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[Massively] Nexus Telgraph: Raiding in Wildstar...

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by whocares8310, Jun 11, 2013.

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  1. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    Vyver, you are being really ignorant and insulting quite a lot of people here.
    Vanor says here that he would like 3rd BiS gear.
    ...
    Third BiS gear is still
    So I would like to ask you:
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  2. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah no, all the facetious remarks in the world don't change facts.
    There has been what 3 or 4 threads 20+ in the past two weeks with casuals begging for solo gear to be as good as or better then raid gear.
    The post you quote says 3rd BiS, is third BiS not raid level?

    'But but muh snark makes me right!'
    Your casual is showing my good man.
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  3. Anstalt

    Anstalt Cupcake-About-Town

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    Believe me, my guild caters to all types so I know that not everyone is highly skilled!

    Lets try and analyse what you are saying:


    Where does the difficulty come in?

    Is it the fact that other people make mistakes and then you, as a player, have to adapt to overcome the shortcomings of someone else? If this is the case, then this is a gameplay issue and can be translated to solo play. This is essentially a random event that means you have to perform better than before. This can definitely be programmed in to solo play.

    If it is simply that one person in the raid can cause a wipe and waste the other 39 peoples time, then this just becomes a luck / time thing and can also be translated in to solo gameplay. I'm sure Carbine have data from other MMOs as to the average time to learn and down bosses in differing raid sizes and they can just translate that in to time required to complete the solo content.

    Please explain to me, in really, really simple words, how depending upon other people is hard? Surely it is the other people who are having to do the work, not you? The job you have to do is still exactly the same, regardless of whether there is 1, 20, 40 or 1000 people? Surely the only time things actually become difficult for you, personally, is when someone else screws up and you have to adapt to make up for their mistake?

    If that is the case, then I think I've covered above how that can be translated in to solo play.

    I really do want to understand. Talk down to me, be condescending if you need to be. I genuinely want to understand what you think is present in raiding that cannot ever be translated in to solo play. I agree that to date, solo play has also been easier than group play, but we are discussing the future. Give me examples of difficult things that a raider has to do that could not ever be replicated for solo play.

    I am willing to concede the point, but you have to convince me rather than just saying "other people make it harder". Explain how.
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  4. Vanor

    Vanor Cupcake

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    Pretty sure I said quite clearly that I wasn't looking for raid level gear. Just a way to see some sort of progression in gear without having to do raids. I picked 3rd BiS because it's not the best and that means raids still have something to offer.

    If it's not even that good that's fine. But it still needs to be better then what ever you end up with when you hit max level.

    What form that might take isn't really my major concern. I just want something to do once I finish the story line/leveling type quests and get to end game. Something that gives me some sense of progression but doesn't mean I have to join in 40 man raids to do so.

    Not sure why this is such a huge issue to raiders, unless they simply don't want anyone to have anything unless they play the same way they do.
  5. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    The game is designed around the holy trinity

    Raid bosses are designed around the holy trinity; A tank cannot take hits from a boss without a healer or do enough damage to kill it, healers cannot do enough damage to kill anything before they oom, DPS cannot tank anything long enough to kill it or survive raid cleave without heals.

    Solo content would have to be made in such a way that a character could tank/heal and dps at the same time to live long enough to do damage to kill the boss which means the boss would have less relative health and do less relative damage compared to a raid counterpart. But it would also have to be tuned in such a way that all classes could kill the boss and it's unlikely each class will have the same innate survivability (although granted all classes being hybrid helps kind of) or even the same kind of survivability you can't kite wizards and you can't tank and spank the melee breaker.
    Also your whole numbers argument seems to ignore that a raid is a gestalt, greater then the sum of its parts. You have class/path specific buffs and debuffs and different classes have different relative strengths and weaknesses, a raid healing class would be less good at solo healing thus less good as surviving a tightly tuned solo boss for example.

    Can you make challenging solo content? Yes
    Can you make it offer the same level of challenge as a raid and keep it balanced? Maybe anythings possible is it likely you would? not really IMO maybe carbine will surprise me though.

