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Payment Model Discussion Mega-Thread

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by MiZTiiX, Jun 25, 2012.

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  1. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    The point of the post you quoted is that I believe all of what I just quoted is opinion with no evidence to base it on. Also, given that there's zero guarantee that a game with those lofty goals that launches as a subscription based game will actually succeed in those goals and may therefore need to change their business model as others in the industry have I am hard pressed to understand why people so fervently demand one and only one model be considered.
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  2. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    It's better to shoot for the stars than sell yourself short, IMO.
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  3. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    Better to fail in an epic fashion than go gently into that good night? :D
  4. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    If it ends that way, sure. But why do you expect WildStar to fail?
  5. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm not expecting anything, that was mostly a joke. What I am hopeful for though is that whichever business model Carbine uses for Wildstar it'll be the best one for the continued operation of the studio; and I'm not crazy enough to assume that means they need to use a subscription based model, especially given the last decade of the industry's history.
  6. Rai

    Rai Cupcake-About-Town

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    Might be an oversight, but I've seen no mention of the different types of b2p/p2p/f2p:

    - Initial boxcost or digital purchase (adds to p2p cost)
    - Included playmonth(s) in initial purchase [p2p only] (which gives players the chance to play the game as f2p, unless they like it beyond the ~1-3 months)
    - Update/expansion-cost & frequenty (Adds a lot of periodical cost to the total of 'p2p')

    This can obviously change a lot on the total cost of playing a game..
    As well as the content of a f2p store, only cosmetics, pets and mounts sounds a lot more fair.

    When I was a kid wanting to play FFXI, without my parents having a CC was bad. Using services as PayPal is key. :up:
  7. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    WoW, EVE and Rift are doing exactly that, though. People are playing them by the millions! If the quality of the game is up for it, the players will pay a sub. It's been proven. There's no track record of content comparable to what WoW, Rift or EVE has done from a f2p or b2p game.

    Also, what Guild Wars 2 has released so far has a) been mostly holiday content and b) likely things they had in the can before shipping the game. Watch a year from now to see what they are doing.
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  8. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    So basically give up and just jump off the cliff with everyone else before you're even pushed? By which I mean, what is the harm in going P2P only first, then, IF things don't work out (i.e. you're pushed), transition to the 'more popular' model. It's been done plenty of times before, to 'resounding success' as B2P/F2P proponents like to point out, and by vastly inferior products (IMO), so WS shouldn't have any problems IF that needs to happen; and yes, it is a big IF.

    Also as has been pointed out, it's not that P2P games are inherently superior, but that they need to maintain a higher standard to be successful, a standard that I'm sure everyone here wants WS to live up to. By going B2P initially you are compromising that standard and there is an immediate shift from 'how can we keep the game enjoyable to subscribers so they keep playing' to 'how do we sell more boxes and get people to buy stuff at the cash shop'; see Defiance for the latest example of the 'glory' of B2P.
  9. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    There are two very large disparities that you get when going F2P initially as well. (Sorry if it's been covered already...55 pages is...a lot)
    With F2P you have a LARGE influx of people either abusing the systems, which increases the need for support staff, which is usually lacking in a F2P game.
    Going P2P at least culls some of these people initially, also there is little to no recourse for a company that is F2P. Ban an account? Who cares, they'll just make another.

    I love the idea of P2P for a game that will deliver on the quality, it not only helps the developers have a consistent income but also keeps a completely level playing field for all the players.

    To the above I'm sure that has to be sarcasm about B2P being great, as Defiance is a 12 hour game with grinding on the side.
  10. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    Three games don't make an industry rule though. The fact that some people will pay monthly to play them isn't proof of anything other than some people will pay monthly to play those games.

    It's not a "big if" at all that Wildstar may not be the game people expect, in which case it would be best for them to have implemented in the beginning whichever business model will grant them the highest amount of success they can attain. No one has any reason to believe this product will be better than any product that's come before it. At least I sure as hell don't.

    Also, the "higher standard" of subscription based games is a fallacy. If it weren't everyone on this forum would probably be playing Rift or World of Warcraft. Using a business model that may actually garner them higher profitability doesn't compromise anything, but what it may do is stave off things like post-launch layoffs. You know what the "higher standard" of Rift meant for its expansion in Korea? Shutting down.

    There are horrible ways to implement business models, and I agree with you that Defiance has launched with an implementation I decided I wouldn't fork over money to. Y'know what'll be funny though? If they're successful.
  11. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    Rift is not a game designed for Korea's market. That really says nothing about the quality of the game, aside from it can't keep up with Korea's ADHD consumer base that is used to shovelware F2P titles and bounce from game to game to game like fleas. Honestly, it says more about what the Korean market is like (and what the consumers over there have decided they want) than the quality of Rift itself.
  12. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Overall regardless of funding, support, and quality.

    P2P vs (F2P/B2P) affects the community as a whole, which affects the longevity of the game for most of the people that do visit sites and forums such as this. F2P/B2P is generally FAR more acidic and volatile on a community level which is usually why I, personally, quit playing games. It might be fun but I don't want to spend any more time dealing with the people around me.

