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[Massively] Nexus Telgraph: Raiding in Wildstar...

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by whocares8310, Jun 11, 2013.

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  1. Dayor Knight

    Dayor Knight New Cupcake

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    I only read about half this thread, so do forgive me if I am repeating an idea already posted....

    Let's say that raid bosses have unique mechanics that offer them significant resistances to certain types of damage. As you progress through the various "tiers" of raid bosses, you gain access to weapons that help to lower these effects. Perhaps you get items that have unique effects to strip buffs, for example. While this would offer you the ability to use it outside of raids, it might lack the stat bonuses granted from non-raid items making it into something very cool, but at the same time not necessarily more awesome by default. You could even make an argument that only raid reward gear should offer active effects (while having lower stats) and only crafted gear should offer the absolute highest stats (save for named ultra-rare items, of course).

    The trick would be to find a way to reward equal amount of effort invested with relatively equal rewards, while still giving both raid focused players those "1337" rewards they crave. Having a belt that procced 5 seconds of total damage immunity when you reached 25% health with a 2 minute cool-down would be an example of what I mean. Yes, your item would do something for you that a non-raid player would not be able to do, however it would have less STR and AGI than the kick-ass crafted belt someone made after maxing out their crafting skills, with both having relatively similar DEF. This would also encourage players to mix gear from various sources, rather than one being out right better than the other... without absolutely gimping a player who only wanted to play through one type of content and nothing else.

    Someone asked how you can make solo content as difficult as raid content, I think. That is actually not that difficult, so long as you make sure it is actually solo content. You could walk up and challenge the local boxing champion to a fight, for example; making both of you him immune to everything else until either you or he are at 1% health. If there were enough champs scattered around to offer you a basic end game set of gear, you could balance most of your max level content around the player having it. This same idea could be applied to group battles, where you and your friends enter into an arena to try and fight the Emasculator 9000, which is balanced around a party of 5. Either one boss per arena with them being found in larger settlements, or have it so that there was only a single arena located in each faction's capital and you had to defeat an ever more difficult encounter to continue to earn rewards.
  2. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    Ah my mistake on that one (I'll edit it out). The way you comment on things feels like English is a second language to you and how I skim through things. You have a very different prospective on Raiding then me or Hardcore Raiders have. ArdentSun has a similar Hardcore mentality or maybe you aren't competitive so you don't mind having basically normalized gear.

    Anyways one thing is clear. We obviously see things differently.
  3. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    Thanks, I hope it actually gets read and/or gets through to some people. I could talk in circles for hours just trying to beat this stuff into some people's heads, I really hope some people get it.
    Think about the Rogue Legendary Dagger quest chain in WoW, specifically the part where you have to sneak into Gilneas alone and fight the black dragon guy alone. THat was difficult solo content. It required you to bring your A game and everything you know about your class and perfect timing, or you'd fail, plain and simple. It was beautiful, a true work of art.

    The only time I will ever consider solo content to be as hard as raid content is when it is like that, and even then it isn't really as hard. You still have to bring your A game to a raid, but you also have to find and coordinate 20-40 people, which isn't easy at all.

    All in all, there is no way possible to make solo content as hard as raid content, and that is because the human element is an extremely fickle thing, especially when we are talking about 20-40 of them. There is no way to properly account for the difficulty 39 other people add to a situation, and honestly even if there was, forcing the burden of 39 people onto one soloer would make the content nigh impossible. There is a reason these games are called MMO and built around social interaction, the entirety of the game is mostly designed around that. Sure you can have solo content, but it will never be on the same scale as a raid.
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  4. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    You have some interesting ideas, but most of your ideas would have to be implemented as a Core concept in a new game. You would need to focus your PvE gameplay on Resistances, but you would have major balance issues in PvP. As far as gear and weapon resistances the only MMO, I can think of is WoW Vanilla and they were basically useless Stats except I think you need some Fire Resistance in MC but I could be wrong, didn't raid Vanilla. I admit I am probably missing on a lot of this idea. I do think this would fit more of a Sandbox MMO than Theme Park since how would you balance tanking and healing with a Resistance Base system.

    Once again an interesting concept but that Belt has major balance issues, mainly for PvP. I agree with encouraging players to do various content, but some people don't want too. As you can see from this thread some people don't want to Raid and just want to Solo. Some people don't want to do anything but PvP. Once again I could be missing your general idea.