    I think you misinterpreted my post as more combative then it really was which I guess is my fault.
    On the flip-side of what you're saying I don't think anyone is campaigning for only having grind fest dailies as max level solo content having solo content is great I want solo content I would play solo content. The content isn't the issue.
    The issue (on top of the ones I posted about trivialization of content and dev push time stuff) is having top tier solo gear would muck up server gear distribution. Its like if you didn't have specialized PvP stats all the raiders would come in and face roll dedicated PvPers that's not fair and doesn't support the players who choose to primarily do that kind of content. It's the same with raids Someone who spent 3 days wiping on a boss doesn't want to see a dude who ran a solo dungeon walking around in a similar chest.
    It also does the reverse of what solo players are saying about not being forced to raid to get 'good gear', if you make solo gear good(ish) for raiding raiders will be forced to do solo stuff to get that edge and hence they would either be force to do content they don't necessarily want to do to keep pace or face being put at a disadvantage because they only want to raid.
    Don't get me wrong here giving solo players meaningful progression (say the equivalent of 5man heroic gear with more more hybrid stats baked on to make it sub optimal for group content) is fine. Making solo instances rain 40s purple equivalents is bad for the health of the game.
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  6. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    Alright, let me try it this way. I will list all of the things a soloer and raid group have to do for comparison:

    Soloer:
    Find time to play
    Enter instance
    Try to defeat bosses and eventually win

    40 Man:
    Find time to play
    Find 39 players to play with that all have similar schedules and fit into certain roles
    Decide on a Raid leader who is competent enough
    Have all 39 people show up on time
    Enter instance
    Make sure every player stays for the full duration of the instance and does not troll or flame, etc.
    Try to defeat bosses
    Potential to never succeed based on other people's mistakes rather than your own (i.e. You cannot overcome these mistakes, but have to rely on the other player to overcome them himself, or kick him and back to square one)
    Eventually win

    As you can see, there is much much much more preparation and chance of failure. The reason it is hard is because of all the preparation, and then on top of that YOU can't overcome SOMEONE ELSE'S mistakes. You either have to kick them or just trust that they will do better and rely on them. In a solo instance you control all aspects of the group.

    I don't know really how to get more simple than this. Content gets harder with more people simply because you cannot control them.
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  7. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    The more people in the more mechanics can also be added, the reason blizzard doesn't go below 10 for a raid as they can't add certain mechanics properly, with just 10 it's already hit and miss.

    Anyone arguing that solo content is as hard as group content simply is not being realistic.
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  8. Anstalt

    Anstalt Cupcake-About-Town

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    Raid leader's job, average raider doesn't have to do this, therefore not gameplay difficulty....

    Usually the raid leader organises things up front, so again, 39 of those raiders dont have to do this, this is not a gameplay difficulty!

    Again, how is this difficult for the average raider? Somebody else's ability to show up does not, in any way, shape or form affect your own ability to turn up. This is unrelated to difficulty, only related to time required and therefore this can be translated in to solo play.

    Again, this has absolutely no relevance to making content harder, this is only relevant regarding elapsed time to complete content. Time can easily be translated in to solo play.

    Again, where is the gameplay difficulty here? This is all just stuff that makes raiding take longer, it does not make raiding harder! Time =/= difficulty!



    So, lets assume that you are unable to come up with a genuine reason why raiding is "harder", just why it is longer. Could the devs use this to develop solo content?

    For example, let us say that it takes an average 40 man raid 10 hours to kill a boss in a raid. This includes organisation time, learning time, wipes, disconnects, aborted runs due to no shows plus the kill. 10 people get gear per kill so it takes a further 3 kills at 1 hour per kill for all 40 people to have the gear from that boss.

    Would you then agree that it would be acceptable to design solo content that has the same degree of individual skill required but takes an average of 13 hours to complete for the loot? Because that is what we are talking about: equal skill resulting in equivalent rewards.
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  9. Vanor

    Vanor Cupcake

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    That's very possible. I've had this debate many many times and that can color my perceptions based on past discussions. So perhaps it may of been more combative then you intended, but I likely read more into it then was there.

    Understandable. At the very least the look of the equipment should be different. It's not about epene or anything, people rightfully want to be able to show of what they've accomplished. Even stat wise I think raid gear should at least be better then solo gear. But ideally it would be better for raids and not necessarily be better period.

    I'm currently playing The Secret World and they have a set up that sorta works that way. The gear you use for a dungeon is not the same as what you would use if you were out questing, because in a dungeon you want want to gear up for DPS/Tank/Heal but when out questing you have to gear for survivability, because pure tank or DPS simply doesn't work solo.

