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Payment Model Discussion Mega-Thread

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by MiZTiiX, Jun 25, 2012.

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  1. SteveDiggler24

    SteveDiggler24 Cupcake-About-Town

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    He listed 3 games, I could list a lot more if that's what you need to accept the split in gaming experience in the MMORPG genre when speaking B2P/F2P or P2P.

    And of course Carbine is going to select the method which best supports their game and brings the best chances to be successful for years to come, fortunately for them the right model has been proven.

    Make no mistake about it, there is a "higher standard" that comes with subscription gaming as opposed to F2P/B2P games. If you've read this thread as closely as a lot of us have, then you've probably noticed the references to leveling and crafting differences, where in F2P/B2P examples with purchased benefits one can get max level/max crafting in less than 24 hours time. Yea, good luck with a subscription model with that type of substance. How is that even fun?

    P2P games provide an experience where one earns his way through the ranks. Successful P2P games make leveling a more difficult and time consuming process, and it's a damn good thing. How much more valuable is a maxed level character with this game design? P2P games provide unique, challenging content to experience solo, grouped, or in large raids because one of the core features of MMORPGs is joining others to cooperatively defeat the most difficult challenges the game has to offer.

    P2P games require more work, quite frankly. Don't take that too literally because by work, I mean entertaining experiences in a journey through the game. It's not a couple blinks, some activity at the cash shop, and wham bam.. I'm max level/craft. These types of games could not sustain a subscription, and if they tried I would I would regret the 27 days worth of money I've wasted after removing the game from my hard drive in 3 days.

    Work you say? yes, work.. and you know why it's so gratifying? The people that spend time in crafting, once they reach max level, have something valuable that people want. It's not so easy just to get and do everything you want. If you play MMORPGs, look at your character list, and think more of the money you've spent on each rather then the experience, work(fun), and progression of all aspects of the game for each, then it's time to find another game (and it's probably going to require a subscription).

    Then again, maybe that experience isn't for everyone. In that case, carry on cash shoppers.

    The movie theater comparisons weren't all bad, were they? I thought mine was fitting..

    Damn front row, my neck hurts!
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  2. Konoko

    Konoko Cupcake-About-Town

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    I tend to like the P2P model as I feel It seems to put less pressure on the maker of the game to come up with ways to squeeze money out of us! :)
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  3. Mange

    Mange New Cupcake

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    I'd rather pay a sub and not get charged for every bit of content added. Subs for a year and a half, then releases and expansion pack and continue the sub. I feel detached from F2P MMORPGs and the second im unhappy I just milk the game for what I can do for free before I quit.

    I find I'm more consistent with monthly sub games. Purely cosmetic cash shops have been known to squeeze a little bit out of me also.
  4. rivalcycle971

    rivalcycle971 Cupcake

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    Sub based games, at this point in time, are only worth it if you can provide tons of content- like, compete with WoW amount of content. Like, the opposite of what SWTOR did. Personally, when I'm subbed to a game, I feel like I'm obligated to play it or my sub fee is wasted- it's not a good feeling if you're not doing all that much in the game or you feel like you've completed most of what's offered- too many times have I sat AFK in a city logged in just because I feel I have to be. What's more, if people don't enjoy the game it'll die quickly and people will stop their subs.

    However, Sub based games do generally have the best communities and they are indeed high quality. Free-to-play games have fractured communities and uneven playing fields. Even footing among characters makes for a better experience and environment.

    Buy-To-Play with a cosmetic/housing shop is the perfect fit for an MMO these days. It works perfectly for Guild Wars 2- the communities are good, people are more likely to keep playing it as there is no sub fee-so they can hop on whenever they want rather than have to weigh the pros/cons of subscribing. If people love the game they'll continue to support it with housing and cosmetic options, and if the devs have made a great game they'll continue to be able to support the game and the players based on that.
  5. Faulted

    Faulted Cupcake

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    Normally I would say that I prefer P2P, just because of the stigma that has been around for the longest time about F2P and B2P MMOs being of lower quality. I think GW1 and GW2 set a pretty good example of how to do a B2P game well, even if I found the game fairly repetitive after a couple weeks of playing. I wouldn't mind seeing the game come out B2P, with a P2P option? Being subbed allows you access to all the content updates and whatever else they have planned, while just purchasing the game allows you to play and purchase content updates if you wish to do so.
  6. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    The majority of players in this chat seem to support the P2P model. They should as it is the "Even Ground" model for games. On the 1000th post of this thread I pointed out something though that I think should be brought up again. The majority of people that are looking forward to this game are interested in the P2P model, and you can not convince people from the f2p/b2p model to want anything else. They have their own reasons for not wanting it that really have nothing to do with quality of the game. It is an economical decision for them. It is pointless that we are still arguing the point!
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  7. SteveDiggler24

    SteveDiggler24 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Nothing is pointless avenged! This thread will run until an announcement is made, then best efforts will be made to continue it!