    I could be missing the point again and sorry if I am. Basically what I got from that last paragraph is make a long and hard Quest chain. Which I still don't think is equivalent to maintaining 40 people and raid 25-40 min Bosses and wiping constantly and having to deal with the multitude of mechanics. We are talking around 20 hours a week put into raiding and you might not even gear piece or get only one. So unless that quest chain takes you 20 hours to complete then...
  5. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

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    Except that nobody in this thread is talking about lowering the difficulties of raiding at all.


    So the practiced "casuals are ruining raiding" soapbox is completely pointless here.


    There's two lines of discussion in this thread...actually..no..there's one

    Can, and if so, how to make endgame solo content as challenging and meaningful as endgame raiding. Not the other way around, so your raiding is going untouched, which means you can settle down.


    Personally, I don't see why this discussion has went on so long. Can solo content be as challenging as raiding?

    yes. Easily. Just take all the boss mechanics from raid bosses and raiders brag about beating and slap it on solo bosses.

    Make a boss that's only vulnerable for 5 seconds while he reloads

    Make a boss with a puzzle or something around it

    Make a boss where you need pinpoint timing to avoid deadly attacks

    you know..normal raid and dungeon stuff that developers suddenly forget how to do when they make a solo mission.

    like...its not that hard to make challenging endgame solo content that isn't just a reputation grind

    "raiding" is not the endgame, raiding is a part of the endgame. It's a playstyle, just like pvp, soloing, and small teams.
  6. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    English is my second language yes. My girlfriend who is quite fluent in english proof read my posts and she understood my posts perfectly. I am completelly fine with disagreeing with different subjects, but the problem with you seems to be that you don't understand the subject.

    Do you understand that you are trying to argue that you can not make endgame Solo content harder than endgame raiding and I am arguing that you can make solo gear best gear for solo content and raid gear best for raid gear so that the gear sets are superior only in the content where they are acquired from?

    We are discussing about different subjects.. Its like you saying Oranges are the best fruit, and I am saying Kiwi fruit tastes better than banana.

    Also about my raiding history:

    I have been world top DPS in world of logs as fury warrior in WotLK. I have been server best protection warrior. World top kills I have got in the guilds I have been have been in the top 100. I could had got a spot in two of the world absolute top guilds, but turned the offer down due to the insane amount of raiding they do, even outside progress fights. I have got 2600 MMR on my warrior during seasons 678 and season 11.

    I have always read everything about my class, theorycrafted my class inside out, spent huge amounts of time perfecting my keybinds, UI, rotation, even PC equipment.

    I am sure I would fit your idea of hardcore raider and I do not understand where would you get any different kind of a idea except if you completely misunderstood what I meant.

    I will try one last time.

    I think you can create item budgets so that items you get from solo content are best for solo content, and items you get from raid content are best for raid content. You can do this in such of a way that items you got from raid content are not optimal for solo content, and items you got from solo content aren't optimal for raiding.

    I also think that you can possibly do solo content that is harder than raiding, but that is completely different discussion.








    I truly think you completelly misunderstood what I said.
  7. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    I truly do not understand how this happened either, there has to be some kind of misunderstanding somewhere and badly.

    And like I said difficulty in endgame raiding boils down to three different things generally=
    Time
    Space
    And numbers.

    Time= Time you have to execute ability to Kill Enemy, Disable Enemy, Control Enemy, Save your self.
    Space= The space enemy ability takes and the space you are left with
    Numbers= Damage done to raid, damage needed to kill the boss, healing needed to stay alive.

    Decrease time, decrease space, increase numbers and you can already make harder encounter for solo play than it is in raiding.

    This is for individual person. Collectively making 40 persons do things seamlessly as a group is vastly harder than making 40 persons do a task alone by them selves. This doesn't mean tho that the group effort is harder for individual player.
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  8. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    So I was right about English being your second Language. Haha even you can see the Irony.

    I could list similar accomplishments but I'll avoid the Epeen since it is pointless. But you have the mentality of a Casual player which is not bad, or you simply have no competitive bone in your body or both which is fine as well. I am actually amazed though that you are this skilled yet the knowledge on Raiding....

    If that was your argument you got way off topic ever since I countered your point on optimizing Stats. Basically, you dismissed Raid Dmg and were talking about how you only need Stamina/Endurance if you make mistakes in a Raid. Then you went on for like 5 posts about how you don't know what System to implement and how your examples were bad. I don't feel like going over all the previous posts so I'll stop there.

