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Number of abilities...

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Tom Collins, May 25, 2013.

  1. Tom Collins

    Tom Collins New Cupcake

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    Yeah that's a good point. It was mainly the weapon skills I didn't like. Some of the ones you could swap in and out were OK.
    It might not be so bad, I imagine they will be split between the two roles that each class plays. So maybe around 15 for each or something? I dunno, it might turn out OK. I am actually going to Rezzed next week, so I will be able to try it out.
  2. expendability

    expendability Cupcake

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    Hey I share a lot of the concerns that other do regarding the game (Mostly because information is limited and videos only show older builds) but I have faith that this kinda of stuff will be figured out... we can only wait and see.. (and hopefully get a beta invite )*Chuckle*
  3. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    I suppose I shall grace this discussion with my thoughts :p First off let me say that I have played a good few MMO's, WoW and GW2 included.

    In WoW I was a Human Paladin, and boy did I have a lot of skills. I had every single paladin ability on my bars except for Seal of Insight, which means I had 37 Paladin skills on my bars total (In Retribution Spec). On top of those, I was an Engineer, so I had my Parachute, Rocket Boots, Glove enchant, and explosive grenade all on my bars. In addition I also had a slot for a "use" trinket, a ground and flying mount, my mini pet, food, drink, a strength potion, flasks, and a few other things I can't even remember! Overall I had 60 skills over my 5 action bars (The max you can have) and I often wished I had a few more spaces. I even had some skills in prot spec particularly that I couldn't fit, and so I had to make macros for them!

    Now for the real shocker: I clicked all of my skills, and I did it well. I used some macros, but I never once used a keybind. For me this gave combat the illusion of being more than it was, instead of just smacking my keyboard it was a desperate race against my GCD while trying to maintain positioning and everything else. Now, in before "You clicked? Then you're a bad example, you must have sucked!", I was the top geared alliance paladin on my server for most of Cata (The only expansion I played from start to finish in).

    Then WoW destroyed itself and decided to spit on all the things I enjoyed about it, so I went off to GW2. I won't talk about everything else in GW2 since this topic is for abilities (But rest assured I have little love for the game). GW2's idea was to give you skills based on your weapon and limited action utility skills that you would need to swap out based on the situation. This is a really sweet idea imo if it weren't for the entire game being imbalanced and etc. You get your main 5 weapon skills and then a good chunk of skills for utility, defense, dps boost or etc. It toned down on the need to be focusing almost completely on your skills and instead focus on new awesome combat and mechanics. GW2 didn't fulfill it's promises here, but I still think the idea was really neat.

    AS you can plainly see, I've been on both sides of the fence and enjoyed both ways of approaching skills (The games behind them notwithstanding). I honestly prefer some parts of both systems, and that is exactly what Wildstar appears to be giving us.

    From WoW I enjoyed:
    Profession skills (I missed my rocket boots, I viewd them as another design aspect of my character)
    No difference between weapons (The weapon skills were cool, but added a whole new level of imbalance)
    The "permanant" feeling of your skills

    From GW2 I enjoyed:
    Less skills (Allows for a focus on dynamic combat, gameplay, and mechanics)
    Only able to bring so many skills into a fight (Really ups the difficulty and skill involved)

    For me, Wildstar is this beautiful WoW-GW2 smoothie that has tons of extra delicious ingredients also thrown in; the skill bar is no different. From what I've seen you only get to bring in a handful of skills, some of which are "permanant" for your role and others are situational. You get path abilities which bring back that awesome feeling behind profession skills in WoW. Most importantly you only have so many skills and only one weapon, so there is a huge focus on combat and mechanics as well as awesome animations and design. I feel like Wildstar is going above and beyond my expectations for an MMO, and it's great. Smaller action bars are awesome, if they can avoid GW2's issues and create a balanced and challenging game.

    For the people who are worried about/hating on less skills, I feel where you are coming from. I played WoW with all those skills and it really did feel epic. But you have to understand that the less skills you have, the more a game can be focused on mechanics, combat, on-the-fly thinking/reactions, and all those other awesome things that make games really stimulating, challenging, and fun!