    I agree, and while I'm sure some people want that... They don't speak for the majority of us.
  10. Anstalt

    Anstalt Cupcake-About-Town

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    Design of solo content is definitely tricky but it could be done. A simple but definitely not the best solution is NPC's to fill out the other roles. So, prior to starting a solo challenge you would have to "build" your NPC helpers in order to meet the challenge. If you were a tank, this would mean bring DPS and healer NPCs. these could be programmed to output similar dps and healing levels as actual players so that the tank still had to genuinely hold aggro (including crit spikes from dpsers) and would still genuinely have to use defensive CDs and stuff.

    However, it CAN be done.

    Mechanics requiring multiple people can also be simulated, you can program in randomness to simulate human errors etc. It can all be done.


    As to gear distribution, I definitely do not fit the typical raider stereotype! The situations you describe are exactly what I want to see from an MMO! I want the best raiders to be able to come to pvp and be able to compete, likewise I want the best pvpers to have gear good enough to go raiding. I want the soloers to be able to jump in to raids if their friends need an extra person. This is because I believe gear segregation is fundamentally wrong and hinders long term growth and stability in an mmo. The prime reason why the MMO community in general really loves gear segregation is because they hate gear gaps in games that are gear heavy. When a top tier raider can beat a top tier pvper in a spar due to gear advantage, something is wrong, and that is why gear segregation was introduced.

    So, why not go back to core MMO principles and have all endgame gear be roughly equal in stats and only differ slightly in specialisation? The emphasis needs to be put back on to skill whilst maintaining the gear progression that we all seem to love so much.

    Allowing gear from one activity to be useful in other activities ensures that there is greater community integration and players can switch from one to the other whenever they want. Those that want to specialise will still be better at their chosen activity and still have gear that is optimised for their job, but they can still actually play with other people from other activities without being blocked by pointless gear gates! Surely you much have been in the situation where you are one or two people short for a raid, you have other guild members online but you cannot take them due to gear issues? I fecking HATE when that happens! In my guild, we have a lot of casual players, some of which are rubbish, some are highly skilled. In LOTRO, which didn't have tiered gear progression, we could take these skilled casual players with us when we were a player short without hindering our progression much. The casuals had a great time and felt appreciated, the hardcore players didn't feel too hindered and so were happy to progress! Compare that to SW:TOR or WoW, that casual player would have much lower gear rating than was required by the raid and thus we couldn't bring them, the raid would be cancelled and everyone would get pissed off. That sucked! Gear segregation causes long term misery and makes people quit.
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  11. Nathrax

    Nathrax New Cupcake

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    Why should raid gear be best *outside* of raiding? Because its always been than way? Because 40 people?

    Of course it should be best in raiding. And raiding itself should be a big focus of endgame. But its not the only activity.

    I'd like to think people with other play styles just want progression and the possibility of gear that puts them in the same ballpark *for their particular play style* as anyone else.

    I think much of the current "Hardcore vs. Casuals" problems comes from gear in one style drastically outclassing gear in another style *within the latter's setting*.

    Soloers don't need raid gear to solo, but why should raiders' gear trivialize solo and small group play?

    I am glad to see Carbine at least exploring this. I hope it works out well for all play styles.
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  12. Myrrdhinn

    Myrrdhinn Well-Known Cupcake

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    Well, if 2 or 3 player don't show up (especially healers or tanks), there will be no raid. One of the hardest thing in raiding is the organization. Sure you could say "then, you'll do it next week or some other time" but when you are doing solo stuff, you can do it all the time, when you are raiding, you have to pick a date when everybody is available. That's not easy.

    Let's say it does (but it doesn't, it take much more time). Even if you kill all of the bosses, there is no guarantee you'll get the stuff what you want/useful to you. It's RNG. It's random. Of course it could be useful to someone else if he only specializes in one thing, but many raiders (or not raider) wants to tank and dps or tank or heal (Hopefully not the same time). That means you have to collect more gear. Oh and on top of that. This is just one peace. There is many many more.

    (FYI I'll probably not going to raid in WS).

    Raiding takes more effort than solo play there is no doubt about it so they deserve a better reward in my opinion.
    The fact that they even planing something together, figuring out mechanics bosses, participating in group stuff, responding to the others situation (e.g healer bashing the key to heal up the almost dead tank) that takes a lot of effort and courage. You can't put the same pressure on a solo player.