    This is my last post since it is obvious this is going nowhere. If you simply think magically implementing a Solo Raid boss is the same as a 40 man Raid boss then have at it. Dismissing the fact that is impossible to give a Solo player mechanics for a 40 man Raid, human error, cooperation, man I could keep going on and on but this is pointless. I give up and we shall see when more information gets release on how the game is going to be.
  9. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    For everyone reading this thread:
    [​IMG]

    This was the only relevant ansver you came up with to my first long post. In this post you make argumentation error, relaying in your authority over the matter with saying "I can go way more in depth..." yet you fail to do so. You do not come up with any kinda theory, numbers or anything else than "I think gear should be X tier lower because I think so." After this you derailed out of the subject massively even thou I tried to keep us going on the right subject with three different posts. You most likely derailed so bad as you misunderstood the whole discussion and now do not have the balls to admit so.

    English might not be my native, but it seems that I would grade better for reading comprehension than you would. No offense.

    This is my last post to you. If other people want to continue this discussion, I am happy to do so. You my friend get to be my first one.. On ignore list.
  10. Tarchannen

    Tarchannen New Cupcake

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    The anti-raiding or everyone-gets-a-trophy garbage in this thread is silly.

    Don't get upset with the results you don't get from the work you didn't do.

    If you want the top of the line stuff, be prepared to slave for it. Last time I checked people don't hand out Porsches to every Joe Schmo. Contrary to popular belief: greatness isn't born, it's struggled for.

    We call the following scenario cause and effect
    Hard Work ----> Great Reward
    Compared to
    Less Work ----> Less Reward

    Additionally, the rarer a thing is (i.e. how many people have killed the end raid-boss Super Kill-a-Tron 9001 vs how many have killed the group-content boss Captain Pewptypants), the greater is its value.

    Common sense and <REDACTED>.

    Class is dismissed, this lecture won't be on the test.
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  11. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is the main post I was commenting about, and it was from you:
    This basis of my post was not only to keep raid difficulty the same, but to not hand out the raid content and gear to people that don't participate in a raid. Like I said, paying the sub doesn't give you the right to all of the content. It gives you the right to play the game and try to get the content/gear as a reward, because that is what motivates you to play. Raiders are only getting more content because they want it and are trying harder, simple as that.

    As for the rest of your post about it being simple to make solo instances as hard as raid instances, no it isn't. In a solo instance you only have one person to look out for, as such you have a larger margin of error, but also a much much smaller chance for an error to happen. If one person dies in a 40man then it might not be a huge deal, if you die solo then it's over. However, the chance that you will die is much lower compared to 40 different minds running in circles around a boss. In a raid you have to depend on everyone else in your group, which is THE THING that makes raids difficult.

    Even if you plop a boss into an instance with really great mechanics scaled down for a solo player, you are never going to have to deal with:
    Coordinating 39 people
    Teaching tactics/mechanics to 39 people
    Working with 39 people
    Talking to 39 people (Trolls and <REDACTED>s and the like)
    etc

    You'll never have to deal with any of that group dynamic, and since (like I said) the human element is so fickle, there is no way to truly make solo content as hard as raids. You would have to put the pressure of 39 people onto one player, and frankly it's impossible.

    TL;DR: Should you get rewards for solo content? Yes of course. Should they be as good/better than raid rewards? No, never. Solo content will never be anywhere near as hard as raids because you cannot account for the human element, especially when it is in 39 other people, and even if you could you wouldn't be able to burden that all on one player.

    Doubleposting. Yes, yes it is harder for the individual. That is because if other people fail or make a mistake, you fail/get penalized too. Everything in a raid depends on those other players, you have to trust and rely on them. Doing something you can do alone will never ever be as hard as something that requires more than 5 people as long as they are scaled properly. You aren't able to take that many human minds into consideration for scaling, and even if you could it would be way too hard at that point for a person to solo.

    And honestly please quit posting troll BS, the only one trolling in that situation is the one posting it. No one is trolling from what I can see, just because someone has a different opinion doesn't make them a troll. And if you honestly think it does then I'm sorry but that is ignorant and immature.
  12. Jarek

    Jarek New Cupcake

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    I really don't understand the anti-raid or anti-solo stances here. As far as I am aware no one wants solo epics to be better for raiding, but the sentiment is that if you put in equal effort, you should get equivalent rewards... not the same but equivalent.

    Now I don't think equal effort means equal time necessarily - raiding requires coordination that soloing doesn't - but if it took longer to get the solo equivalent and the solo gear was targeted for solo not raids then would the raiders care?