    So don't think of it as "I'm losing skills" but rather "The skill comes from me now, not my action bar"!
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  4. Iamaom

    Iamaom New Cupcake

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    Not to venture off topic, but I'm assuming you mean in PvE and not in PvP. No offense, but tankadins were the easiest tank class you could play in WoW (when I played, BC to Wotlk), and in PvE I could see you getting away with clicking. In PvP keybinds are essential as they allow you to perform maneuvers (such as kiting) you can't do when you click, such as a hunter running from an enemy: jump, turn in the air, and use Arcane Shot, and then turn back in one fluid movement. If you click you can't turn the camera/character and press a skill at the same time.

    I've played WoW, GW, and GW2. I prefer the WoW method, it might be harder to learn so many skills each for different situations, but to me each character can handle themselves better. Games like GW2 if you go with the wrong build you're screwed and there's not much you can do, whereas in games like WoW most builds have an "oh <REDACTED>" ability or combinations of abilities to get yourself out of sticky situations. Also when you see an enemy class you are more likely to know what abilities they do and don't have so you can adjust your strategy accordingly, this system lends itself more to the quick mind of the player than to if the player chose rock instead of scissors.
  5. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    BC I wouldn't know about, and Wrath definitely, but in Cata (The majority of the time I played) DK tanks and druids I would say were easier than prot pally. They changed paladins quite a lot going into cata, and things got tougher for prot and ret (Holy got changes too but not sure if it was more difficult, just different). Also I played both ret and prot and while I was a MT my ret set was only a few iLevel less. Though I see what you are saying about PvP, and it's true that I mainly enjoyed PvE. However, it is not true that keybinds were essential. I remember several occasions of defeating skilled and fully pvp geared DK's, rogues, and mages in duels (In nothing but my standard PvE gear). The fights were often long and difficult, but the only one I lost a duel against was the DK (We did 2/3 and he won 1 match, I won 2). I was rather good at juking and kiting and all that if I do say so myself, even while clicking.

    I see what you are saying about the skills, but it can work the opposite way as well. Is it okay that you can always win against another player if you plan thoroughly? Is it okay that there is no element of surprise? Where is the fun in knowing exactly what the enemy will throw at you? It's questions like these that change the game from rock/paper/scissors to poker. You don't know what's in your opponents hand, but you have to try your best to make your hand better or you will lose. The enemy isn't going to instantly beat you just because his hand (skill set) is better, but if you don't adjust to his hand and try to get the better of him that's when you are going to lose.

    While knowing the enemies entire skillset may bring some tactical dynamics to PvP, not knowing his skill set means you have to be on your toes and thinking on the fly, prepared for anything they can dish out. I prefer this type of combat, if I wanted to study my opponent and predict his every move I would go play chess instead.
  6. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Duel's are completelly different game than arena. In duels with some classes you can stand still and tank damage and throw in some damage when you can.

    I was still a filthy clicker in Karazhan but after we once wiped on a trash cause I couldn't click a spell fast enough I decided to go for keybinds and never looked back. The fact is, every second you have to follow your mouse pointer with your eyes is a second not spent on looking your surroundings, adjusting your camera in to perfect position, second not used to controll your character to perfection. You can have decent success with clicking sure, but if a good player who clicks would change in to keybinds, he would have the potential to become excelent. No one can have muscle memory to hover their mouse pointer to the right spot on the UI without looking, but when you have the muscle memory for keybind you never really need to look your action bars.

    This is what I love in PvP. I am on my DK against a Mage, I know the mage has blink ready and his kiting me. Now I can try to get on him without Death Grip, throw in death coils and try to lock out his casts with my pet and what not. What I love to do is fake a bad Death Grip. Throw in a Death Grip, Dark Simulracum, Deathgrip. The mage notices I Death Gripped twice before his blink was on cooldown, laughs how big noob I am an blinks away and throws pet freeze on me. I proceed to blink out of his frost nova with copied blink just next to him and continue damaging him and he now has blink on cooldown. I know I have given that example few times, but that's one of the "skill" moves I love to do on DK, things warrior really no longer has.
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  7. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    I understand that duels are different, the point wasn't to say I was good or experienced at PvP. The point was to say that when pitted against players using keybinds who had great gear and skills, I still managed to come out on top. These people were astonished that I was a clicker, and one even called me a troll lol. Also I never once was able to stand still in a duel, and I dueled in Ret not Prot.