    But I disagree that B2P w/ Cash shop is the best method for MMOs, and here's why. They cannot possibly offer the expansions, content updates, and many improvements that a P2P model can, and I still believe that a cash shop negatively impacts a game's design.

    Gw1/Gw2 are very popular, no doubt, and have proven that this model can lead to a larger player base and what could be considered a "successful" game. I don't think any P2P argument since page 1 has been that F2P/B2P games are worthless. They make money.

    The argument being made is that as a consumer, and MMORPG genre fan, I believe the highest potential for Wildstar is achievable ONLY through the P2P model for reasons I will not bother to repeat.. that is unless you really want me to
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  8. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    This argument has been going around for so long that I actually disagree with you. The GW1 model shows absolutely no player success rate or loyalty whatsoever. It does not even show up in EA's yearly review of games of over 50k users list. That Gw2 is going after the same market is a cop out, and terrible.

    When gaming execs say that the market is saturated, and that there is a limited number of subscribers, they are not doing this to say that the market is changing. Smoke and mirrors. They are saying this because they are trying to promote themselves to a new crowd of gamers. They are specifically trying to capture a younger market of gamers, without access to credit cards, since lets face it there are a lot of people to bring into their market that have never played a subscription mmo in their lives. Look at swtor. There was a ridiculously high number of people that came into the game that had never played an mmo in their lives because it was basically the expansion of kotor. Developers are trying to attract niche sections of gamers now.

    Wildstar is no different in the fact that it is also trying to appeal to a niche set of gamers already. Unfortunately for the f2p users, the crowd that it seems they have been trying to pitch too, is the old school gamers, that loved gaming 8 years ago, when 40 man raids didn't just happen in wow, but also happened in everquest. When 100 man + raids happened in shadowbane and in daoc. When large scale organization was a factor no one cared about subscription prices. There was no alternative, so there was nothing to argue. Removing the P2P model from this game, will also remove that crowd. TBH, the f2p crowd is awful. It started in America, with Ragnarok, and Lineage 2 free servers, and it has expanded into face barf ever since then. It seriously needs to be buried.
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  9. Jereton Lauwerends

    Jereton Lauwerends New Cupcake

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    So basically what you're saying is that the F2P crowd that plays seriously and tries to buy things in-game (think of SWTOR CC) should pay for the few - and yes there are only a few left - who have stupid names and don't take the game seriously, honestly?
    Like what if people can't afford to play, should they just play with rocks then? The F2P option gives you a taste of what being a subscriber would be like, that's why more games have more money now, that's why WoW can make more patches, that's why you have a level cap raise at SWTOR, that's why games keep going even if people thing they have fallen down. I'm sorry but I terribly disagree, people who are presistent and happy with the F2P can play F2P, people who are willing/able to pay, should pay for the extra perks they want. Plus a game can't survive it's first year without a trial option. I mean The Secret World? SWTOR? When you subscribers are sick of it, you cast it away like it's nothing and when something new happens in game and you return you complain because of the full servers and all that.
    Because even IF you're so excited about this game, you will get bored if you've finished everything before the expected time. AND THEN WHAT? The game will fail because things delay and believe me, they always delay.

    Don't get me wrong I'm probably gonna subscribe too, because I really want this to be my first good MMO experience. But I would like people who can't afford to subscribe and seriously want to play to be able to join too. Because I wasn't able to afford subscription a few years ago and I liked being able to get through the whole content without being forced to buy something.
    So basically the best model is a F2P with subscription option, that way it'll have enough supplies to guide them over the first year. And then they can choose further.
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  10. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    If you really want to get into it. If you can not afford to play a video game, then you probably should be focusing on things other then video games. This was not my comment though. I said that some video game marketing executives are trying to sell investors over a "new"model. This model is targeting that crowd of players. If you want to go through this thread further. You can probably see 20 posts + where I explain it in a more "correct" response.

    To keep beating a dead horse the problem with the cash shop model is that if you add it you are going to remove the largest paying gamer base on the market. The crowd that will not play a game if advantages can be "purchased." That is as deep of a meaning as you need to look at. Over the last 2-3 days since my post on guild leadership I have been visiting a lot of guilds trying to sell the game to a lot of top end guilds. Top end guilds do not want "perks" for money. You can basically call this a second class game if that is the route they take, because it will be. I do not think so though, because the production values on this game are equal to a AAA sub model release.
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  11. Jereton Lauwerends

    Jereton Lauwerends New Cupcake

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    Euhm, you do know that this is NCsoft we're talking about right now?
    We both know what's gonna happen to the game.
    Subscription model will be brought out to only briefly after that release either a B2P option or a F2P, either way you will have the crowd, the buzz, especially for open beta. Look at all the games they've produced: AION, L2, GW2, Blade & Soul. It doesn't matter what 20 gamers think, while the rest of the world wants it to be like something else, either way like I said, something will disappoint you, tick you off and throw you back to World Of Warcraft where you belong.
  12. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    In short, yes. That method of thinking is why you can't have an open discussion and get anywhere when discussing if a game should be F2P or not. So many F2P advocates are those who want something for nothing, many of which continue on to join later conversations about how they are limited in play unless they pay.