    In the same way if raid gear was less effective than the equivalent solo gear for solo specific content (note not general pve but solo specific content - general they should be about the same?), wouldn't that be a solution for everyone? Still effective but not as effective. Or should raid gear simply always be better than everyone else's gear irrespective of the relative effort to get it?
  13. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    The problem is that there is practically no way to make solo content as hard or as time consuming as raiding, as I've expressed in my posts. So it's getting equivalent rewards for less difficulty. If Carbine can find some way to make the solo instances actually as difficult as raiding, then I'd be all for equivalent gear and respectable content.

    They would need to scale down and implement 19-39 human elements, and put those into the solo instance though. It's nigh impossible to not only make the content feel like there are 40 people around you that you rely on while solo, but also to implement it in a way that would not put tremendous burden on the solo player.

    Think of it like this:
    You are tasked with building a one foot tall cabinet.
    40 people are tasked with building a 40 foot tall cabinet.

    That's scaled perfectly, but obviously with 40 people the task grows exponentially more difficult.You need a leader, people need to be set to certain tasks, everyone is relying on each other. Not even mentioning that you first need to FIND 40 people with matching playtimes, goals, and ideals.

    There is really no way to scale that properly for the solo player to have just as rough of a time, and like I said, even if there was, burdening all that onto one player is unrealistically hard. So as it stands, solo players should get gear and content respective to the difficulty they are at, because there is no way that the difficulty is equivalent to raiding.

    Of course as some other people are saying, there would be ways to make the gear you get in solo content to be the best for solo content and the gear in raiding to be the best for raiding. However, it's my opinion that that is largely pointless and just confuses players. What is the point really? So that you can have a few more stats on your gear or a higher ilevel? Who is going to care? It's solo content and the only one playing with you is yourself. Sure, without this you could get raid gear and take it into solo content to make it less hard, but what does that change? Content is supposed to get easier as you get better gear, and it's not like it's going to make it THAT much easier. If you're competitive and worrying about not nabbing those server first solo content bosses because someone else got raid gear, don't be. They would have to be raiding to get the gear first, which means you have a huge head start.

    Wouldn't you rather do solo content, get gear, and then eventually if you want to raid YOU CAN? Without changing your entire gear set and starting from scratch? You can just start to upgrade it if you want.

    There are many ways to implement a system like this, the most notable in my mind being something like agony resistance in GW2. Only solo bosses would have agony attacks, and then raid bosses could have some other type of attack with another type of resistance on the gear. Bam, now the gear only works well in the respective content. But WHY would you want that is what I am asking? You're just complicating things and gimping yourself if you ever do decide to raid, all so that you can have the same ilevel as raiders? An ilevel which doesnt matter since no one is playing with you?

    It's confusing to me.
  14. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    And this here is all I wanted to debate about. I made 6-posts about that exact gear issue, not about how hard group content or how hard solo content is. The examples I used were not about how to make solo content harder or group content harder, it was about how to make certain gear more desirable for that particular content. I kept my self from going derailed for 6 posts, 7h post I had to asver the question difficulty levels also, as it seemed so important for someone. I absolutelly respect everyones opinion, and like to hear them but when person doesn't understand after 8-posts where I try to break it down to kindergarden levels that "WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME MATTER" I have to draw a conclusion the person has either misunderstood something or is trying to troll me. He said him self he didn't misunderstand so I drawed a conclusion he is troll.

    Indeed, I said that too. The examples I represented might not have been perfect or even good ideas, I just showed there is way to do different and important gearing as that was the question. How can you separate different gears in PvE? I said I am sure Carbine could come up with even better ways to make different gear interesting in different areas of the game.

    Please now read this and try to have some kind of reading comprehension: If you take exactly same mechanics and implement them in both 40-man raid content and solo content, this exactly same mechanic will be vastly more challenging to individual player in a 40-man raid. This is just due to the human element, having forty other players who can do mistakes around you, making it harder for you to do your job.

    Do we have understanding of my point there?


    I also think that if carbine wanted, they could separate PvE gear for Solo Content, Small Group Content and Raid Content. Just by balancing aspects of the game so that it requires different gear.

    Do you understand now that, the line above is not about is 40-man raid harder than solo content, it is about the gearing question represented in the thread.

    Now I will debate about can you make solo content harder than 40 man raid. Now and not before, before I talked about making different gear desirable for different player type

    I did not suggest using the same raid boss for solo group, I suggested making specialized solo content. The other issues you have are indeed part of raiding content tho most of this is on the shoulders of raid leader. If individual player does just exactly what he is expected and ignores others (To a degree ofcourse, you should help your group members with your full toolset) one can get decently far.


