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K.I.C.K.S.T.A.R.T.R. an alternative to flat monthly fees

Discussion in 'Gaming Arena' started by Ohoni, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, this wouldn't be a place where you could vote for things that haven't even been conceptualized yet. The basic concepts might already be worked out, and they would be presented to the player as something they might like (similar to how ANet recently offered players a choice between adding a "Fall of Abadon" fractal or a "Thermanova Reactor" fractal). If the players rapidly fund the project, then more team members would be placed on fast-tracking the project. If it takes a while to gain full funding, then a skeleton crew would continue to work on it while other team members would be working on other projects that used similar skills. If the project did not see funding at all, then it may be scrapped entirely, the team moved to a different project, and any art assets or gameplay mechanics developed for that project might be salvaged and used elsewhere.
  2. Kallor

    Kallor Cupcake

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    Ohoni, seriously learn to use the quote function. Your posts are a mess and hard to follow. It's not that difficult to do and improves clarity. The fact that you can't be bothered shows a distinct lack of respect for your own posts, and if you think so little of your own posts how is anyone else supposed to think any better?

    Sure I can find my own words but it's basically impossible to follow anyone else's thread of contribution.
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  3. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    I believe that we've asked Ohoni (sorry if it wasn't you that we asked Ohoni - just remember this convo with someone!) to do this a long time ago. The response "it's easier the way i do it because i've been doing it this way for a long time, and don't want to learn differently."
  4. Kallor

    Kallor Cupcake

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    If he thinks his posts and ideas are worth reading then he will make an effort to use the tools available to improve clarity. If he doesn't think his posts are worth reading then he won't spend the time. If he doesn't think his posts are worth reading then why should anyone bother reading/responding?

    The fact that this appears to be a recurring issue that he refuses to rectify shows the contempt that he holds this community. His time is too important.

    Maybe he has some good points, but in every thread that comes to mind where he participates, it ends up in a confusing pile of unfollowable quotes. It's in his own best interests to keep his posts clear so I find it hard to understand why he won't make an effort.
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  5. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I quote what people say. If you're reading the entire thread (and you should) then you shouldn't have any trouble following the flow of the conversation.
  6. EtherealOmega

    EtherealOmega Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ohoni, do you read the European interviews or watch the ones in English on youtube that have been done by Frost or Gaffney or the other big wigs at Carbine? The factors that went into their decision-making have been publicly discussed for some time now.

    Remember, their business model also had to be cleared by NCSoft (the people bankrolling their payroll and development costs) which might explain why we are seeing a B2P on top of a subscription with a hybrid F2P (Play-To-Pay) model.

    I think every thread that talks about the business model boils down to this: If you don't want to pay for this game in its entirety, then do not play it.

    I'm happy to see a developer devote a serious amount of resources long-term to solo-player content and PvP content--making it part of the regular patch scheduling--and also for providing variance between patches to keep things fresher.

    They may not be reinventing the wheel with much of what they are doing, but darn does that luxury car look nice.
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  7. Kallor

    Kallor Cupcake

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    Different people have different opinions and different motivations. You cut and paste multiple peoples comments and lump them all together and it makes it a complete and utter mess.

    There are numerous threads going on at the same time so jumping into this thread and seeing a pile of unattributed quotes loses context. Stacking quotes with no reference is detrimental to your own posts, and needlessly confusing.

    You KNOW that doing this is both annoying and confusing (you've been told before by different people) and yet you continue to do it. So either you deliberately do it to confuse the arguments and make people just give up and ignore you, or you don't care enough to be clear.

    Are your own opinions valuable? Yes/No
    Are they worth sharing? Yes/No
    Is being understood important? Yes/No
    Is your time valuable? Yes/No
    Is other peoples time valuable? Yes/No

    If your answers are No then continue what you are doing. If you answers are Yes then take the time and effort to make your post clear and readable.

    Your current efforts are basically giving a two fingered salute to everyone say "FU, you aren't important enough for me to take the time to make my own posts clear". That's the message you are giving, is that really the message you want people to get?
  8. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    This is going off topic into the area of posting about one persons posting methods, and I am getting the feeling that people would be less interested in that, if they agreed with what the person posted.