    Solo players deserve rewards too, but raiders should have the best.

    (This is my opinion, I don't want to change your mind.)
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  13. kuunkulta

    kuunkulta Cupcake-About-Town

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    By my experience in raiding and raid&guild leading I can say that the hardest part of raiding is finding the other people and getting them to show up when agreed to. Not to mention getting them to study tactics, bring their own consumables and anything beyond that! In one word, Lightwell.

    Solo and small team content can be just as hard or even harder than raid content. In raids, devs have to limit bosses to be slightly more forgiving and their tactics are more consistent to compensate for the amount of ppl; Can't expect 20-40ppl to keep perfectly synced with randomly changing hazards right? Solo and small group content allows for more random tactics (ie. boss cast sequences changing between tries) and shorter cast times. Solo content especially, as with just one person whacking the boss(es) the player doesn't have to concern himself with what the others are doing, whether they're about to pull aggro or if the healer is cc'd or oom etc. Solo player gets much less extra clutter on screen (other ppl running around and their spell effects) and have easier time concentrating on their own character and the boss and the telegraphs of both of them. In raids you often get to play the blame game but when you play solo, you only have yourself to blame for mistakes.

    I kinda lost my thought and forgot the point but in my opinion an mmo can, and probably should, have the content that challenges the solo player to use the full extent of their skills and abilities. Properly done, such content should be so tough that you absolutely need every single stat point you can scrape up, and the rewards should reflect that as well. Gear wise such solo content should reward gear equal to raid loot. That way, soloers nor raiders feel obliged to do the other content that they don't really like doing in order to get an edge in doing the activity they do like doing.
    The gear rewarded needs to ofc have different visuals and stat wise reflect that it's from solo content, for example by providing a dps class with more survivability stats than raw damage stats. If that's not enough to keep people from whining about the other content being too easy and handing out free epix, then I just don't know what will. A sensible person would try both activities and see how they are both challenging but in just different ways.


    Err so that's my 2 cents about solo content, solo dungeons actually I suppose... Oh I'm so gonna get flamed for my loot comments...
    TLDR - No epix for solo quests, but epix for ├╝ber hard solo dungeons. mkay?
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  14. Myrrdhinn

    Myrrdhinn Well-Known Cupcake

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    I hope not. That's your opinion, and everybody should respect that. These threads exists to give feedback to the devs and to have a fun, civil conversations with another persons. :)

    It's absolutely unnecessary to force a viewpoint in to the others.
  15. Calahan

    Calahan Cupcake-About-Town

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    A single player vs raider thread again...

    1. It's a MMORPG. One M stands for massivly, the other for multiplayer. Multiplayer means playing together, not playing in the same sandbox with your own shovel and bucket and massivly means massivly. Every player should driven in the massivly multiplayer content. You don't like multiplayer, you are welcome, but you are not the main audience of the game.

    You think, you are the majority, maybe, but you are not the main audience. It's not about to get the most players, it's about to get a rich playerbase you can hold over a long time and its much easier to cater one playerbase as every playerbase. If you want to get the most players, its more easy to create different games for different playerbases and not one game who pleased everybody.

    2. There are already many single player RPGs out there. Designed for single player without lags, with special boss fight events designed for single player experiences, with a combat system for single player, classes balanced for single player. And we don't flood the fan sites of this games and ask for raids, btw. If you are seeking for challenging single player content, why not trying out this games?

    3. Classes in MMOs are balanced to complete each other and not to be equal. In a good balanced MMO every class has his own unique great powers AND weaknesses. This means for solo content, it cannot be really challenging. Solo content must to be do-able for every class regarding the unique powers and weaknesses or you design every solo eldar game content as unique class content.

    4. Balancing item progress between multiplayer content and solo content isn't based on grades of difficulties and organisation alone. It's based on timesink too. You can progress faster through solo content as through group and raid content. You get more items by solo content but there are not the most powerfull. For the few powerfull you don't have to master some hard content, you have to grind some repeatable and mostly boring content over weeks to compensate the timesink effect of group and raidcontent.

    5. Why is solo content in MMOs? In the first MMOs solo content was a) grinding mobs and b) crafting. To make this more interessting, we got quests for leveling phase and some grindy endcontet, so we can do something untill friends comes online and the MMO can begin. Solo content was never invented for real solo players. If you like it, you are welcome. But even in this days its the most cheesy game content in computer game history. Its grinding mobs or doing daily quests every healer spec'd player can do. There is no challenge and was never a challenge except very few class specific quests in some MMOs.