    You are completelly right. If the exactly same mechanic from 40-man raid is taken to a solo content, it is way easier to execute just because the amount of space and time available for you increases and you do not have to care about someone elses mistakes.

    Now this is where you are starting to have a problems with your argument. Remember that the question represented was:

    Is it possible to make solo content harder than 40-man raid content?

    The ansver is very simple yes. And you gave the ansver.

    Indeed that is scaled quite well, and the person who does the smaller job alone will have easier time completing his build if the 40-persons who are building the bigger structure are of the same skill level as builders as he is.

    But you touched the issue of scaling without understanding you countered your own argument.

    What if we give 1 person a task of building a 500 foot high skyscraper and we give the 40-persons a task to build a simple outhouse. Will the solo person or the 40-persons have harder time to complete their project?
    This again is very crude example and exaggerated and is no way fair.

    But if you can make that solo project harder than the 40 man project, even tho with exaggerated examples it means that somewhere is a sweet spot where solo content is little harder than the 40-man raid content. Keep in mind what I said thou, if you use exactly same mechanics in 40-man and solo, it will always be harder in 40-man.

    And now remember your debate was

    You said there is no way to make it harder. Yes there is, just by increasing the scaling factors against solo content.

    If your debate would had been
    I would completelly agree with you. But who is to say it has to be fair balanced, if you want to make content hard you can just turn to buttons and make it harder.

    Edit: Typos and wrong things went accidentally inside quotes.
  15. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Also I apologize the troll picture, that guy just made me so steamed up when he didnt understand the simple fact we were talking about different thing and then proceeded to insult me and my raiding experience and undermining my expertise.
  16. Anstalt

    Anstalt Cupcake-About-Town

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    Firstly, going all the way back to the OP, I feel that the OP completely missed the point of the massively article. Likely, completely way off the mark missed it!

    The original article posted on massively states that the author previously hated raiding because in so many MMOs raiding has become the only way to progress and acquire decent gear. As a consequence, many of these same MMOs have dumbed down raiding so that everyone can complete it. This dumbing down annoyed raiders because they no longer had the challenging gameplay they enjoyed, and also annoyed pvpers and soloers who were still forced to raid and that even tho it was easy to complete, these people were still being "forced" in to a playstyle that they dont enjoy.

    The author then went on to explain that they are happy that Wildstar is returning to a more traditional endgame philosophy: raiding is going back to being tailored just for raiders and wildstar is going to offer alternative progression paths for those who dont enjoy raiding. That is a very good thing, and the OP completely missed the point of the original article.



    From what I can gather, the rest of this thread has boiled down to an arguement about how to make alternative progression paths match up to the perceived heights of raiding.



    My point of view on this is that those who are stating that raiding will always be harder than soloing due to the human element are only looking at it from one point of view. My point of view is that raiding, for an average raider, is extremely easy. Boss tactics are usually pretty simple and an individuals' job within the raid is usually more focused and simple than when playing solo or small group content. The only time raiding actually becomes difficult is when you are one of the leaders of the raid. However, the difficulty is not provided by the game, but by human nature: some people are just idiots and trying to get 40 people to work together and not be idiots is hard work. Have you ever done a raid where 100% of the raid members are highly skilled? I've done a few of them and they have been sooooo damn easy! Once you remove the human difficulty, raids become easy.


    This is why I believe that solo play can be made just as hard as raiding. All the tactics, skills, you know, actual difficult gameplay from raids can be added to solo encounters. This will mean that the actual skill required to complete solo content will be just as high as 40man raiding. As such, I think the rewards should be equal too.

    If you continue to insist that solo can never be as difficult as raid content then I ask you to revisit the actual mechanics of raids and what an individual person has to do. I maintain that you can replicate the difficulty of raids in a solo setting. The only person/people who have increased difficulty levels in raids are teh raid leaders, so if you want extra rewards for raiding then I feel that only the raid leader should get them!


