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Number of abilities...

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by Tom Collins, May 25, 2013.

  1. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    Can be played multiple ways, you're still only looking at 12/13 abilities with any path actives and maybe some mission abilities. If you don't always have to move in WS.
  2. Luc

    Luc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sorry but, you are wrong, there are tons of good players, that can play and strategy with multiple abilities, its called APM. i've a decent good apm and i'm sure i would manage that. ( tera has lots of mobility and jump and dodge and 30 skills+ action bar)
    About the 2 extra skillbars, i haven't seem yet, but looks like its just for comesmetics like weapons,potions,mounts etc... and the other one to Path abilities wich i belive it does not affect PvP.


    Just to add this: I don't think they are using LAS because its simple and easier. I think they are trying to make something different and fun with a lot of build and skill sets.
    what i'm trying to say is... I don't think they are worry with APM, but, if they are worried about it, they should not underestimate players! haha
  3. CaptainYoul

    CaptainYoul Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree with you

    but what if, they decided to implent LAS to make sure everyone can get to a "high level" of skills instead of just half their playerbase? Pro players can still achieve "Godlike level" but at least the majority wont be mad at the UI.

    I'll make a quick League of Legends comparaison, everyone can play Master Yi, hes easy to learn, but only a few can master him (master Master Yi lawl).
  4. Luc

    Luc Cupcake-About-Town

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    I got your point! but that's they way a mmo is like, there will be pro players, there will be average players and there will be bad players... and this need to be divided by "Ranks".
    It's Really important to have a good rating system.
  5. wos

    wos New Cupcake

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    i would like to see the system resembel war hammer online that the best one ive play on yet as a shammy we had 3 skill trees heal, dps, lifesphoin/debuffing, the more points u put in a tree the stroger them skill got thay all so got stroger from ur healing or dps stat dps was intel and healing was willpower and u could all so unlock more skills if u wanted them but all the core skill could all be use in ur action bar so ur trad off was if u duel speked u was only harf as good or if u put to much in one stats ur other would suffer worked it verry well
  6. Vulgork

    Vulgork Cupcake

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    I really hope that there'll be at least 12 slots.

    10 Slots in GW2 was way too little for me. 12-14 would be my personal comfort zone.
  7. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't get all the people that post this stuff. How is 10 "Way too little" and 12 is your comfort zone? The difference between "Way too little" and comfort should not be 2 abilities, it's such a negligible amount.

    I also would prefer maybe 12-15, but a lot of people make it sound like the loss of of 2 abilities is going to be a dealbreaker for them lol. I don't understand how some could even be marginally upset over something like that x.x For me it's just "Cool if you do, no big deal if you don't".
  8. Vulgork

    Vulgork Cupcake

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    12 is 20% more slots than 10.

    That is a fifth. It's a big difference ;)

    Especially when you're talking about number of possible combinations.

    Combinations are calculated by n over k, so (n!)/((n-k)!k)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination

    So let's assume we have 30 possible skills to pick from. n=30
    If we have 10 slots, then k=10, so

    (30!)/((30-10)!10) = (1*2*...*30)/((1*2*...*20)*10) = (21*22*...*30)/10 = 10902735043200
    http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(30!)/((30-10)!10)

    Sounds like a lot, but with only 1 skill slot more, we have
    (30!)/((30-11)!11) = 198231546240000
    http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(30!)/((30-11)!11)

    So 11 skill slots is a 10% increase from 10.
    But with 30 assumed skills,
    10 => 10902735043200
    11 => 198231546240000

    That's more than 18 times the amount of combinations. 10% more skill slots brought us over 1700% more combinations.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a lot in terms of diversity.
  9. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    BIG NEWS
    From the beta patch notes:​
    So you guys got 1 more ability to put on your bars, and no more need to put resurrection on it!​
    Isn't that good news for those who wished more abilities? Hope you guys notice the tone of my message :p
  10. Vulgork

    Vulgork Cupcake

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    Any idea how many abilities people are getting to slot into these?
  11. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    Judging by the way he worded it, 8. He's saying that the number of class abilities we can now slot is 8, meaning the total number of LAS skills on our bar has been bumped from 10 to 11, at least.
  12. Vulgork

    Vulgork Cupcake

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    No I meant the total of abilities/spells available that you can pick from. The n in my calculation above.
  13. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh I see now. I don't think there is an official number at all, unless one came out super recently, however there has been talk of 30-40+ total skills in your class.
  14. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So... you have to remember also that there will be path abilities as well as "racials" (the ones you get at max level) and activatable item abilities which you have to choose from. So, you have 30-40 class abilities (total) with 8 (now) of them able to be on your ability bar. In addition you will get (I believe) 1-2 path/item abilities and 1-2 racial abilities. So, the permutations are actually a bit different, because you can have many more combinations based on the path/item abilities you choose (I think they compete for slots) and the "racials" you choose.

    I believe they are multiplicative in this instance, and I took it as a possibility of ~15 path/item possibilities (not unreasonable) with 2 slots, ~20 racial abilities with 2 slots, and 30 class abilities with 8 slots (although I think it's closer to 40 class abilities, being that you have to remember they're being divided between 2 roles, and so in actuality the class pool is roughly half). This means in actuality there's about 3 times the number of combinations you have shown. But this number doesn't really matter as it's arbitrarily large. The actual number needed is the number of viable builds and how much variance there is for sub-builds of it.

    I.E. certain tanks will decide on what gear they need to be optimal and have a build to go along with it, so the build is most constrained by gear, as it takes the least amount of "work" to change. (We'll assume work is quantifiable in this instance, and that the work to change gear is arbitrarily large compared to changing abilities out. This is due to having to get and modify gear to optimize towards a build.) The sub build would be other optimizations to account for game mechanics, such as, mobility, damage smoothing, damage mitigation, aggro management, team composition, and damage dealing (in the case of a tank).

