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Is LFD on its way out?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by John, May 19, 2013.

  1. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    We've been down this rabbit hole in the first half of this thread before I'm not going to address the merits of of the autogrouping tool we've done that before. I'm going to say we both agree on the cross server stuff which is why for alts/when I'm playing at 2am I'll have the same server only box ticked.
    But what are the alternative group finder tools?
    The <REDACTED>ty lfg (or the first incarnation of lfr) window where you flagged yourself as LFG with your role that no one ever used and failed so miserably it was the reason LFG was instituted in the first place? I remember when SWToR launched with that LFG tab and no one ever used it and people en mass called for a 'real LFG tool'. The LFG channel in chat? So we can party like its 2004? There has been multiple posts in this thread outlining how that's just a nostalgia machine when the reality is that it's both more frustrating and vastly more inefficient the the tool is.

    I agree the cross server stuff is bad (although that does leave low pop servers swinging in the wind that's a topic for another time) but the argument LFG leads to easier content is disjoint and all the Blizz quotes in the world don't change that.
    Blizz can't get away with hard dungeons and a LFG tool because they trained their player base poorly (You can literally chain pull quest mobs without stopping on clases with regening resources) and instituted the idea that everyone can clear all the content no matter what (I also think a huge part was not letting Wrath heroics scale with raid tiers/releasing new heroics with new raids for like 3 tiers. Which is what turned them into aoe snorefests, people like to forget they were still hard in early Wrath not BC brutal or vanilla grindy but still hard), there is no going back from those preconceptions.
    Wildstar is a clean slate, so long as they never bow to those conceptions that everyone should see all content with no effort and that content should be nerfed and also at endgame it's raid or die. LFG can work if you train people to play their class and use CC, hell it was even working in cata (for all the maoning how it was unpuggable of the two pre-gut heroics I remember failing: The first was a guild run where our healer had been lazy and was solely in questing greens so she'd just face plant the group and the other was an LFG run with a DK tank wearing agiliy mail and an agility pole arm that died every pull) till GC got spooked by the forum warriors and gutted heroics.

    Yes, In Wrath I used to RL our 25 man ICC alt runs and we often had to pug (case in point that I was RLing in the first place because our real RL had football on that night), If one of the other officers or respected member of my guild said a player was bad or a ninja (not that that mattered since we used master looter and manually /rolled for it) they got the boot instantly no ifs or buts.
    That was in Wrath that was after the community 'died' from LFG, server rep always matters.

    It's a normal WoW like cross server LFG tool with the option via tick box to make it same server only (added due to community demand).
    Ark likes this.
  2. Grim Fandango

    Grim Fandango Well-Known Cupcake

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    I don't think anyone is saying that the newer WoW-style LFG system doesn't produce groups much more quickly than older methods did. It's the quality of the groups and the community itself that suffers, and suffers harshly, under those "quality of life" improvements.

    Also, the systems where they have a LFG that simply shows who's interested in running something does work just fine still. TSW was using it for quite some time (I haven't played in a few months so I can't speak of any recent developments) and, coupled with a LFG channel, groups weren't difficult to form by any measure unless it was a particularly slow day.

    And you know what? I *would* much rather have to spend more time finding a group and making new friends than have WildStar devolve into the acidic mess WoW became due to their tools. I miss having people whispering me asking if I'd join them because they liked how well I did in a previous group. I miss having the ability to just boot particularly troublesome players when they start acting like an arse. I like people at least trying to behave themselves because they *know* they can easily be booted for being an arse and then have significantly more trouble finding another group afterwards. Those are all positives for me and, while a bit antagonistic sounding (and far from 100% accurate), the only types of people I can even imagine who'd be against that sort of community building environment are the very type of players no one really likes to game with to begin with.
    Neurotic Cucpake and John like this.
  3. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    You were doing quite well until the last sentence.

    As someone who also watched the decline of WoW's "community" (more accurately, the behavior of people in random dungeons), I can empathize with the nature of such objections. I just feel that they miss the mark. Two things happened in WoW with the dungeons: LFD is one, that's the one everyone talks about. The second one, the one I personally think is critical, is that dungeons were dumbed down across the board.