    Again, the point is not that keybinds are better, in fact my skill with clicking is hardly on topic as the only reason I mentioned that I clicked was to illustrate just how much stress went into my combat. Regardless, I would like to say that even as a MT (The person who is mainly watching things around him as dps and healers are focused on other things) and raid leader (I was also the guy calling out shots and tactics, etc) I never once had a problem with clicking. It was difficult, but exciting. as I said that race against my GCD was awesome and really enhanced the combat. If you couldn't pay attention to your surroundings and click at the same time then I never would have been MT/RL and I would have switched to keybinds. The reason combat was more exciting was because I had to watch so many things at once, and that made up for WoW's rather lackluster combat system. I was more comfortable clicking than using keybinds, and never once in my groups did we wipe because I couldn't click/notice something fast enough.
    I enjoy things kind of like this as well. Often in duel or standard PvP I would use repentance on a person, and that person would immediate use a CC breaking CD, at which point I would use HoJ to stun them. Repentance CC's a player for 5 seconds, but if they take damage it removes it, so it is fairly useless in pvp. But I used it to juke people into wasting a CD so I could stun them and go to town.

    See, I knew mostly jack squat about other classes in WoW, and it's thew same in most games. I don't learn other classes and devote myself to trying to counter them. What I do is learn my class inside and out, and know all the ways I can counter something on the fly. This is what I like about Wildstar and why I don't think people should hate the LAS. As long as you know your class inside and out, you can beat most anyone you want given enough effort. Sure, some people might flat out counter you, but that sort of a random surprise is fun to me. I wouldn't want to just be able to beat anyone in the world simply because I read about their class.

    People are always telling me that PvP is so much harder than PvE because they are real people and you can't just use tactics. So why do the people who have responded to me here only want to use tactics? Isn't there supposed to be that random human element? Isn't that what makes PvP fun for you guys? If you are just predicting an enemy's moves, how is that any different than countering a boss's mechanics?

    I feel like LAS brings in that random element, and I feel like that should be what makes PvP fun. And on top over the random thing, it also puts a much larger focus on combat, movement, decisions, etc in both pvp and pve. I 100% completely approve the LAS, as long as they know what they are doing and can make it work properly.
  8. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    I was main assist in TBC, and main tank in whole TBC. I was MT+RA+RL start of WotLK untill somewhere in Ulduar, where I noticed that tanking became so freaking boring after TBC, I had to seek for my challenges elsewhere (PvP and later DPS in ToGC and ICC). Anyways, what I wanted to say that I personally saw huge increase in the amount of time I could use just looking around with my camera, looking the fight, looking what my enemies are doing when I quited clicking back in Karazhan. I might had been ok with clicking too, but with keybinds I was many times world rank 1-5 fury warrior in WotLK and few times in Cata. I played cata start quite HC, firelands I unfortunatelly skipped, came back for DS.



    I always loved those awesome retris who would use HoJ straight out of charge stun. Charge, switch shield, spell reflect, HoJ, pally sits in his own HoJ and possibly has to trinket it or bubble already :)
    Tho only terribads do that.

    I used to know everything about every class back in WotLK, but I had so long break from PvP I still have catching up to do. When I started PvP, I did some 1200 games in quite little time. Took me those 1200 games to actually feel I know anything about PvP. Funny to see people in arena who do 4 games and quit cause "omg that class is op".

    I don't know how many different ways there is to play a chess game, but one could say there is tactics and moves you can learn to every different kind of a scenario. In WoW Raid Bosses have only 1 way they execute their abilities and maybe 1-3 different tactics how to do the fight. PvP is more like chess, as there is more variables. After you play alot you can start to predict what enemy does, but what makes it fun is when the enemy breaks the rule and acts completelly different than expected.
    Boss will always do what you expect him to do, especially after crushing blows were removed, in PvP even if you predict what enemy does, you might had predicted wrong.