    6. Why is high tier item progress in raids only so important? It's simple math. Your raid enters the next tier with gear mostly from last tier. First bosses from the new tier are balanced for the last tier gear. But not all bosses. You have to get gear to progress in the new tier and kill the final boss. If the raid is good balanced, it isn't possible to beat all bosses with last tier gear. If any raid can be cleared in the first week without farming new gear, it's to easy balanced and raid content sucks. There is no compedition.

    Now you can ask "why the hell do you want bosses you can't beat without weeks of farming?". Simple answer: "If they don't affort any new gear, there are no real challenge because everyone can kill them if he can master the mechanics. If they aren't beatable without new gear, and my raid can kill them as one of the first raids, we have proven, we don't need as much gear as other raids to master the mechanics".
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  16. Vanor

    Vanor Cupcake

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    Pretty sure every MMO out there proves that statement wrong.

    It's been shown time and time again that the more a game forces people to play in a group, the fewer people will take part in that content.

    Give people the option of group based content and you'll see lots of people doing it. But when you take the option away you lose players. That's why every MMO out there offers a fairly extensive amount of solo content, because it's been shown that the vast majority of players want to play how they want, when they want.

    This whole MMO = Grouping is a concept that went the way of the dodo bird years ago. No AAA MMO produced in the last 8 years has required people to group up. It might entice people to do so with rewards, better xp, ect... but that is not the same thing as forcing people to group up.

    So your statement is clearly false. The main audience of this and every other MMO, is the typical player. The one that will group up when they want, and play solo when they want, but they will do so on their terms alone. No MMO actually caters extensively to group only players, because quite frankly there's too few of them and too many MMO's out there for that group to keep a MMO running these days.
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  17. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    I will give my opinion in this matter, with exaggerated examples, please keep this in mind.

    Now let's say in PvE content there would be four different tiers of gear, still with me right? Good, well now comes the outrageous suggestion, after you have read it please take few long breaths, make your self cup of tea and come back after your rage has cooled down.

    Every tier would have equal amount of itemisation points available for them. Every tier of gear would have unique and awesome graphics and you could clearly without doubt distinquish where does this gear come from.

    Tier 1 = Solo content gear
    Tier 2 = 5-man gear
    Tier 3 = 20-man gear
    Tier 4 = 40 man gear.

    Now lets look at item, lets pick up a item for chest slot. All of the chests for every different tier would have 1200 itemisation points in their use to be allocated differently

    Tier 1 = 200 stamina, 200 strength, 200 critical strike rating, +5% sprint speed, +5% roll distance.
    Tier 2 = 225 stamina, 225 strength, 225 critical strike rating, +5% Crowdcontroll duration, -5% CC cooldown.
    Tier 3 = 275 stamina, 275 strength, 275 critical strike rating, +2,5% crowdcontroll duration, -2,5% CC cooldown.
    Tier 4 = 300 stamina, 300 strength, 300 critical strike rating, 300 haste.

    Now keep in mind these examples are not mathematical, and are mainly pulled straight out of my arse, they are there just to give general idea of what I mean.

    Now lets look at T1 gear. T1 gear would be perfect for solo content, solo runs, timed runs and what not as you need awesome amount of speed to beat records, awesome movement to avoid guards and escape without initiating combat. T1 gear would still be usable in the T2 content, but it would not be optimal as you would lack the crowdcontroll required, but you would have little movement to keep your self alive even with your low health pool.

    Now lets look at T2 gear. It would be perfect for 5-man dungeons. You only have one tank, so having adds or trash loose can be disasterous. You have to have CC that lasts and is available. T2 gear would be usable in the T3 content, but you would not have the stats to push the raw DPS, you would die little easier and healers would need to keep little closer eye on you. As you can not really top the damage or healing anyways, but you do have awesome amount of +CC duration and -CC cooldown, you could be put to CC duty on trash and during the fights. You would get quite alot of responsibility on you, but you would have slightly easier time doing it than person in T3. This would teach you alot about raiding as you wouldnt just be mindlessly bashing your buttons to do DPS.