    Now, most people blame the poor behavior and lack of communication on the anonymity of the dungeon runs. At a glance, that's a solid premise to build on. It makes sense. We need only glance at the rest of the internet for confirmation of that. The problem here, though, is that MMOs already had that variable factored into the equation. Anyone familiar with WoW's Trade chat knows that people don't need cross-server anonymity to act like idiots. And things like griefing and ninja-looting happened well before there was LFD.

    But people knew to behave (generally)because they needed other people in dungeons. That's what this comes down to. Now, you can accomplish that goal by making it harder to find groups or you can make it harder for groups to complete content. I prefer the latter. I've played many multiplayer games with anonymous matchmaking services and one of the things I've noticed is this: the greater the difficulty of the game, the higher the standards of accountability will be among players.

    WoW had the chance to do this. They caved. The fatal flaw in WoW's matchmaking system is not the technology itself but Blizzard's refusal to stand up to their own players. This is exacerbated by the fact that most of the dungeons throughout the leveling experience, in WoW, are completely faceroll. Players are never taught to expect challenge, to rely on one another, or to look out for one another. What they're taught instead is that dungeons are short, quick, effortless escapades that could be finished by five players having their cats roll around on their keyboards.

    -This- damages the community, by breeding bad habits and negative attitudes, far more than any matchmaking system does. It completely fails to hammer home the one lesson that is 100% mandatory for long-term success in MMO gameplay: in group content, the group's needs outweigh the individual's. If you want to succeed, your team has to succeed. Whether that team is comprised of close friends or complete strangers is irrelevant.

    We can force accountability without abandoning the convenience of instance matchmaking, the instances just need to be harder. And they need to stay harder. If you make a dungeon that can be grouped for anonymously, but is challenging enough that most PUGs will fail it without communication and coordination, you accomplish two things. One, manually gathered groups remain relevant, because the difficulty will encourage people to be more selective in who they bring. Two, people won't have the luxury of griefing every group they get into because they won't be able to be carried through every run.

    Instance matchmaking is only as disruptive as the game's designers let it be.
    Oconnell, Elanith, Splash and 10 others like this.
  4. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Brilliant post, I agree 100%. The question is whether Carbine will cave like Blizzard did or will they let their players bang their collective heads against the wall in difficult dungeons.
  5. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    gotta say i actually agree with a lot of this. for 5mans at least. i do miss the 5mans that required some kind of effort. some people seem to think that just because i defend LFR, that i want all my content to be faceroll and that i support lazy players. thats just not my attitude at all. i enjoyed the tougher 5mans in bc, herois especially, but i enjoyed them the most on my rogue. Why? because of sap! i knew that even if my gear was a bit average, and my dps was a bit average, so long as i was an effective rogue, and was compitent at sapping the right target, at the right time, then the group would accept me.

    i also agree about the whole expectations thing. since i have all toons at such a high lvl in wow i havnt done low lvl content for a while. i was playing on a second server on a 72 dk tank. one of my mains is a dk tank. this toon is well geared, and i know the content inside out. so i go into this random 5man and msg the healer, letting him know i will be going as fast as his mana allows. so off i go, chain pulling 2-3 rooms at a time when i can, and just destroying the hell outa this place. i mean we completely wrecked it. i think it was just before the 3rd boss that the healer finaly oomed, so i stopped to let him drink. at that point, the shaman, 4th on the dmg meter, starts swearing at everyone and telling me to "hurry up and pull you complete noob". i was kind of shocked. for 2 reasons. 1)i was doing 96% of the damage....... and 2)i didnt remember it being that bad in the past....but it most likely was, and i have just forgotten.,
  6. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    See one thing I don't get is how everyone in this whole debate is talking like guilds don't exist. My friends list in WoW consited of my guild people from other raiding guilds on my server (so I knew they were good) and a couple of RL friends/workmates who were generally badly geared but played passably.
    All in all that was a pretty high number of people, that was my community and I've never been very inclined to step out of it for any length of time.
    Just because I don't feel the need to sit in general all day talking politics hardly means I'm not part of the server community or that I'm an anti social player by any means.