    I generally am very optimistic of the arena for Wildstar, I love how every healer has the rolls and sprint in their toolset. I have one very good priest friend, easily gladiator material if he didn't want to only play with his friends. He quited the game just little time ago, just cause he finally after 7 years got tired of his class having the worst chances to kite in the game.

    Anyways, I apologise the community. I think we have derailed this thread way too much. I am sorry, shall quit it here.

    Ps. Don't take any of what I wrote as a insult, as it really wasnt meant as such. More so a old WoW player having some nostalgy. :p
  9. firebyte

    firebyte New Cupcake

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    @14:50-15:10
  10. Rizzalliss

    Rizzalliss Cupcake

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    My only concern with a limited number of skill at a given time is how stagnant it makes combat after awhile. That being said, it's not so much the limited number of skills as it is how little complexity is involved in the combat. IMO, even WoW, with its large number of skills per class would have had very boring gameplay if not for the various complexities each class had. Various procs that you had to watch for, timers on DoTs/Debuffs, alternate resources, etc. I believe that even having as little as 5 constantly used skills can be engaging and fun all the way to the end and then some so long as those 5 abilities are more than just click off cooldown and involve other mechanics.

    To me, the thing that makes combat in these types of games engaging and interesting is having to monitor several things at once, from timers, cooldowns, procs, positioning, and the like. I am really hoping for such systems in the classes.
  11. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think an easy way to get that in Wildstar would be to tie procs and secondary dynamic management more to individual skills rather then perks (the talent tree equivalent).
  12. Rizzalliss

    Rizzalliss Cupcake

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    Absolutely. Doing so will allow even a single skill difference to alter style of play, as opposed to the cookie-cutter talent builds from most games.
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  13. CaptainYoul

    CaptainYoul Cupcake-About-Town

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    To me 10 class abilities sounds perfect +1 innate and + 1-2 for the path
    Plus load of usefull abilities such a homestone,profession abilities, etc.

    At least you can chose them, not like in GW2 where its bound the to weapon and 1-2 of the 5 abilities feel useless due to poor occasion to use them (see greatsword warrior).

    I just hope i wont end up always changing my abilities for leveling/pvp/dungeons/off-spec because the restricted number is too low
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  14. Rizzalliss

    Rizzalliss Cupcake

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    This is actually the biggest reason that I enjoy the basic idea of a limited number of skills. And let me tell you, upon looking closer at how hectic and occupying some of the major combat can be, I am not so worried about
    being kept engaged anymore.
  15. Genoshock

    Genoshock Cupcake-About-Town

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    as i see it you are free to choose and change your abilities on the fly. (probably out of combat). just like in gw2 but i dont think you are set into the 5 attack 1 heal 3 utility 1 ulti sets ...

    however i would think that there are some ability sets that would not be allowed ... maybe a set that doesnt sync with itself?
  16. Luc

    Luc Cupcake-About-Town

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    i hope they change/improve this system. 10 abilities seems not the way to go.:coffee:
  17. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    There's two additional ability bars below the main LAS for other types of abilities. I believe this encompasses path abilities and maybe some others? But in the build I played there's limited slots for class abilities and milestones.

    This is all 4 months behind whatever the current beta build is like though.
  18. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I think the bars below is for things like mounts and profession skills and whatnot. If you look at the demos with devs they're always the bar for macros. I think the top bar is your LAS, though it's really hard to say without knowing if the demo version is the current beta build or not, as well as if that bar is legitimate or not.
  19. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    Yes but Path abilities will also be allowed on that bar, or at least in it's current implementation they are :)
  20. CaptainYoul

    CaptainYoul Cupcake-About-Town

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    If you guys have seen the E3 gameplay, you will realize that its impossible for anyone to play with 30 spells, jump, roll, dash at the same time, this is a fast action game.
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