    Now lets look at T3 gear. It would be perfect for the content you are doing, as you are still relativelly small group of people and not that much of CC options are available. It would have slightly less CC than the T2 gear, but it would have vastly higher raw stats to give you higher DPS, higher survivability while maintaining decently high CC. He could advance to T4 content but he wouldnt top the meters there, when needed he could give little more CC than others in this group.

    Now lets look at T4 gear. As the raid group size is so big, there will always be enough of CC available so you have no need for stats that increase CC duration or decrease their cooldowns. Yet again your gear would be perfect for you.

    Now lets look the whole situation backwards=

    Person in T4 gear would be able to do T1 content and just brute force him self trough. He would be slower than the person with T1 gear, but he would make it. He could join T2 group, have very little CC to offer, but maybe he could finish one mob off so fast that there is no requirement for his CC. He could go to T3 content and have good success there, but he would be assigned as a raw DPS as his gear would be perfect for that.

    Person in T3 gear could do T2 content rather well, maybe not being as good in CC as T2 players, but giving slightly higher healing or damage.

    Person in T2 gear could go to T1 content and instead of running and avoiding his way trough, he could CC the targets he requires for long time, and that way avoid them. CCing targets would take longer time than just a nifty sprinting double jump combo in to a long roll.

    This would give clear gear progression from T1=>T4 if you want to become a raider, but also the T4 people couldnt come and completelly dominate the T2 and T1 players.


    Now please don't start raging yet. Remember these are just very very crude examples. You can use your imagenation and come up with even better itemisation budgets and ways to make gear interesting.


    Now lets start thinking how you could make all this content equally hard for indvidual player. Now many of you argue that Group Difficulty = Solo Difficulty. But that absolutelly is not true. Stop playing MMO game for some time, and go play shooter game for a while. Your individual skills have everything to do with your success. Some of you said that you would need to balance solo mechanics so unrealistically hard that it wouldnt be fair to the players in the solo content. You have to remember balance is not a matter of ON and OFF. There is more modes than that, you can touch the button ever so slightly to increase the damage some ability does by 0.25% if you see that it is too easy, or perhaps too hard in solo content.

    Solo difficulty in raiding comes from TIME, SPACE, NUMBERS. All of this can be adjusted to meet the difficulty level for solo player if wanted. Group difficulty comes from logistic. Logistics are big part of raiding and incredibly time consuming, but they are not hard for individual player. If raid leader tells you to be online 20:00 infront of the raid instance, all you need to do is do so. If someone doesn't show up, it is the raid leader's and Guild Masters issue to deal with it with according punishment or recruiting more players. You as individual player should not care about it, as all you will cause is drama with your QQ.

    Like I said everything comes from balancing

    You can play any solo game and most of them offer difficultys starting from Beginner to Expert. Because of the increased space you have in solo content, the increased time, and the increased numbers, you can put setting on "Expert" as you do not need to bother about anyone else's failures. If you would put the setting on "expert" in T4, well you end up with fights such as Heroic Lich King, Heroic Anub Arak, Heroic Ragnaros. There is nothing wrong with this kind of fights, they are awesome in a fact but only few guilds will kill them in progress wich is completelly fine.
    What I am saying is that it is completelly fine to design solo content as hard as Heroic Ragnaros. If person wants to do something challenging, he should be allowed to do so. If person wants something easier to do, he should given the possibility.

    Why should it hinder anyones gameplay if someone gets to do the thing they like? Hell I am sure people are surfing in Hawaii at the moment, but I don't lose my sleep over it.


    Edit: Typos and brainfarts.
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  18. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    It's interesting and a bit surprising to see many of the responses in these threads coming from the perspective of recent raiding encounters that have tuning such that a pug can succeed against it.

    I started to see this also in recent beta testing, where players thought it was acceptable tuning that they killed a raid boss in 1 night of tests. This is a very skewed sense of difficulty imo.
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  19. Vhael

    Vhael Cupcake

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    While I agree that raiding should hold its own benefits that set hardcore raiders apart from others, I also have to agree that all forms of content should offer these benefits. Raiders should be rewarded in ways befitting raiding, but their rewards should not trivialize equal investment on the part of players that have differing play styles or that prefer to focus on other forms of content. To a degree I also agree that raiding requires more 'effort', but I have never found that this 'effort' came from 'difficulty'. I've always found that the most challenging part of a 40 man raid is already finished once 40 properly geared people have entered the instance.

