW ever wanted to take on. I have had countless experiences upon recollection where I got into fights with my groups, them accusing me of whatever after I challenged my group to pick up the slack and be more competent. Perhaps I was in the wrong but that's another topic. Point is, compared to my experiences using LFD features, my pre-LFD grouping experiences were anything but community builders. If anything, I've met nicer, friendlier people through cross-server dungeons that I would've probably grouped up again with if it weren't for being on different servers as opposed to pre-LFD, same-server grouping experiences.

    I don't think LFD features are the community breakers that people claim they are. The worst possible results from group finders is perhaps ninjaing, but even then there were already plenty of safeguards against this implemented so at best, it was no worse than running a team found on your own server, but that it wasn't a massive time sink in order to get a group going.

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