    I thought we were better at sticking to the ball on WSC.
  9. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Which will only result in millions of people not playing the game at all, when a better model would have had them buying the box at minimum, and likely also at least 1/4 to 1/2 of a standard subscription rate over the following year in additional purchases. That is not a prediction, that is a fact. Carbine views this as a sound strategy, but that doesn't mean that they're right.

    I haven't seen any developers that don't do this, many of which do it while being to some degree F2P (and no, CREED is not "F2P" in any reasonable sense).

    Look I've said my piece on the issue, I'd prefer to stay on topic, if you think it would help anything, take it to PMs.
  10. EtherealOmega

    EtherealOmega Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have a friend who hasn't paid for EVE with real currency for a couple of years. I would call that F2P, but no, I did call it more accurately, Play-To-Pay.

    The people who scream the loudest for F2P don't want to pay for a game, ever. Kickstarter is a horrible way to bankroll a game. People's jobs are on the line and that requires a steady cash flow. If they have a steady flow of 250,00 people paying at least $15 a month they would earn $45 million a year just on subs not including CREDD purchases. That is enough to bankroll any future dev costs, payroll, utilities and taxes, plus a couple mil for profit. With the various interviews with Gaffney talking about EQ and UO being a success with a couple hundred-thousand subs, I think they are ready for that if that were the case. This is why we see the $60 Box and the $15 sub with the $20 CREDD. You need to think like a business owner when discussing business decisions.

    To the OP: Have you ever run a business (had to care about profit and loss and actually using what they teach you in various Microeconomics courses) or a department at a corporation?

    Keep this in mind, right before SWTOR and TSR went F2P they had a major reduction in staff. Their increase in profitable was just as much from increase revenue as reduction in HR expenses (insurance, payroll, taxes).
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  11. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    They are launching with every type of content under the sun all with their own progression curve, how is the content being played not relevant.



    It would prove what people think they want, not what they actually want nor what is good for the game as a whole.


    I still disagree. Its better to keep following your philosophy as a developer then give in to the whims of the majority.



    No, i don't think they will.


    It wouldn't be the first time players are incredibly shortsighted.


    No, tor had very little in the way of content. An IP can draw people in but content makes them stay. IF rift could stay P2P for 2 years while wow was near its peak why cant wildstar do even better.



    Ill give you its quite hard to find anything beyond the first month. Most recent thing i can find is from the Q4 earning call last year.

    http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/blizzard-announce-q4-earnings-wow-is-dead/

    By now its probably closer to 13-14 million. Almost everyone in wow buys the expansions because there's almost nothing to do outside of the current raid tier.


    Yes people that play the game watch the events. I don't think anyone who hasn't picked up LoL for instance cares about the LCS or any of their tournaments. Within wow tons of people pay attention to the world first race for a new raid. There are in fact sponsored guilds. With wildstar promoting weekly challenges for the fastest clear how is this any different then any other esport.


    I saw that from the pve side, not the pvp side. They still have a hardcore audience just not the same one. But the fact is, with a progression based game, you cant add a new tier of solo content without first adding the raid and pvp content. Its all going to come out at about the same time if its anything like rift or wow.
  12. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    You called it a "Hybrid F2P" model as well, which it is not. You have to pay, you just do so using currency earned ingame, which is in turn earned via cash, so at the end of the day, somebody has to pay cash money, just not always the player recieving the subscription.

    It also doesn't work unless you play a lot, or are very good at making money in game. Honestly, I would feel much better about it if it were based on a currency other than gold, which often flows into the hands of farmers and market manipulators more than through standard gameplay. Like in GW2 you earn 1 "Laurel" each time you complete a daily series, and ten for every time you complete a monthly, so potentially 40 each month. If there were a way to "Play to pay," I would be far more comfortable with a system where you can pay, say, twenty-five Laurels or so to pay for your subscription, rather than something where you have to pay gold, a far more variable commodity.

    Maybe some genuine players will be able to play for free, and it won't all be hedgefund players and the extremely hardcore 40-hours a week players that will be able to afford to play for "free," but somehow I'm incredible skeptical of that. I play a lot, but in games I am rarely a "fat cat," and doubt I would be able to afford to regularly pay for CREED, not enough to gamble actually buying the game to try. In any case, it's a discussion better had in the CREED threads than in this one, which is about a method for voting on new content.