    Besides I still feel we're ignoring the real thrust of the issue. I said it in my leas post and Apostate said it much more eloquently just then.
    It's not the tool (cross server stuff aside) that caused the issues. It was Blizz' accessibility design philosophy that caused the dumbing down of group content which caused the whole slew of issues.
  7. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    /thread

    At the very least give us challenging dungeon content. One could argue that raids are good enough to satisfy the challenge-hungry crowd, but raids require a lot more time and organization to prepare for and do. It's not enough when you want to delve into challenging content. Another point worth making is that gearing up for raiding should be challenging. Not tedious necessarily, but challenging. You don't need dungeons to be super hard. You can reserve that for raiding (although one or two of those dungeons would be cool). What I want to see is Magister's Terrace and early Cata heroics difficulty for dungeons. That was good stuff. I want seconds, please. :)
  8. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    Jeez Apostate, why didn't you say this 20+ pages ago, would of saved us a lot of time!? :up:
  9. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    The question is, where do guilds come from if you're not meeting new people in the game? You might have a some RL friends, but you're going to need to meet a lot of new friends to make a full guild. Running content with people on your server is an excellent way to both meet someone, and see what kind of player they are. Cross-server removes that.

    To me the general problem with x-server LFD is that it introduces an entirely different method of socializing in the game, but its for some reason expected to work just fine with the old methods of socializing (like guilds and challenging 5 mans); methods that were built around same-server functions.

    If they are going to have cross-realm dungeons, warplots, BGs etc, I wish they would just eliminate the idea of realms entirely and just have giant, persistent shards. You may never know 99% of your "server" but at least there would be a shred of accountability in grouping, and the ability to recruit for guilds and warplots etc.
  10. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    In every single post I've made since this thread was necro'd I've mention I don't intend to use the cross server group finder and acknowledged that cross server has drawbacks that I don't agree with. We agree on that, why do you keep talking about cross server at me? We agree.

    I agree that a lot of guilds are at first made by people who meet in the game and running content its great way to meet people (also a good first test for trials).
    The fact remains that in my experience with recruitment there were only two apps that came about because of people from our server playing with us in a 5man or an alt run. Most apps were from people we'd never seen before (that came from our server) and our enhance shaman was actually a result of a fortuitous cross server lfg (he transfered). Of course that only anecdotal evidence and really this is entirely tangental to the topic at hand.
  11. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Because you cannot have one without the other. Automated LFD requires cross server to make it work. I can all but guarantee that you will end up using the cross server finder even if you don't want to, just like me.

    Carbine's "same server checkbox" is nothing more than some marketing PR; an easy response to appease the outcry over the LFD announcement. In reality, no one will check the box once they discover that wait times are going to be several times longer than x-realm, and Carbine knows that. There is a quote floating around somewhere, where Carbine says the reason they went x-realm in the first place is because same-server wait times were not acceptable.

    Besides that, even if you personally are willing to wait several hours for a group to form, all the other negative aspects of x-realm are still present. There is still zero accountability or community building; if someone gets labeled as a bad apple they still have the shelter of anonymity provided by the x-realm tool to run to where they can continue their bad behavior and play.
    Milamilou likes this.
  12. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I agree, same server does not imply greater skills, and only to a low degree better behavior - I have seen far more badly behaved people on same server world boss pugs than on the crossrealm pugs I attend, but then again, openraid.us has consequence to a degree that server realm community do not.

    I have about 20 people from crossrealm on battletag, when I once in a while prune my friends list, 7 oldies from before I started attending openraid.us events, the rest from openraid events. These people (and openraid.us) are fast becomming my network for getting into pugs for all sorts of content, be it heroic scenarios, LFR (semi)premades, normals and heroic current or prior xpac raids/achievements, or world bosses.

    As for my realm, I sometimes have luck seeing someone announce a world boss raid in progress, occasionally someone in guild ask in guild chat, so I jump on those, but other than that, I do not sit in trade/lfg chat in the city the required time for grass to grow over my corpse to get into realm pugs.

    The realm forums has the topic up about realm events not happening, and suggesting that those who wants to plan something make openraid.us event for server only - which is an option - is not something anyone with raid leading skills appears to want to do, so instead they stay frustrated with how chat spamming is not working on our realm.

    My community is crossrealm. I know some find this offensive, but to me it has brought about a greater time in content, since my guild stopped doing 25 man raids at the end of WotLK. Before then the guild was my community with a couple of stragglers on my friends list who were ex-guildies or people I grouped with occasionally outside guild perk hours.