    I personally feel that the concept of challenging content has been skewed by the fact that an increasingly large amount of people feel that time consuming = challenging. I have always found raids to be more time consuming than challenging, at least when compared to what challenging solo or smaller team content can offer. Raiding merely creates an illusion of artificial difficulty by playing with probability of larger numbers and human error. Having a raid wipe from a single mistake made by 1 of 40 people does not increase the level of challenge that the individual players face; it merely increases the average time required for completion by increasing the probability of failure for the group as a whole. If this is the only way that developers can create a 'challenge' in MMORPGs then I feel the genre is never going to be able to go anywhere beyond where it currently is.

    Another reason I find that solo and smaller team content is seemingly so much easier than raid content is because it is generally created for the purposes of being either less time consuming or being intentionally simpler for casual gamers to complete. Something I see supporters of non-raid content in favor of in this thread, which many raid supporters do not seem to be catching, is not so much equal rewards for less effort as much as equally challenging content that has equally compelling rewards. I agree with this concept in that I desire challenging content that keeps me fully focused at the edge of my seat more than I desire content that increases my probability of failure as I rely on the performance of 39 other people while praying that none of them set us back an hour by slipping up and hitting a wrong key. I also support being able to sign on at any time and being able to jump into some of the game's most challenging content without having to rely on 39 other qualified players to be signed on and ready.

    There is not a single mechanic I have seen implemented in raid content that cannot be implemented in single player or smaller group content outside of increasing damage numbers and/or HP totals to values that cannot possibly be handled by less people. Enrage timers, environmental hazards, add spawns, etc. can all be implemented into single player or smaller group encounters. While it may have been more difficult to create challenging content in the earlier days of point-and-click tab-targeting combat, in the current MMO capacity of tighter real-time action combat it seems either laziness or lack of creativity is all that can be blamed for a developer's inability to create content that is challenging for a single player or smaller group of players.
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  20. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    What I'm trying to explain is that I was doing well when raiding. It is true I more often than not was playing with the guild which couldn't clear everything other guilds could but myself I didn't see any difficulty in raiding beside random screw up by single individuals which caused wipes. This is the reason why riding was annoying and not difficult to me and its difficulty would not change in better guild, we would just be able to clear whole content.

    In W* you can do double jumps and many parts of the game let you play it like a platform game. Now imagine your raid gm8s each play Mario on their Gameboys. If you ask them all to clear one small level there they would probably all do it on their first try. Then imagine asking them to clear 4 levels and you will see one or two failing. If failure of one of your friends would cause game over for all of your 40 friends this would be considered massive wipe. For raid to not be impossible, devs need to balance it in a way that after let say 50-100 tries 40 ppl in the raid can finally clear it (mario example: all your friends finish 4 levels in the same playthrough simultaneously). If your friends were to be expected to finish whole mario game in one playthrough together simultaneously they would most likely fail thousands time before they done it, most likely they would gave up before then. BUT, if you yourself had to finish just 4 mario levels you would do it first try, and whole mario would probably take you not thousands times but 50-100 which would be much more difficult for you as a single player but not more time consuming than 40ppl finishing 4 levels together same time without even one of them failing. To make it fair from loot point of view single player end level content full clear would have to take much longer than clearing raid content as you don't have to share the loot between 40 ppl. So going back to W* example. If Carbine wanted they could make platform game with their nice jump mechanics, add more enemies who attack you with tough mechanics and add some tasks which are easy to do in a group but are difficult for a single player and most of all make a road to get similar gear as raid gear much longer and if you die while on the road you must start from scratch unless like in raids you hit some checkpoint/savepoint.
    If you don't get my mario example I don't know if I can make it any more simple for you.

    You are close minded. To much raiding to little thinking about other things.
    It's not harder, it's more repetitive, repetitive, repetitive... until everybody manage to do their little tasks well together in the same playthrough.


    I see it like this:
    Example of max level gear Example of raid gear (tank) Example of end game solo gear
    Stamina Health Strength Stamina Health Strength Stamina Health Strength
    5 5 5 7 13 7 9 9 9
    So both end game solo and raid gear is as good but more in line in specific content needs. Also like I've said before because we keep all the gear for ourselves (or a very few ppl we play with) clearing the solo content should take much longer so we don't get all the end solo gear to fast.
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