    And yet. . . I think it's fair to say that I'm in favor of F2P, and I've spent $60 on the box for GW2, and would for Wildstar as well if I knew that I could play it indefinitely without paying another dime, and I've also spent somewhere around $75 more on various purchases within the game over that time, even though I was never under any obligation to do so, and intend to make additional purchases over time. I would also consider myself near the bottom of the purchasers in the game, since I've seen plenty of characters running around with visible signs that they've been making good use of the cash market in that game.

    In previous games I did pay monthly subs, grudgingly, but I've since soured on the whole idea, and will never pay a monthly sub again, regardless of my interest in the game (even though ironically I'm far more capable of affording a fee than ever before, I just refuse to do it).

    On what basis do you believe that the only people who are in favor of F2P are those who never intend to pay anything? Where is the data that backs up that claim, especially considering that F2P games tend to far out-perform their subscription versions? It would seem that at least some F2P player pay significantly more than they would have under a P2P model, I can't see any evidence that F2P players are any less willing to pay in some form than subscription players, they just are less interested in a fixed monthly fee to continue playing the game.

    Yes, and if wishes were fishes then we'd have seafood every night, but that's unlikely as well. A steady 250K players is rather optimistic if they go with a subscription model. This isn't Star Wars. In any case, GW2 is making twice that per year on their cash shop alone, so if money is all they're concerned with, why not go that route instead?

    Yes, but EQ and UO were a decade ago, when development costs were considerably cheaper. There really isn't a whole lot from that period that still applies to the modern market, it's like saying that Tower Records was doing big business in the 90s, so it's the perfect time to launch a new CD store.

    I am, that's why I'm in favor of the most profitable MMO model available.

    Not a large business, but I have run a small one, with a variable income stream, and it isn't always convenient, but sometimes it's the best way of getting the job done.

    Perhaps so, but they also reported increases in pure revenue, which staff reductions would play no role in. Other games have been F2P while maintaining their full staff, while many subscription games before the days when they all went F2P also had massive layoffs/restructuring in the months following launch.
  13. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I explained that already. Reread the post you were responding to for my response.

    And since what they think they want is more likely than anything else to be the thing that they do want, it's still better feedback than raw stats would provide.

    If they don't, then they didn't truly enjoy that feature, again, problem solved.

    Ok, so as long as Wildstar has more content than the $300m game, they'll do fine. Gotcha.

    Rift launched several years ago, when subscriptions were still considered viable, while Wildstar is launching at least six months from now, when subscriptions are something of a bad joke. Also, I wouldn't say "they managed to hold out for two years without collapsing completely" is an indication of rousing success. You're basically just advocating that Wildstar should squeeze every penny possible out of those willing to pay for subs before eventually doing what they should have done from the start by going F2P.

    Fair enough. I like the title of that article, btw. Here's another interesting article about the potential for WoW to go F2P once their sub numbers drop too low (3-5 years, most likely).

    In any case that's more than can be said about raiding. I love GW2 but have no interest in watching PvP matches, and even less interest in watching dungeon runs, except perhaps once to see how it's done, and even then it's not something I would miss if it didn't exist.

    The reason you brought up LoL in the first place, if I understand you correctly, is to make the point that the developers of a game have some interest in supporting their top tier community. I agree with you so far as it applies to LoL, Starcraft, and other such games where there is an entertainment value to spectating, but I don't follow how that would in any way relate to anything Wildstar intends to contain.

    Other esports have an audience.You can't just claim to be an esport, it's the audience that makes you an esport, and I just don't see the potential for one here.

    There's no reason it should have to. Both GW2 and DCUO routinely alternate content types. For example, the first DCUO DLC pack added some new raids/dungeons and powerset, but no PvP, and then months later they had a new one that included PvP additions. There's no reason you would have to lockstep all the content.
  14. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    No your only argument is people are going to do content they don't like because the content the do like doesn't provide rewards. Yet carbine has already promised progression for all areas of content.