    I would assume each tanking class has something like 2 or 3 builds, being how Carbine seems to design for "choice." This means that each tank class will have 2 extreme ends of viable builds, as well as possibly a balance between them. Such as one which is high mitigation and another which is damage smoothing, and possibly one in between. This would allude to every class having 4-6 potential viable "accepted" base builds (with small variances between them) with something like 24-36 sub builds. Totalling in 132-216 varied ways to play for PVE, because this is the number that actually matters (this is a conservative estimate and I believe it to be a little low, but without knowing more about the classes and the viability of support mechanisms it is hard to accurately predict this number). If you look at the old talent trees in WoW, really there was 1 (possibly 2) viable builds, with everything else being sub-optimal. Non-viable builds should not be considered as they are negligibly existent.

    In PVP this becomes very different, as you start into Meta-game based on team composition. Likely chances are that there will be one "dominant" build for each given class for a given team composition (again we'll assume team composition is the highest work here, and hardest to change) and a counter to that build which we'll refer to as "recessive." The Meta-game of a strategy based PVP game usually has the recessive eventually becoming dominant, the dominant becomes increasingly rare, and a counter to the original counter comes into play at some point, taking the place as the recessive build. This means at most you'll have 3 builds to choose from in PVP at a given time, but that's fine because it's in constant flux based on the lag time of developing and refining new strategies, and reactive change within the community.
    ArdentSun likes this.
  15. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    Another thing is that it's easy to justify something with math, obviously adding or removing a skill is going to increase the number of possibilities. But really, are you going to notice the lack of possibilities is you are so unjustly limited to 10 trillion combinations? It's different when the numbers are lower, and adding/subtracting skills slots has an immediate and noticeable effect. However, at around 10 skills, +/- 1 or 2 isn't going to do much to your actual perspective of the game. You might lose a few trillion possibilities or something, but you are still left with trillions of combinations, probably more than 1 for each person on earth if they were all different.

    I understand that 2 more skill slots is 20%, and I understand that it changes number by a very large degree. However, it is still negligible imo because you will almost never notice the loss of 2 skills or unreasonably large numbers of possibilities. This is why it bugs me when people act like +/- 2 skill slots is going to break the game for them, you aren't going to notice it unless you try to and the numbers are so huge as to be unreasonable and negligible. The average person might use 50 (I personally use maybe 10 because I research a lot rather than do much trial/error) builds over the course of a game, the difference between 10 trillion and 180 trillion isn't as much when you only need 50 of them.

    Also, the less skills you have, the more powerful and unique they can be. And I think WS wants this, for each skill to feel like it is needed and useful. Adding a skill to your bar would require other skills to get nerfed and the overall usefulness/necessity of each skill diminishes. Personally I think this is a much more noticeable loss than the negligible gain of 170 trillion builds you most likely wont even touch.
  16. Apothecary

    Apothecary Cupcake

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    Rumour is that there will be 8 skills from your class on your bar and there will be 50 class skills, so thats 50 to the power of 8 so something high as combinations, also 2 path abilitys are rumored to
  17. Haversham

    Haversham Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think that in all of this talk about how more abilities means more diversity and diversity is good (it is) that this point is often overlooked. LAS is, the way I understand it, supposed to be about letting people specialize in hybrid class design. If people want to be able to put out decent dps and decent heals at the same time or be a warrior with some taunting ability to take pressure off your tanks for a couple seconds or a DPS with high CC capability, you can probably design your toon to be that way. In my opinion, this will decrease class homogenization in that groups won't just have DPS or Healing spellslingers that are all expected to play the same and use all 30 of their abilities available to them. If class abilities are done correctly you could end up with any number of different types/roles for someone playing a spellslinger along the DPS -> Healing spectrum (ie more role diversity within the class, not just two roles).
  18. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    ''Rumours''???
    How are they rumours? Just read above in the CB patch notes they've said 8 abilities, also you got 2 path spell slots (you got 3 path spells to choose from).
    Making a total of 10 spell slots on your bar (this is excluding other spells like: Ress, mounts etc. which can be binded without using a bar slot)

    As of the 50, that is indeed a rumour. I've seen numbers go by varying from 35 to 55. So i guess somewhere around 50 aswell :D
  19. wos

    wos New Cupcake

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    just give us 3 10 slot bars that we can tern on and off position where we want so we can load up all the abiltys problem solved that way if some people want to use all of them its good and if people only want to use a sertion number thern off bars and slot ur 5 to 15 in them problem solved no point having 30 to 40 skills and can only use 10 there will be alot of wasted effet going in to skillds that will never be used gw2 was a prim eg that lack of deepth got boring quickly and all there skill power up wer skin deep like power up all expoltions but not the pitol shot
  20. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    Your suggestion is horrible for balance and it would be stupid to ever use less than the max number of abilities. The point of having 40 skills where you can only use 10 is the diversity of player builds and the added power and ability that each skill carries. With only 10 skills they become vastly more important to gameplay, using something too early or too late could cause you to die in a raid. GW2 got boring quickly because of the game around the skill moreso than the skills themselves. The skills were then completely imbalanced and corrupt, so you only ever had one weapon and one build that you could use. Your weapon was almost entirely irrelevant minus one skill or two, which leaves you with your heal skill and four other skills to customize. There was a best build for every class and that is the reason why they got lame and boring fast. You were locked into one set and everything else was pure <REDACTED>. Wildstar will hopefully avoid this by actually, oh I don't know, balancing their game maybe?
    Kataryna and BlindSear like this.

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