    That seems a little contradictory to the actual Korean market as they usually are FAR from ADHD. The general Korean model involves GRIND after GRIND after GRIND. Most Korean gamers that I have known have quite a bit of focus for the game they've chose to play currently.

    Rift, as a whole, was just a soulless game. It felt very similar to WAR with a larger budget, but you still felt like you were talking to cardboard cutouts every time you interacted with an NPC.

    **edit** Just to clarify...I REALLY wanted both WAR and Rift to succeed so I'm also a little bitter that they turned out the way they did. :(
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  13. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    Do you mean they tend to have more trolls and such? 'Cause every MMO I've played had a huge community like that. I usually seek it out, as it tends to generate a more entertaining PvP environment. :D When TERA launched, as PtP, my server had guilds with hundreds of members from places like 4chan and Something Awful. When Rift launched the goons from S.A. stole my guild's name. I think an MMO's business model has little to do with what kind of community it has; but I do think having an upfront payment wall results in a smaller community at launch, for better or worse.

    Also, I agree with your commentary about the Korean market. Those gamers have immense patience and focus, and are perhaps the least like "fleas" of any market in the world AFAIC.
  14. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yes there's the trolls and griefers and all that. While that does foster a more aggressive community it also fosters a more aggressive community! ;) There's definitely a time and place for those things and, sadly, most don't know when or where.

    I will completely and wholeheartedly agree with you that it does create a smaller population at launch and especially with the gaming market currently that does seem to be a concern. Maybe having limits for F2Pers on communication and things of that nature.
  15. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

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    To each their own. I guess I've just got a bit more faith in WildStar than you do, and would rather see the Devs aim for an experience that is worth a subscription than to compromise that and base 'success' as you put it on first month sales*.

    * I say first month sales because a lot of bad games rely purely on hype to sell, good games sell themselves for years.
    I used to play Rift until it went 'casual friendly' and nerfed all the content, I also used to play WoW until it became easy mode as well. I've also subbed to CoH, Aion and WAR, and played TSW for the free month. But you know what I haven't done, ever, is played a B2P or F2P game for more than a month, even the ones that used to sub based, why? Because they changed, they became more about what the game could sell you than what the game could offer you, and that just isn't something I want a part in.
    I agree, there are good and bad ways to do everything, and it's not always obvious which is which, some games suit B2P/F2P (LoL, PS2, PoE, ...), but WS is not one of those games, it is wholly designed to fit the P2P model and anything less would nothing but a disservice. Now WS may end up going B2P/F2P anyway, and hey sometimes that's just life, but to start there; no.
  16. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    Indeed, but I refuse to put faith into anyone or anything without reason.
  17. MeakGG

    MeakGG Cupcake-About-Town

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    Okay guys, MeakGG here to shut this thread down! Every possible theory/idea/thought/impression/opinion has been annoyingly expressed and reused!

    The game WILL be P2P. It's going to be $15 a month. New content will pour in 7 months after release, and have a steady flow of new, refreshing content every 4 months or so. First expansion at the end of fiscal year 2.

    Your money is your time, and your money is your voice.

    Time
    If working one hour, making $15 an hour, isn't worth unlimited content, distributed equally across the whole playerbase for 720 potential hours at a time, I'm sorry.

    Return pop cans, mow a neighbors yard, cut back on that starbucks or pack of cigs a week (they're killing you man!) I even saw a 17 year old kid on the boards here say he does freelance graphic design and gets paid pennies for it, but he'd rather it be P2P, and he'd find the cash.... in the year 2013. A year where American children are more entitled, undeservingly, than ever before in my ignorant view of American history!

    Voice
    I work for an organic meat distributor, and it changed the way I see food. I grew up on McDs, BK, JinB, CarlsJ, Wendys, TacoBellskies, KFCizzle, RoundTable, Dominos, Jimmy Dean, Oberto.... for 26 years. I never would have thought at year 27 it would matter to ME. I don't judge what anybody eats, but I chose to use my money as my voice with what I buy, and if my views sway against those brands, I have the liberty to not purchase them. Nobody will EVER force you to play Wildstar... unless they're like the coolest criminal in history. If you're against P2P, voice that opinion by not purchasing the game. Maybe the devs will suffer enough and they'll change their business model.... almost started laughing there. Sorry....

    B2P at 7 month $60 expansions totals $240 over 2 years. (17531.6 hours of potential enjoyment)
    P2P with 1 expansion and $15 a month sub totals $465 over 2 years. (17531.6 of potential enjoyment)
    1 Large Bic Mac meal at McDonalds once a week totals $475 over 1 year, over $950 in 2 years. (17.3 hours)
    Dinner and a movie with my girlfriend 4 times totals $520 a year (14 hours), $1040 over 2 years (28 hours), and a couple sex sessions(3 or 4 minutes).

    It's your money, and your time. Use it however you want friends!
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  18. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    After having obviously read none of it. :laugh:
  19. MeakGG

    MeakGG Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is like my 5th return buddy! I read every post, except for the poorly constructed comparisons to movie theaters! :inlove:
  20. Ego13

    Ego13 Cupcake-About-Town

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    This could only have been MORE believable if you included a couple stats. Maybe 67% of all games fail because they don't include 38 polygon count leaves on the trees.

    Unfortunately, I agree with the idea of what you said.
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