    Servers and region segregation is so last decade and the realm communities suffer from people only talking about it instead of nuturing it and working with what they have got, like a great feature for planning realm pugs using openraid.us - it is easier to blame the lack of community on game features after all - and from open world content not having group content outside optionally grouping dailies - nothing that require grouping in open world content to achieve character progress.

    This is something missing in WoW that I hope Wildstar will have, even though my experience is that one rarely get a group from it, it is a more attractive option than sitting in the city spamming a lfg/trade chat to get something done. A regular looking for group window, that gives you a LFG behind your name, marks you on a list on a lfg window that may even include role choices and a comment on what specifically one is looking for.
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  13. Fishsticks

    Fishsticks Cupcake-About-Town

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    I just want to take a moment to juxtapose your first paragraph, where you complain about over-generalization, with your second paragraph, where you tell me that I will absolutely know people based on your singular personal experience.




    ^^^^ okay, fair enough, I'm alright with that.
  14. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    That had that in wow prior to the LFR feature. You could put your name in a list for certain things with your role, and a message. I joined it a few times, but it was a bad joke. There was only ever 2 or 3 people in it.

    And I am saying I don't believe it. I pug a lot too, and the only people I remember back then were the good players, and I would put them on my friends list. The average to bad players weren't worth remembering, and very few people back then tried to ninja or troll or anything.

    Heck, right now I have about a dozen people on my ignore list, and I couldn't tell you why any one of them are there. How about you?
  15. Vexed

    Vexed Cupcake-About-Town

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    The lfr ui was totally different to the lfg. The lfg ui was implemented in TBC and was in WOLTK up until ulduar. Lfg list was always full of people with small comments about their char. Only downside to it was the cherry picking that went on. Check armory/guild/progress and if you pass the acceptable threshold you got an invite.
  16. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I can yes, but I use an addon where it lets me type a short reason why I have them ignored and whenever I mouseover that player or if he happens to be in group I am in, I get a sound effect and the reason flashes on my screen.
    ....but I haven't really needed that reminder because I do remember the mouth breathers on my server, and did remember the ones in Van/BC too.

    I also recall there being several people with small notes, and cherry picking was done in trade chat too, but thats where server rep helped somewhat, people could look at your note and guild tag and see your experience based on progression vs being hung up on the gearscore thing.
  17. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    I was on a lower pop server, so that is probably the difference. On the flip side though, with more people it becomes harder to remember all the additional names and guilds.
    ----------------------------------------------------

    I am unsure why people are still complaining about this though, seeing as WS will have an option to limit LFD to your server. You can always spam chat if you prefer as well, but I rarely see that done unless it is for a timed event or something. What more could you possible want?

    I might try the server limitation, but I doubt it will be very popular. Especially amongst dps, seeing as it will drastically increase the queue time pretty significantly.
  18. Sapien

    Sapien Cupcake-About-Town

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    Great post.
  19. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    Yeah, it is one of those things that is good on paper, but in reality gets little to no use.

    Not sure how the ignore list works in other games, but in WoW I add a comment to the name, the option is there.
  20. Splash

    Splash New Cupcake

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    For WoW, the problem with LFG wasn't that it existed. Like some have expressed it was that the dungeons themselves when the tool was finally implemented were already easy faceroll content by that time. So what happened is that everyone got use to queuing for dungeons and then facerolling through them without even a word to the other people in the group. So by the time the next expansion rolled around (which I think was Cata, but I may have my timeline off) people got upset when they started trying to do dungeons with the LFG tool only to keep wiping, so Blizzard toned down the difficulty because the players were accustom to not having to communicate or talk to the other players in the LFG groups they were put in. There was this expectation that because it was a group made with LFG that they didn't need to communicate or even coordinate with the other players.

    Basically Blizzard created the monster by not having the tool to begin with and when they put it out the community got use to easy content using the tool and was unwilling to adapt or change to accommodate harder content later on.

    If a game starts off with an LFG tool and the content is hard and everyone knows that they have to communicate and coordinate to get through it, then you go back to the days of everyone saying "hi" or "hello", "who's the healer?", "who's tanking?" "who's been here before?", "Does anyone want to lead?"; because the content will require that these things be discussed and decided on. If you can just start pulling and never say anything to the other people in the group then the content is likely too easy and people will regress to the simplest method of doing things; and since typing takes time and effort it is the first thing to go and the group suffers for it.

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