    All of your posts are based on the flawed idea that people actually know what they want.


    Quite literally every other mmo i have ever played has had more endgame content then tor. They spent all their money on voice acting and ads. They had no idea what having a good endgame involved and people left. So yes wildstar better have a hell of a lot more content then that game.


    You really think there was this huge change in 2 years? Statistics show most people wont pay 2 subs at once, with wow getting less and less relevant sub mmos now are more likely to succeed then 2 years ago. You wont have the whole why would i play this when i could play wow issue with a game that is so far from wow.


    Which again would have nothing to do with the payment model but the fact that its such an old game at this point. They don't have enough new blood to keep the game going.

    Its not about watching it. In fact most hardcore guilds arnt going to be streaming on their first kills. The point is there are a lot of people who follow the race and just because you wouldn't miss it doesn't make it any less compelling to others.


    It already exists in wow. I have seen streams of competitive raid clears where 4 of the top raid guilds in wow competed to clear an instance the fastest that got as many viewers as SC2 tournaments.




    This is a terrible system. Just because it has happened dosn't make it a good idea. If a raid came out with a new tier of gear and pvpers got nothing there would be huge balance problems.
  15. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    <Mod Face> Drop the ad hominem or this thread will be locked. </Mod Face>
  16. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    To the OP:

    I don't understand what this system accomplishes that the heat maps they have do not, other than potentially making the game focus on whales instead of steady subscription money. The other issue is it would skew what the developers work on to something which is wanted by a minority (albeit a rich minority). But, if they simply pay attention to their heat maps (like they have been) it lets them know what content is "fun" for the majority of the time, as well as develop some content which people haven't thought of or didn't know might be fun. The other issue is you force developers to work on things that they may know is a dead end, so they have less motivation to work on it.

    There's also an issue with keeping the funds going towards exactly what the consumer thinks they paid for. For instance, if a consumer pays for the development of "mounts", because they want to see new mounts, but the developer uses that money to instead revamp the mount system to something which most players find more fun, but the one who paid for it does not, then they are liable to make claims of injustice, and that they paid all this money specifically for something that was not given to them.

    If the developers instead focus on heat maps, they can help to improve the systems that people are actually using, not ones that people THINK they want.
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  17. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    Increased player feedback is a good thing. However, tying this to a payment model just breeds problems that have been brought up in this thread (increased community division, unrealistic content expectations, muddled vision, players not understanding what is good for their enjoyment). Not sure whether I would want periodic in-game feedback like they do with betas, but there can definitely be more out of game surveys, maybe with incentives like in-game fun items for participating.
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  18. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I think it's more important to have feedback in-game, because otherwise you get the forum effect, in that the players who enjoy the game and are actually very into the game will be... (guess what) playing the game, and not trolling the forums. Same thing with a survey out of game, those who have complaints will complain, and there is no balance of positive feedback, because the players who like the game will be playing the game and not taking a survey. This was a big issue in WoW's most recent expansion, where the forum crowd ended up somehow getting listened to, but the people who are actually loyal to the game say nothing.

    I think the best way to do surveys is exit surveys, when a player decides to quit the game, get feedback from them. This is because it will give insight as to why they left, and how to get some players back, and possible changes to help fix things that make players leave. The most important thing to remember is that those who are in the game need to be retained. Again, I think data visualizations which are based on what players are doing as opposed to what players are saying is the most important way to prioritize development cycles, because it's based on actual numbers, not numbers based on a subjective perception.
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  19. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah, I agree. It is just that balance of intrusiveness/timing and accuracy with in-game feedback. I know I have done betas in which I just want to keep going, I close out the window or just do snap 5s down the board or something. They could test out the in-game feedback, and get feedback on the feedback mechanism (insert Xzibit I hear you like feedback meme).
  20. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Like I said a survey is a bad way to do this, instead base it off of data which is collected intrinsically from the servers. Like, figure out the number of unique accounts which attempt raids, how many hours each unique account spends in a given raid, how many players re-do the same raid, how many complete the raid and never return to it, same w/ solo same with pvp. If you start collecting enough information, you know where to put your development resources and you know what parts of the game are relatively weak.

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