    Finally, for the record, I am not a solo player, I am a raider and pvper, a guild leader and raid leader. I am not a fan of tiered gear or of separated gear between solo/raid/pvp. I believe that if Wildstar wants long term success then it needs to provide equivalent rewards for all activity types and encourage people to take part in all activities.
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  17. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is a point I made that I think you may have overlooked. It is possible to equalize raiding and solo content by simply imbalancing solo content to be harder. However, in order to compensate for the human element you would need to raise the difficulty past any reasonable amount to a place normal individuals would not be able to achieve. It's better in my opinion to make the content easier with lower rewards, than nigh impossible with the same rewards.
    I read all of your post, but I feel like this is your main point and it's the one I'd like to respond to. What you have stated here is simply not the case. Yes the raid leader has a rough time, but he is not the only one facing difficulty. In fact, raids aren't even hard because they are very difficult, they are hard because you have so many people who can easily make mistakes and ruin the whole thing. It is true that in a raid each individuals job is fairly easy, but the reason raids are hard is the human element. With solo content you are in complete control of the situation, while in a raid you are only 1/40th of the situation. You need to rely on all those other people. It isn't about raids being difficult for the individual, it's about them being difficult for the group because SO MANY things can go wrong with that many people.

    And you can't just assume that everyone is "highly skilled" as that just ruins the entire point of discussing this. Not everyone is highly skilled, and things can go very wrong in raids. The difference between solo content and 40 man content is the difference between 40 people guarding a castle and 1 person guarding a door. Is it harder for each member of the 40 to guard their part of the castle? No. But the single door is still much easier AS A WHOLE to guard, because you are in complete control of the situation rather than depending on 39 other people to do their jobs correctly.

    If everyone always did what they were supposed to correctly, then this wouldn't be an issue as the human element would no longer exist. Sadly, no one is perfect, and that is why trying to scale 40 people against 1 person is unrealistic.
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  18. Vanor

    Vanor Cupcake

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    This is exactly the point.

    I don't think there's hardly anyone who prefers solo or small group stuff who actually feel like they should be given raid gear. All that most of us want is some way to progress and get good gear without having to take part in content we don't really care for. Now it would be nice to have some way of seeing the story and lore behind the raid, but there doesn't really need to be a solo version of the raid to do that, just having the story on a wiki somewhere would be fine.

    So again, I and I'd say most solo or small group type players, including casuals don't actually want the same gear raiders get. We just want something to do that offers some sort of progressing while doing something we enjoy. If there's some way to tune the gear so it's better suited for solo/sg play even better because that gives even more option on what they can do gear wise.

    I've said this before in other games and will say it here as well.

    If such a thing is a threat to raids, because you won't be able to find anyone to do them, then that is pretty clear proof that people don't actually want to do the raids and only do it because that's where the best shinnies are. And again, not asking for the same level of gear as a raid, raid can still have the BiS gear, but there's no reason solo can't have say 3rd BiS.
    Vyver likes this.
  19. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    ~Define good, now tell me why if you don't intend to do raid level content you need raid level gear (Btw I'm hugely in favor of having solo gear progression with the stats heavily skewed to make it useless for raiding). I ask this because there are literally pages of casuals crying that because a dev said there would be solo progression they should be getting gear the same tier as raiders. I certainly don't oppose players seeing lore content in solo progression.

    ~Fallacious argument the carrot on a stick is part of the experience and promotes players to continue playing once they have cleared a raid which increases a raids 'life expectancy' in a dev cycle. I love downing bosses and I love getting new helmets/shoulders as well one does not exclude the other, besides the same could be said for all content.

    ~There is a reason, It would make solo content not 5 mans (which don't drop anything like BiS) required to start raiding as gear from solo content would undoubtedly enter the server faster then 5man or raid gear. It would also trivialize raid content and lead to faster progress through the raid and hence put pressure on the devs to churn new content faster.
    Woke and ArdentSun like this.
  20. Vyver

    Vyver "That" Cupcake

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    Seriously, here's this thread in a nutshell
    "we're not asking for better gear just better solo content"
    "BUT YOU CANT HAVE RAID GEAR. SOLOING IS EASIER SO YOU GET WEAKER GEAR"
    "....nobody is asking for raid gear, just better and more challenging solo content"
    "YOU CANT MAKE SOLO CONTENT HARD BECAUSE FORTY MAN DEBUFF HARD STUFF"
    "okay...what if you took the timing and buff raid mechanics and applied them to solo content"

    "RAID GEAR IS FOR RAIDERS WE NEED IT BECAUSE WE WORK HARDER ITS NOT FOR CASUALS"
    "Okay nobody is asking for raid gear"
    "THIS THREAD IS FULL OF CASUALS BEGGING FOR RAID GEAR TO BE HANDED TO THEM"
    "okay are we even reading the same thread"
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