    F2P systems are designed to separate the players; allowing money to be used to elevate a character above the others. Those who do not pay are simply there to provide the lower echelon of characters to compare against or to provide other human players to play with or against.

    P2P games do the same, though the separation and achievement comes only from playing the game. So within the game mechanics, no manner of outside real wealth matters to the fantasy of existing inside the game.

    Unless you evaluate things with the mindset that a fixed amount ($15.00) is going to be allocated to a game, then speak to which system you think makes for a better game F2P or P2P, you won't get a good answer. Opinions outside the specifics, those wanting to spend more or less money, are tainted because they desire to have something for nothing or desire to have external influence on in game advantages or perks.
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  13. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    L2 was P2P for 7 years?
  14. Jereton Lauwerends

    Jereton Lauwerends New Cupcake

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    You guys really made me laugh, all of these posts about the P2P option are so funny, name one game that doesn't have a trial version or a F2P/B2P option? Even if you could, how long do those games survive? Besides WoW there isn't any game that can survive long, especially in 2011 - 2013 where the market has basically been throwing us MMO's, even if they're all bad. It's hard to make something that will keep holding ground.

    The best way to keep this game up and running, is to make it a milk cow.
    Which basically means that it's not going to be P2P.

    But what is it now?
  15. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    Read the thread before you spout nonsense.

    UO - 15 years
    Eve- 10 years
    EQ- 10 years P2P
    DAOC - 10 Years
    Wow- 8 Years
    L2 - 7 Years
    Rift - 2 years.

    I could go more, but when competing against rhetoric I do not feel the need.
  16. Echelon

    Echelon Cupcake

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    RIFT.
  17. Jereton Lauwerends

    Jereton Lauwerends New Cupcake

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    But the fact you're not getting is that the content won't last forever, you've seen SWTOR. The level cap is 50 and it bothered players that they could not go on, so they unsubbed. TSW same story.
    I was subbed at TSW, the only thing that you heard were complaints about the game, about the bugs, about the fact that they're gonna unsub. That's why it went B2P because of the fact that subbers - not all of them - feel like the game owes them for subbing, it's like a 3D thing should just walk out of the screen and say "Hey you subbed, here's some extra content just for you."

    It's not gonna happen, the P2P model is long forgotten and idiotic, no game can survive with "loyal" subs.
  18. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    SWTOR was an MMO nightmare. I stopped playing swtor during beta when it was free after the 4th beta phase I was in. Great content, with terrible execution, by a money hungry developer, with a first time MMO studio.
  19. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    <Mod Monocle> Yes, we're still watching this thread. Please keep down the harsh remarks and keep things civil. Respect each others opinions, don't attack them just because you disagree with them. </Mod Monocle>
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  20. Jereton Lauwerends

    Jereton Lauwerends New Cupcake

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    Are you not getting the point? I was asking how many are still P2P RIGHT NOW.

    Subscription

    In November 2011 SOE announced EQ2 was going free to play following a similar path as Everquest II Extended. As of December 6, 2011, with the release of GU62 and Age of Discovery, Everquest II updated from being a subscription based game to a Free to Play / Subscription game as proven to be successful with Everquest II Extended.
    After initial purchase, Rift requires a monthly subscription fee for continued play, or buying prepaid game cards for a selected amount of playing time. However, in January 2012, Rift became free to play up to level 20 with some restrictions.[10][11]
    CCP hasn't announced any plans to move EVE to a free-to-play model, but I've seen far too many subscription MMOs go that way to think it won't happen eventually. Personally, I would love to see it happen, and I think a hybrid model like the one described above would be the way to do it.

    Ultima Online was "The first MMORPG to reach the 100,000 subscriber base, far exceeding that of any game that went before it".[3] Since Ultima Online's prime in 2003, the overall subscriber base has seen a steady decline. Subscriber numbers peaked at around 250,000 in July 2003, and in 2008 sat around 100,000 subscribers.[4] As of April 2008, Ultima Onlineheld a market share below 0.6% of the massively multiplayer online game subscriptions

    Mythic found themselves in a tough situation as they had never borrowed money before and had no credit rating to lease the Dell servers needed to run the game. After being denied the lease by Dell, Mythic had to purchase each and every server using their development funds

    With over 10 million subscribers as of October 2012,[11] World of Warcraft is currently the world's most-subscribed MMORPG,[8][12] and holds the Guinness World Record for the most popular MMORPG by subscribers.[13][14][15][16]
    As per 2013 investor call for the fourth quarter of 2012, official subscriber numbers are at 9.6 million.
    World of Warcraft is available as a free Starter Edition, which is free to play for an unlimited amount of time. Starter Edition characters are unable to gain experience after reaching level 20, and there are other restrictions in effect for Starter Edition accounts, including the inability to trade, use public chat channels, join guilds, or amass more than ten gold.[44]
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